Obtaining construction plans through the City of OKC

[Pete]

I do my best to stay abreast of all the new building permits and all other development news around town. When I find something interesting, I scour the Internet looking for renderings and other details, then post them on this site.

However, there are some projects that are issued a building permit or even under construction and yet there are not renderings, site plans or further details to be found. Often, I'll just pick up the phone or drop an email to the developer/owner/architect/construction company but many times they aren't helpful.


My question is: What type of access to building plans does a citizen have? If I was to turn up at City Hall, could I request to view/copy/photograph the plans?


Thanks in advance to anyone that can answer these questions and/or provide information on the proper process.

[SkyWestOKC]

Not entirely sure, but it's my understanding that you can request copies for $10. Or maybe I am thinking of public construction documents/bid packages.

[Pete]

Looking through the Development Center's requirements for a building permit, they are to be filed with 3 copies of detailed plans, including: a site plan; all dimensions and uses of each room; and exterior elevation (rendering) among other things.

I know the summarized building permit data is public information and it is readily available through an on-line database.


What I'm wondering is what is the public's right to access the detailed plans? Also, is it possible to obtain copies and/or photograph them? How specifically do you go about getting to this information?

(If I don't get a good answer here soon I'll call the City tomorrow and then post what I learn. Then, I may be enlisting some volunteers!)

[SkyWestOKC]

It should be prefectly legal. I am sure it falls under the open records act. The reason they probably don't post them is the time involved in putting each and every building permit packet online.

I'll volunteer if you need.

[Pete]

Thanks SkyWest!

I bet it's a matter of having the specifics on hand (like the address or permit #) and having to submit a written request. There may even be a charge for pulling the plans.

I have a long list of projects but if someone was to go in well-organized (like having all the building permit numbers) I imagine you could just take digital photos.


BTW, the main culprit is Chesapeake. They have no less than 8 buildings under construction and there aren't renderings or detailed plans anywhere. I contacted Rand Elliott and he was very nice but referred me to Brent Gooden (Gooden Group PR) and he didn't even bother returning my call.

But there are a bunch of other projects that are similar or simply don't provide the name of the business going in; the permit is often just in the contractors name.

[SkyWestOKC]

If you can call the city and found out, I'll go do the dirty work.

[USG'60]

Thanks SkyWest!

I bet it's a matter of having the specifics on hand (like the address or permit #) and having to submit a written request. There may even be a charge for pulling the plans.

I have a long list of projects but if someone was to go in well-organized (like having all the building permit numbers) I imagine you could just take digital photos.


BTW, the main culprit is Chesapeake. They have no less than 8 buildings under construction and there aren't renderings or detailed plans anywhere. I contacted Rand Elliott and he was very nice but referred me to Brent Gooden (Gooden Group PR) and he didn't even bother returning my call.

But there are a bunch of other projects that are similar or simply don't provide the name of the business going in; the permit is often just in the contractors name.

Try James Pickle of Smith and Pickle, the construction contractors for CPK

[Bill Robertson]

It should be prefectly legal. I am sure it falls under the open records act. The reason they probably don't post them is the time involved in putting each and every building permit packet online.

I'll volunteer if you need.

I'm curious to see how this turns out. Building permits are public record. The plans however are property of the individual or entity that is having the building built. If they don't want the public to see what the floor plan is I'm not sure the public has the right to see plans. For instance, if I'm building a building and I spent $5000 having plans developed I don't know if I like the idea of the city letting anyone have any kind of copy of any part of my plans without my permission.

[Double Edge]

My guess is they are public record if you pushed the issue but since no one does, it's going to throw them for a loop to accommodate. You would more than likely have to go there to review them and stand at the plan submission counter. Some architects make a big deal about their plan sheets being copyrighted. Which is stupid,IMO, the design yes, the drawings not so much. That probably wouldn't hold up if the drawings are in fact legally public record. I doubt the city has the facilities to do much repro for the public.

[Pete]

Try James Pickle of Smith and Pickle, the construction contractors for CPK

I'm sure he is not authorized to release plan information to the public; heck even Rand Elliott himself would not share renderings of buildings well under construction.

But it's also a bigger issue than just the CHK properties... I've made a few calls this morning and am waiting to hear back from the planning department.

[Midtowner]

It clearly falls under the Open Records Act. The city could, I suppose, potentially outsource the management of these documents and certain projects to OKC Alliance, which is probably not going to respond at all to an Open Records request, but I doubt it. Sounds like you're barking up the right tree. Do keep in mind that they can charge you copying costs up to (I think) .25 per page.

[Double Edge]

.25 for letter or legal size copies maybe. The going rate for plan sheets is a lot more than two bits, more like $2-4 per sheet depending on size, quantity, if they are from digital files, etc. A small project might cost you $50 to 100 at a repro place. A larger one can easily run several hundred.

AFAIK, the city still does not ask for digital plan sets.

[Bill Robertson]

I'm still anxious to hear what the city says. I'll be somewhat surprised if plans for private buildings are considered public record, even if they're in the possession of the city.

[Pete]

I'm still waiting for a call back...

It occurred to me that several city agencies publish detailed construction plans, such as the Downtown Design Review Committee and it's counterpart in Bricktown, the Planning Commission, the OKC Riverfront Authority, etc. Every month those entities (and more) publish advance agendas to the Internet and contain detailed site plans and renderings. However, there are many projects that don't fall under the purview of these agencies; the Planning Commission only publishes the projects that are requesting some sort of variance, for example.

So, lots of this stuff is already put out there in the public domain. And if you didn't already realize this, current photos and site plans of every structure in Oklahoma County (as well as all sales and assessed values) are on the County Assessor's site. You can even see detailed mortgage documents and deeds dating back to the 50's.


All this stuff gets out there eventually, it's just the recently announced and under construction projects that I would like access to sooner rather than later.

[Double Edge]

Part of that need or want is attempted to be filled by the various building and construction news agencies (Dodge, Bid News, iSqFt, SW Construction News) but they are not the free info source I think you are looking for. Lots of projects happen without them reporting or having plans too, particularly with private projects.

[Double Edge]

http://fwdodge.com/ is around $2K a year to start. http://www.isqft.com/new/ is about the same. Dodge and SW news did have just a report you could get for less, without plan access possibilities, but I don't know if they still offer that. (I don't know if SW Construction News is still in business either. The building is still there with a sign on it.)

[MikeOKC]

Pete, I understand the frustration. There isn't a lot they don't refer to Brent Gooden, and that's a joke. A dead end. However, since it's been brought up here - expect a phone call.

We're talking Chesapeake here. A kingdom (they think) unto themselves. The answer you get will depend on the day you ask. They'll tell you something on Monday and by Thursday swear they never said it.

[jclick]

Looking through the Development Center's requirements for a building permit, they are to be filed with 3 copies of detailed plans, including: a site plan; all dimensions and uses of each room; and exterior elevation (rendering) among other things.\

This applies to commercial permits. Residential building permits only require 2 copies of floor plans and site plan.

It should be prefectly legal. I am sure it falls under the open records act. The reason they probably don't post them is the time involved in putting each and every building permit packet online.

We're just now to the point of being able to request inspections online. Submitting plans in digital format is likely a matter of time, but even when the City is equipped for that, it's going to be a long time for the majority of builders and contractors will be well-equipped to submit in this format.

You can search any residential or commercial permit here:
http://www.okc.gov/access/

[bluedogok]

.25 for letter or legal size copies maybe. The going rate for plan sheets is a lot more than two bits, more like $2-4 per sheet depending on size, quantity, if they are from digital files, etc. A small project might cost you $50 to 100 at a repro place. A larger one can easily run several hundred.

AFAIK, the city still does not ask for digital plan sets.

No city that I have ever dealt with will accept digital documents for the "legal permit set", they always have to be hard copies. Now I have sent PDF files in for preliminary reviews and such so individual reviewers deal with them but as for many things in the government and legal world, they still like their paper.

[easternobserver]

Any document that is submitted as part of a permit application, including the plans, is a record and is thus subject to record retention requirements and the Open Records Act. Furthermore, the relevent construction codes (IBC, IRC, etc) specifiy parameters for maintenance and public inspection of construction documents.

Now- as to the issue of who owns the plans. The plans become property of the City once submitted, as they are subject to record retention requirements. The content of the plans, however, is the intellectual property of the designer (unless assigned to another party, such as the property owner) and is thus protected against unauthorized use.

Everyone has a right to view the plans at no charge (unless there is a need to "research" or the request is being made for commercial purposes) during normal business hours (subject to reasonable policies and procedures). The amount that can be charged for copying of documents larger than 81/2 x 14 is not set by the statute but must be reasonable and part of a posted fee schedule.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...p?CiteID=80292

[Pete]

Thanks again for all the input. I'm still working on this but thought I'd provide an update.

I'll spare the details of how I got this far (lots of phone calls and emails) but here's the crux:

1. Anybody can go to the Plan Review Service Center on the 8th floor of 420 N. Hudson and request to see the file of any permit. It would help greatly if you already have the city-issued permit number (can easily obtain from their on-line database). However, you can only request one at a time and copies are $1.22 per page.

2. If you have multiple requests, you have to contact the City Clerk's office (cityclerk@okc.gov) and request a Research Project. I've already sent them an email with about a dozen building permit numbers and am waiting to hear back as to the exact process/forms and cost.

[RadicalModerate]

If the response from 420 N. Hudson doesn't involve at least three or four trips up and down the elevators and/or stairs leading to and from the 8th Floor at that location I would question the authenticity of the information provided. At whatever cost. =)

And, if you think about it, providing copies of plans that cost multiple thousands of dollars to produce--for a buck and a half a page--is sort of like . . . counterfeiting or plagiarism. Isn't it? =)

[bluedogok]

And, if you think about it, providing copies of plans that cost multiple thousands of dollars to produce--for a buck and a half a page--is sort of like . . . counterfeiting or plagiarism. Isn't it? =)

It only depends on the intended use of those documents, I am not really concerned about it. In most projects there ends up being a hundred or more sets or partial sets printed for any project for many different reasons. In most cases people are not going to design an exact copy of something, although it has happened in the past but they still had to hire someone to do the copying and stamp the drawings and for someone to do that says more about the supposed professional than it does anyone else.

[Pete]

Just to clarify, all that is typically submitted for a commercial building permit is a rendering, a site plan, a general idea of how rooms will be laid out and a list of materials. You don't have to submit detailed blue prints or construction drawings.

All I want to see is how these buildings are going to look once complete; hence the request for renderings and site plans. These are kept as a part of the permit file and can be requested and copied for a small charge.

Keep in mind that the county assessor keeps photos and floorplans for every single structure in Oklahoma County -- including private homes. All of this is easily accessible to anyone that bothers to happen upon their site.

These requests are just wanting to see this information once the permit is filed, rather than waiting until the building is complete.

[bluedogok]

You have to have a lot more than that for most commercial building permits, it really depends on the work being proposed. I've never seen that simple of a package be approved without asking for more, I know that I had a lot more than that for JDM Place. Now committee reviews can have less documentation and the pretty picture drawings work better with that but it is just one step along the way.