Bricktown change in attitude?

[Steve]

Eh. Automobile Alley also has far less retail presence and history than Bricktown. Chains are coming to Automobile Alley....

[Celebrator]

Celebrator, I understand your criticism. I'm curious about your opinion of the Red Dirt Emporium, Bricktown Marketplace and The Painted Door.

I like all of those places, they are a great start. I think unique can be mixed with familiar (read: chain) and they can co-exist and do so successfully.

[OKCHerbivore]

Yipes! It's all gone nuclear! Internet world!

I should have been more specific in describing some of the spots that seem to really speak well for bricktown, because of course (i only mentioned in passing, which was my bad) that there some exceptions to the general sense of "tawdriness" in the hood, and of course the aforementioned Bricktown Marketplace and Red Dirt Emporium (as well as Candy Mercantile, Bourbon St., Tapwerks, nice restaurants like Mantel and Mickey Mantle's, the banjo museum, Red Pin, Falcone's, etc. there's more) . Of course these places are valuable, well done, and hopefully will anchor the area for years and years. I know Archives just moved into BT Marketplace (I've been to Red Dirt and BT Market, Painted Door isn't really my deal) and I've loved that place since I was a kid when it was in Edmond. The movement of stuff like that into BT is very encouraging, and I'm sorry that didnt come across better in my post-I meant it to be pretty optimistic, especially when considering Deep Deuce and even some of the CBD will continue to be tied to the area and help balance it some with housing.

Perhaps the frustration some have with the neighborhood comes from the marginalization those spots face in the overall sense of Bricktown as a neighborhood, and as one that is not simply for weekend evening visits and out of towners. Of course there are exceptions, and as more offices and homes arrive it becomes more and more of a workaday AND weekend spot. That's the hopeful vision for any inner city neighborhood: to be able to provide a dense network of goods and services. That phrase sounds bland, but it is what helps to skeleton a neighborhood, while the skin and clothes are all manner of distinctives.

BT has done one of the best jobs of anywhere in OKC (of course, not much left in central OKC) of preserving historic buildings, allowing that image to color things, and of at least not using great storefronts to park cars inside (like AA does to a frustrating degree). The chain factor is a little high, but not over-the-top. Ironically, the idea of the area as a shopping magnet both intrigues me (adding a few chain anchors might be good to draw people in to the local spots that offer much more than the chains could anyways), but it also adds more competition with the local places. A tough balance anywhere.

I hope my hopes somehow show as desiring BT to have more of a connection to the current movements of the city in terms of localism, urbanism, and transit. I know the hub will likely be there-but when? How do we help the rest of the city to see the immense value of Red Dirt and BT Marketplace and the like? How does it both keep a vibrant nightlife, and provide needed clubs (i'm biased because I'm not a clubgoing type, but I love Tapwerks) while not seeming like the area full of nappy meatmarkets to the rest of the burgeoning city? Of course that's not the only story of the area, but I get constant fears of Navy Pier or Louisville's 4th st (might be 3rd? can't remember) nonsense that really just caters to an unfortunately vapid sort of entertainment thing (in Louisville it overshadows Thomas Merton's epiphany site. sad.).

BT was first to wake the city back up to itself: I remember it being Spaghetti Warehouse and blight, and that was it. It has roared into something lovely-I was thinking about it walking to classes today. Just like so many other things in our city, we can get frustrated to no end because we have actual hopes for it. I'm glad it elicits such emotional responses-it shows we care, and FWIW, we are on the same team. It's probably really accurate that because the "new" of BT has long worn off, people who seek the latest and greatest hot spot will get bored, but those folks don't build a lasting hood anyways. The hope is to blend the bursts of enthusiasm and big-$$ retailers and sales tax dollars (king in OKC) with some sort of functioning, daily neighborhood-where people don't feel the need to leave at night if they aren't going to a movie or dancing. And if they want to...they just have to walk a few blocks.

[Steve]

Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....

[Thunder]

Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....

I'm not sure, but I know that Bricktown will continue to grow. Slowly, yes due to armed agents carrying around loaded guns preventing Bricktown from gaining "Da Bomb" status, but we will get there one way or another.

[Just the facts]

Why would a new hotel in Bricktown be something that drives locals further away, yet a new hotel in Deep Deuce is such a great thing?

Let me clarify my original comment. I wasn't suggesting that a new hotel in Bricktown would drive away locals. I was trying to make the point that people who frequent Bricktown will be some of the same people who end up moving into Deep Deuce, AA, Film District, and Midtown. Once those people make the move from suburbia into their new urban location they will not need Bricktown because they will have their very own urban neighborhood to support. Midtown and Deep Deuce are adding urban residents faster than Bricktown ever thought about.

Let me explain it a different way. I was 17 when my friend Ron got his car first car. I went everywhere with Ron. We cruised for chicks, went camping and fishing, went to the mall - heck, I even helped him wash and wax it and chipped in some gas money. But then when I was 19 I got my own car. I didn't spend much time riding around with Ron after that and I sure didn't give him anymore gas money. I had my own car to wash, wax, and put gas in.

[MikeOKC]

Let me clarify my original comment. I wasn't suggesting that a new hotel in Bricktown would drive away locals. I was trying to make the point that people who frequent Bricktown will be some of the same people who end up moving into Deep Deuce, AA, Film District, and Midtown. Once those people make the move from suburbia into their new urban location they will not need Bricktown because they will have their very own urban neighborhood to support. Midtown and Deep Deuce are adding urban residents faster than Bricktown ever thought about.

Let me explain it a different way. I was 17 when my friend Ron got his car first car. I went everywhere with Ron. We cruised for chicks, went camping and fishing, went to the mall - heck, I even helped him wash and wax it and chipped in some gas money. But then when I was 19 I got my own car. I didn't spend much time riding around with Ron after that and I sure didn't give him anymore gas money. I had my own car to wash, wax, and put gas in.

I think you're taking neighborhood loyalty a bit too far. You're saying that people who live in DD will abandon Bricktown "because they'll have their own neighborhood to support." That's a fantasy. How many people sit around and decide that they aren't going to go up north May Ave because they need to "support" their own neighborhood out Northwest Expressway? If there's something I want - I go. I don't give a second thought to what district or neighborhood it's in. This would be times ten for these new walkable neighborhoods in DD and Bricktown. The boundary lines are invisible and people won't give a thought to "betraying" one or the other to go where they want to go. The growing areas around downtown aren't exactly Manhattan. In DD and Bricktown and AA, you can still almost scream at one end and be heard at the other.

[Just the facts]

MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.

[Skyline]

Would all of the Bricktown worries be solved, if a developer announced today that they will build a 250 unit apartment project in Bricktown?

[BoulderSooner]

bricktown .... Brix (local) bricktown brewery(local) The Mantle(local) bolaro (local) lots and lots of local and oklahoma places in bricktown

[Urbanized]

Are they the same? Let's take Automobile Alley as an example - Iguana's (local), Sara Sara Cupcakes (local), Panchinko Parlor (local), Red (local), Hideaway (Oklahoma). Are there any others in AA? Okay, so every single restaurant in AA is local or Oklahoma.

Bricktown has chains like Abuelos, Zio's, IHOP, McDonald's with some Oklahoma and local places also.

So, I guess the reason people say AA is more local than Bricktown is because AA is more local than Bricktown.

You missed the nuances of my post.

Does Hideaway count as a chain? I would guess so, although that doesn't stop me from going to the one in AA about 4 times a week. Is it that different from Oklahoma-founded Zio's? Food-wise, of course. And yeah, Hideaway only has in-state locations at the moment, much like Zio's did when it arrived in Bricktown. Next year, Hideaway plans to start expanding into Texas. 10 years from now, when Hideaway has locations in 5 states, will that mean it is a bad business to have in AA? Or does it mean that expanding into Automobile Alley helped a great business to grow?

Abuelo's? That location was the first location outside of Texas for a small, family-owned group (I think they had three restaurants in west Texas in '94). It was an exciting time when they located in Bricktown, I promise you. And the performance of that store helped create the Abuelo's chain.

The Bricktown Brewery is unique, recently became VERY Oklahoma-focused... ...and part of a larger restaurant group. Wait? What's that you say? So are Red Prime, Iguana, and Pachinko? If Iguana qualifies as local (it obviously does), how come you didn't list Earl's Rib Palace? Heck, the same guy owns BOTH PLACES. Coach's? Local. Tapwerks? LOCAL.

Sara Sara qualifies? Obviously. How come you didn't mention Bricktown's Coco Flow?

Red Prime (one of my favorite places in town)? How many restaurants are a part of the Good Egg Group? You want me to list them? I can, because I love every one of them. But does being a part of a group make them less special or unique? Not in my mind. I guess that means you should have mentioned The Mantel when talking about Bricktown's makeup. LOCAL.

In fact, there are but a few places in ALL of the inner city that AREN'T part of larger restaurant groups. Excluding the wealth of independent Asian places, bars that incidentally serve food, and CBD lunch-only places, I could quickly only come up with a few: VZD's, Ludivine, the Museum Cafe, Joey's Pizzaria, Trattoria, Stella, Deep Deuce Grill, Sage, Tapwerks, and Nonna's. The last two are in Bricktown, and NEITHER were mentioned in your list. I'm sure there are more, but my point remains; if you're somehow disqualifying places like Bricktown Brewery, Coach's, Chelino's and Earl's because they are members of a larger group, you'd better get busy disqualifying places in the rest of the downtown districts too.

For the record, I think being a part of a small, local restaurant group is a strength. It allows for a new place to find its footing, helps create buzz when a new place opens, and provides the resources of other professionals within the organization when developing a concept.

Also for the record, though my business interests are in Bricktown my heart is actually probably more in Automobile Alley and elsewhere. I'm not dogging any of these places or restaurants; only illustrating the double-standard applied to Bricktown. You did it yourself in your post by failing to mention all of the LOCAL places here, dismissing them as "some Oklahoma and local places too."

[Just the facts]

Would all of the Bricktown worries be solved, if a developer announced today that they will build a 250 unit apartment project in Bricktown?

It would help.

[Urbanized]

bricktown .... Brix (local) bricktown brewery(local) The Mantle(local) bolaro (local) lots and lots of local and oklahoma places in bricktown

You're absolutely right. Local/Oklahoma-owned restaurants in Bricktown (both group-owned and completely independent) include: Brix, Bricktown Brewery, The Mantel, Bolero, Falcone's, Earl's Rib Palace, Coach's, In The Raw, TapWerks, Zio's, Chelino's, Bricktown Burgers, Crabtown, Nonna's, and even Toby Keith's (hey, if Charleston's and Red Rock qualify, so do they).

I would also make a case for Mickey Mantle's when it comes to "local flavor." Although they are admittedly part of the small Dallas Kirby's group, that is the only Mickey's in existence, and they run it in many ways as the flagship of their group. After 11 years their ties here run deep, and the owners are here multiple times per month; very hands-on. I also think it's pretty cool that when people take a doggy bag out of a Kirby's in Dallas or Houston, one side has the Kirby's logo and lists the four or five Texas cities they're in; the other has a Mickey's logo and says only: "Oklahoma City."

Throw in Coco Flow, and a large number bars which are almost exclusively Oklahoma-owned, and it is hard to make the argument that you can't get TONS of local flavor in Bricktown. And yet people make that argument regularly in this forum.

Funny thing is, I believe if for example the Pearl's group were to open a new, unique Pearl's concept in AA, it would universally be lauded as more great new local, but the unique Crabtown concept in Bricktown somehow remains "a chain restaurant" in people's minds. Simply put, people are fickle, Bricktown is old news, and folks apply their standards in an unequal fashion to suit their arguments. Blinders.

[Ginkasa]

MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.

Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?

[J. Pitman]

It would help.

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.

As someone who works in Bricktown, I can assure that things are going pretty well down here.

Is it everything that everyone wants it to be of course not. Interestingly enough the most vocal detractors of Bricktown are the people who choose not to patronize the district.

[MDot]

Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?

Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?

[Ginkasa]

Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?

The entire post...?

MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.

He doesn't mention Bricktown specifically in his post, but he's replying to MikeOKC's post about people not abandoning Bricktown because they live in DD or whatever.

[Just the facts]

$2 or $20 - it doesn't matter. The price wasn't the point.

[Just the facts]

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Successful at 'what' is the question. Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood. It is not a live/work/play area, and for the most part, will probably never be. And that's okay.

[MDot]

Guess I missed that Ginkasa but why it matters I have no clue.

[Ginkasa]

I think it is a point. No, I won't go out of my way for a $2.00 item. I will, however, go another "neighborhood" if there's a particular restaurant or other hotspot I want to go to. I live in Moore. That doesn't mean I don't go somewhere else for entertainment once in a while.

Sticking with Deep Deuce and Bricktown specifically: I don't think DD is so far way (they're connected!) that someone won't walk to Mickey Mantle's or Zio's or Skky Bar or whatever if they have a hankerin'.

[Rover]

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.

That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.

[J. Pitman]

Successful at 'what' is the question. Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood.

I guess I should have said "worries" as that was what I was referring to. Bricktown will soon have have close to 550 hotel rooms. The busiest hotel in the state is in Bricktown. Multiple family can go elsewhere. Bricktown will also benefit from the Aloft and Level.

What exactly are your "worries" with regards to Bricktown?

[Ginkasa]

That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.

Possibly includes Thunder games?

[MDot]

Possibly includes Thunder games?

The Thunder games I went to I parked in Bricktown a majority of the time. Maybe that's also a factor like you suggested.