LifeChurchTV

[OkieBear]

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.

[Jack]

osupa05 is right. I think if Mid went a couple of times, with an open mind, his opinion would change. He could see what God is doing in people's lives every experience, every week. I'd love for him to go try it out. Then if he doesn't like it, at least he would be speaking from experience rather than just from what he has heard.

Mid wouldn't come. His head would have to soften up some.

[Jack]

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.

Shoot, I'm embarassed for you. You have nothing better to do than get on here and debate people to the ground.

[Jack]

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

Oh, he cares for religion. So much that he worships Mary. But, that's another story. His head is too hard to give in to trying something new. He'd rather bow down to his priest, say his hail mary's, dunk his head in holy water, and light candles before service.

[Midtowner]

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.

The person and the method are different things entirely. One is debatable, whereas the other serves no purpose. Their methods are absurd, and yes, that's an attack -- just not a personal one.

You need to be able to recognize the difference.

[Midtowner]

Oh, he cares for religion. So much that he worships Mary. But, that's another story. His head is too hard to give in to trying something new. He'd rather bow down to his priest, say his hail mary's, dunk his head in holy water, and light candles before service.

You're entitled to your opinion on Catholicism. Many rituals are just that -- rituals. They are rooted in traditions dating back thousands of years having no religious basis whatsoever. Many rituals are full of symbolism and involve the practice of reverence, humility, etc. If you want to attack the reason for the rituals, fine. Be aware though that you're just spinning your wheels -- you're just being an anti-catholic individual who has no intelligent basis whatsoever for his opinion (unless you finally want to offer one?).

[Randy]

With all due respect, Mid, you do your share of personal attacks as well as attacks on LC and its staff (particularly Craig) and members. Calling LC's methods absurd is very much an attack. You are demeaning the beliefs of thousands of people. If you want respect and maturity shown to you, you have to give it to others.

You are correct, OkieBear. He certainly does his share of personal attacks, but he will never admit it. That's why many don't show much respect for him. Maturity and respect are not his strong points.

I didn't think that I was the only one that saw through him.

[osupa05]

Guys... why must you attack each other? Good grief! Every person is entitled to believe what they want. That's what's so awesome about God... He created us and gave us a choice whether or not to love Him back and follow Him... He doesn't force us into anything! Mid, I understand you not wanting to attend LC because it goes against catholicism, but doesn't that then mean that it is in a group with every other protestant church, traditional ones as well as ones who have "absurd" methods of sharing the gospel of Christ? So, then, why attack LC, just because it is non-traditional? You can argue against it's priniciples, if they contradict those which you believe, but the fact that LC uses a band to lead worship as opposed to an organ does not mean that it is not worship.... and believe me, God is the only entitiy being worshipped at LC, as should be the case at any church! Calling a church that preaches the Bible, and the bible only, as truth equivalant to a place that worships a man such as Muhammad is nuts! Places that preach things other than the Bible are doing just that, not preaching truth, a statement, for which I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for typing. I'm not sure why you would call LC a "self help" event, but yes, I would agree that it is a social event... God calls us to not give up fellowship with other believers! He gave us the church, the fellowship of believers so that we could support one another and grow together. If I didn't have Christians praying for me and holding me accountable, then life would be so much tougher than it already is... As for LC being a "hootinany", heck yeah... LC is a blast! I love to go! I know that the praise and worship is going to be awesome, I know that I'm going to get see some of my friends that I haven't seen all week, and I know that Craig's going to preach a message straight from the word of God... and that he's going to explain it in a simple enough way that even I can understand it... and sometimes when I leave, I leave knowing there's an area of my life that needs God's grace and mercy to take hold of it and change it... and sometimes when I leave I'm singing praise songs to God all the way home because I know that God is good all the time, and that He loves me... and that's the most awesome feeling in the world (and I'm sure I look pretty funny to all those people parked next to me at the stoplight, but I don't care!). Heaven's going to be the biggest hootinany there ever was and ever will be... so why not have fun on this journey (even at church!) home to heaven!

[Patrick]

I'm a big fan of LC, so please don't take this the wrong way. But, there's a good point I've heard mentioned. If LC suddenly did away with the fancy light shows, the drums and guitars, the loud speakers, the coffee shop, etc. would LC be what it is right now? You think people would still go?

Personally, I think a lot of people wouldn't go. Which leads me to a question....are people really there to worship God, or are they there for the entertainment? The only way we can really tell for sure is to take away all of the things I mentioned above. I think you'd find out real quick that many of the people there are only there for the show. That's the issue I have problems with.

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, we are in the final hours. We're in the midst of the church of Laodicea, and we simply have a lot of luke warm Christians, which are riding the fence. I think that's why LC appeals to a lot of people.....it allows them to committ only so far, and people don't have to connect a great deal...they're not forced into anything. They don't have to dig very deep. The message simply skims the surface.

Same thing can be said about the largest church in America, Lakewood Church in Houston. Osteen only preaches the positive parts of the Word. Sure, people like hearing that. But, at the same time, we're losing an entire generation because we're missing the deep and dirty truth.

Folks, it isn't all rosey and good. Sin is pretty ugly in fact, and the feel good churches like to forget that.

[Patrick]

BTW, LC does do a good work. Sometimes I feel they fail to go far enough though.

[Midtowner]

I'm a big fan of LC, so please don't take this the wrong way. But, there's a good point I've heard mentioned. If LC suddenly did away with the fancy light shows, the drums and guitars, the loud speakers, the coffee shop, etc. would LC be what it is right now? You think people would still go?

Personally, I think a lot of people wouldn't go. Which leads me to a question....are people really there to worship God, or are they there for the entertainment? The only way we can really tell for sure is to take away all of the things I mentioned above. I think you'd find out real quick that many of the people there are only there for the show. That's the issue I have problems with.

That's part of my objection Patrick at least on the general scale. It's that many if not most attendees of LC are not there for serious religious worship. They're there to have a social experience. That's not religion, that's entertainment, diversion, and playtime. The other part for me personally is the doctrinal difference.

And actually, OSUPA, the Catholic Church (for the most part) does not believe that the Bible is infallible. It's an imperfect relic describing the life of the son of God. It of course is VERY important, but it's not the end-all/be-all of our existance.

LC also does not buy into a lot of important Catholic principles like the Eucharist, etc. There are enough doctrinal differences for me to say that for a Catholic, attending LifeChurch would be a lot like attending a Mormon church, a Unitarian Church, etc. I'm on solid ground in saying this.

[Patrick]

Actually, Midtowner, I ride the fence on the issue, but I agree with you for the most part.

In some regards, I think LC is reaching people that otherwise wouldn't be reached by the typical pipe organ church service. But at the same time, I wonder if the only reason those folks are going is for the entertainment. Would they keep going if the drums and entertainment suddenly disappeared?

I've heard some say that heaven is going to be a bunch of celebrating, jumping up and down, and a big party. But, something inside me doesn't tell me that at all. God is a God of order. He is to be worshiped, yes, but I don't think that means dancing all around his throne and making fools of ourselves. In the Bible it's described more ceremonially. Just look at all of the structure that went into the building of the temple. Look at all of the ritual, etc. We've lost that with changes in culture, but I don't think God has changed since the Bible was written. Something tells me we're to be reverent before God, not throwing a big hullah party.

Look at how all royalty is treated. Do we dance all around our president? Nope. Any dealings with the president are pretty structured and ceremonial.

[Patrick]

One thing also to consider....the Catholic church hasn't changed a much with the culture as the Protestant Church has. Many of the rituals practiced in the Catholic church have been practiced for centuries. Goes to show me that back in the times of Jesus, and even before then, services were pretty structured and ordered. We've lost that reverence in many of our services today. It's all about respect, and I don't see how dancing around in flip flops on a stage, with music cranked up, and folks dancing and throwing pop corn is very respectful to a God that demands reverence.

[Patrick]

What upsets me about LC is how much of a joke they turn some of this stuff into. Baptism Bash? Give me a break. Baptism is a pretty serious thing, and I think having a big party, dunking people in swimming pools really loses the reverence and the true meaning of baptism.

I never thought I'd say this, but even some of the TV evangelists like Benny Hinn treat ordinances like baptism with more respect than some of our newer generational churches.

[Midtowner]

Wow Patrick, I wasn't aware that they did those things. That's persuasive stuff.

[Patrick]

One more thing, and the I'll get off my soap box awhile. I'm really curious to know how LC practices communion. I really really really place a lot of reverence on communion. I think watering down communion, and making a "bash" out of it, would only disrespect the holy sacrament it's supposed to be.

[Patrick]

Wow Patrick, I wasn't aware that they did those things. That's persuasive stuff.

My father-in-law goes to the OKC campus, so I attend every once in awhile. Last time I went I left feeling pretty bad about LC. One of the guys in my medical school class runs the light board at the OKC campus, and all he could do for the 20 minutes or so I talked to him was talk about their light board, how expensive it was, and how impressed he was with it. This really turned me off. Then, I got pretty upset because one of the band members (a guy that just graduated from med school last year) was up on stage barefoot playing his guitar. I just thought that was so disrespectful.

A few years back, I went during their "At the movies" series. I didn't have a problem with Craig, but I thought it was pretty disrespectful that folks took popcorn into the worship center, then threw it around while the band was on stage. I couldn't figure out whether I was at church, or had stepped into a movie theater by mistake....or even worse, a carnival.

I know this is all in a good effort to reach those that wouldn't ordinarly go to a normal church, but sometimes I think LC goes overboard on stuff. People need to know that God is to be respected, and He's not just about parties. Sometimes I leave LC thinking that Christianity is just a big party. They forget to mention that sin is real and that there's more to God than that.

Sure, Craig is real in his preaching, but even his preaching only skims the surface. I don't see how you could really learn the Bible in a setting like that. It's mostly just feel good preaching, and ways to live your life, and stuff like that. Very applicable preaching, but little meat.

[floater]

My simple opinion is that religion vs. religion debates are sad. Someone once described society as a marketplace for religion. Unfortunately, these "vendors" find they have to bad mouth the opposition in order to gain new "customers".

My opinion of these debates was nicely framed by Bono at a recent National Prayer Breakfast attended by President Bush, members of Congress, and foreign dignitaries. His message was God and aid to Africa, but this last line stuck with me the most:

"Yes, it’s odd, having a rock star here—but maybe it’s odder for me than for you. You see, I avoided religious people most of my life. Maybe it had something to do with having a father who was Protestant and a mother who was Catholic in a country where the line between the two was, quite literally, a battle line. Where the line between church and state was, well, a little blurry, and hard to see.

I remember how my mother would bring us to chapel on Sundays and my father used to wait outside. One of the things that I picked up from my father and my mother was the sense that religion often gets in the way of God."

[Patrick]

True...that's points out the other side of the coin that I mentioned, concerning Life Church....those folks that might never hear the Gospel in a typical church setting.

[osupa05]

The gospel is preached EVERY Sunday at LC! They are big on letting everyone know that the Bible is truth (which is where mid and I will never agree!), and I get my toes stepped on almost every Sunday by what the message that Craig preaches. He never aplogizes for preaching the Bible, and if he's answering a question with something that is his opinion becuase it's not directly answered in the bible, he will say that without hesitation that it is just that, his opinion! Yes, God demands respect and reverence and I'll be the first to admit that the very first time I went to LC I felt the same as Patrick.. that it was for show to attract people. But I went back one Sunday, and I was challenged like I never was at all the churches I had attended before going there... and I've been nothing but challenged to grow in my faith and walk with God since I've been going back! There's nothing irreverant about having fun in the presence of God. The services aren't disordered and chaotic (o.k., well I guess I missed the popcorn throwing experience), they are loud.... the were designed that way so that people will feel freedom to worship! I feel like I can sing at the top of my lungs praising my Creator and no one around will be bothered by the fact that I can't carry a tune! Craig never skims the surface to make people feel good... I challenge everyone who's in a relationship or wants to be in a relationship to download the "Going all the Way" series podcasts and see if the truth of what it says makes you feel good... because it won't! It will let you know God's stance on relationships and show you just what you need to work on in your life to grow! And what can be deeper than meeting in small group bible studies and delving into the word of God and baring your soul.. weaknesses and problems and all? And, that's something they stress that is an integral part of Christian living... getting plugged into small groups called lifegroups. And then there's the missions opportunities, which are numerous! I had the opportunity to go to NO to aid in Katrina relief... and the experience was indesribeable! I know that there will always be people against what LC stands for, but I challenge anyway who truly listens to what Craig preaches to say that it's merely "feel good, skim the surface" talk!

[Midtowner]

OSU, if we took away the music, lights, etc. would you still go to LC?

[OkieBear]

OSU, if we took away the music, lights, etc. would you still go to LC?

If you're being fed through biblical teaching and fellowship with small group ministries, and you have ample opportunities to serve God through missions, etc, what is wrong with capping it off with some great music and exciting worship? I grew up in a church that preached the truth of the bible, but my dad fell asleep every week! My parents are in their 70s, grew up in an evangelical church that is reverent (meaning people were afraid to get excited about God) and are the most God fearing people I know, and they absolutely love coming to LC when they visit from Wisconsin. If you take away the lights and music, Craig would still be a great preacher. If you don't feel comfortable singing, clapping and loudly praising God (like David did), then enjoy your church, where ever it is. But please refrain from bashing another church that is reaching thousands, soon to be hundreds of thousands, for Christ.

And osupa05 is right about Craig's preaching. He keeps it simple so unchurched and seeking people can understand it, but he doesn't water it down. I am challenged every week by Craig's message and the follow-up in my Life Group.

[Midtowner]

Okie, nice answer, but evasive.

Answer the question. Take away the entertainment value, and would you still attend LC?

[OkieBear]

Okie, nice answer, but evasive.

Answer the question. Take away the entertainment value, and would you still attend LC?

All other things being equal, probably. I have attended other boring churches out of a sense of duty and/or obligation, and their preachers weren't nearly as good as Craig. So now I'm blessed to have a church where I actually look forward to going every week. You'll never convince me that is wrong, no matter how lawyerly you are.