Bricktown change in attitude?

[Just the facts]

If they add residential then yes Bricktown will continue to thrive. That is what I said. However, for every hotel they add, that many locals will find somewhere else downtown to spend their time. In the future, as Deep Deuce continues to develop and housing in Midtown get established those people won't be making a stop in Bricktown before or after a Thunder game, they will have their own neighborhoods to support.

[foodiefan]

Here here, this site definitely has favoritism depending on the poster. Bricktown appears to be willingly choosing the path of West End, and to no surprise. OKC rarely choses to learn from history

Metro. . .knowing you like to be precisely correct and all. . . "Hear, hear is an expression used as a short, repeated form of hear him, hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker. It is often incorrectly spelled "here here".

[metro]

Thanks!

[OKCHerbivore]

I work in Bricktown (at ACM@UCO) and take my couple of days a week of walking from parking to the school to ponder why Bricktown feels like it does. I think it could still go the way of the West End, if it continues to try and be an entertainment ghetto only. It certainly works as one, but mostly for out of town folks. There has to be a balance occur at some point to where the neighborhood becomes an actual neighborhood. The interests in the area are so top-heavy with expensive properties and companies that there is no accountability to more mundane uses of the neighborhood, which matter to residents and locals. Of course this tax base is more reliable, but not more lucrative in a lot of ways (besides property taxes and such-which might not affect developers all that much outside of rents/leases).

I walk past the numerous misspelled-on-purpose bars and clubs, and I know that the city needs these things. But I still marvel at the waste of land and building space that keeps the canal from feeling like anything more than a prop in the background of a business. It feels too sparse-and for locals, the businesses, with some key exceptions, seem more like tawdry tourist shops than anything useful to a local. If there's anything we are seeing now, it's that localism has much more steam than theme-park like neighborhoods, even if the result is the same. For an out of town guest to "feel local," like they are participating in a "real" OKC is just as potent a tourist reality as an "entertainment" district, AND it helps locals not feel so icky to visit. Bricktown has quite a bit of character as it is-trying to trump up the "theme" of the area just makes it feel a little overcooked. People can see that the building was a factory, no need to call it The Factory.

I do think the grocery in Deep Deuce/ Triangle will help Bricktown, only if it seems still a little unlikely that people in those hoods will walk (OKCers walk!?) all the way to AA or Midtown, or wait the 45 min between busses to jump over, so Bricktown will more or less have a grocer (I will be there a lot, and grab groceries there on the way home up north central). The integration of Deep Deuce/Triangle and Bricktown will be good for them all, I'm hoping. Just imagine when an intermodal transit system finds a home nearby...(in 50 years?).

I'm glad to work down there, and I keep warming to the area each week. Here's to filling in the space between the cheeseball clubs with pubs, homes, vital retail, and workaday stuff. It's amazing how sexy a hardware store can be if you live near it, and can walk to get a tool-not drive 15 minutes.

[Celebrator]

So well put, OKCHerbivore. We moved to the OKC from Celebration, FL, a new urban/touristy neighborhood adjacent to Walt Disney World in Orlando. My wife and I loved living there, but rarely patronized the businesses that were "downtown" because we had no use for them! The locals don't need a doll shop for heaven's sake!

We always take visitors to Bricktown, but never hang out down there with them to eat, and we never hang out down there if we don't have visitors from out of town...why? The retail down there is not worth window shopping and it lacks a "real feel" as you alluded to above. Bricktown needs the kind of shops that are in the Plaza District! Even getting some well-known typically mall-based retail stores to move down there would attract more locals to shop and hang out there. (It works, see Winter Park, FL's Park Ave which has Restoration Hardware, Pottery Barn plus locally-based shops and restaurants: http://www.insideflorida.com/detail/park-ave/

Bricktown just doesn't feel much more than an attraction right now (And keeping with the Orlando comparisons, Bricktown feels more like Downtown Disney, rather than Park Ave. and way more locals hang out at Park Ave.), and I long for BT to be a dynamic neighborhood to go down and spend time and money in. I believe it will be just that someday with the right planning and guidance by and from all stakeholders.

[Just the facts]

Bricktown needs to decide pretty soon if it wants to be the OKC version of Fisherman's Wharf or the Marina District. It can't be both.

Celebrator - I cringe everytime I head Disney mentioned as an example for anything urban related. Thanks for posting that link to Park Ave, the wife has been dying to do something so maybe a drive down to Winter Park might be in the cards soon. When I want my urban fix we usually head down to St Augustine, park once, and walk/shop/eat for hours.

[Steve]

Celebrator, I understand your criticism. I'm curious about your opinion of the Red Dirt Emporium, Bricktown Marketplace and The Painted Door.

[Larry OKC]

OKCHerbivore: great post..the only thing I might take exception is to things like the "Factory". it isn't always obvious what the building was originally used for and I like the nod to our history. Seems like we have so little of it left and more vanishing.

[ljbab728]

OKCHerbivore: great post..the only thing I might take exception is to things like the "Factory". it isn't always obvious what the building was originally used for and I like the nod to our history. Seems like we have so little of it left and more vanishing.

I agree, Larry. It's similar to the Ghiradelli Square building in San Franscisco. The name pays homage to it's past use and history.

[bombermwc]

An easy way to fix some of this is to put a destination business in that locals want to frequent. Something like Dave and Busters would have been a good draw to get people to go to Bricktown some time other than the weekend. Of course, the large footprint would make it hard to fit in since I believe anything that goes in there needs to be able to be urban and go UP, not OUT. But hey, I'm sure something could be figured out in a multi-story configuration to make it work. What better use for some of those upper floors in those old warehouses than the game rooms? The square foot per floor in something like the Hunzicker building would be a great fit. That way you can seperate the "kid" games and the "adult" games. Food on ground floor, kid games next floor up, pool/darts/bar up the following upper floors.

I just think something along that concept would be a good draw. You either eat or see a movie right now. And everything in lower Bricktown is as suburban as a strip mall...drive up, shop, leave. Had we actually gotten the Sega Gameworks, maybe that would have been a draw for some stuff too. But we're always seeing that it's difficult to keep retailers in there....sound familiar (automobile alley). I don't think it should ever turn into a place where Old Navy is....same argument I had against it for AA. We really need unique destinations that aren't available in other places. Heck, throw in some laser tag (there are only like 2 others in town now...far NW and almost Norman, so it's a good middle location). SOMETHING to bring people in on a normal day. Otherwise we're doomed to the dead after 5 Sunday-Thursday curse.

[betts]

I hate to keep bringing up the Old Market in Omaha, but that's what I wish Bricktown were more like. Here's a link to the retail there. The only chain, I believe, is the Overland Sheepskin Co. Everything else is local retail. The shops are scattered throughout the district, with great local restaurants in between. And then the flowers.....businesses have huge awnings lined with flower boxes that have their own irrigation system. It's a really nice destination and the unique restaurants and shops make it as appealing for locals and visitors.

http://www.oldmarket.com/results.aspx?cat=40

Perhaps when there are more residents living near Bricktown, we'll get more retail. It would be a great draw for conventioneers as well, so I really don't understand why the chamber doesn't do more to promote retail there.

[Rover]

Until the focus changes from real estate speculation to actual development, Bricktown will not progress very quickly and will stay in jeopardy of being passed by. The whole idea of developing the canal, ballpark, etc. was to create development, not to enable non-value added speculation. I happen to think that passing on Funk's proposed development was a signal that it was only going to be an entertainment district. I think Btown is at a very serious crossroads and needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

[Pete]

Some pretty big things are coming to Bricktown that will likely spur further development: the streetcar and the multi-modal transit center.

I also think that when the projects in Deep Deuce are complete in another year or two, the success of the living units there in particular may finally force BT over the hump when it comes to apartments.

In the meantime, I don't see anything big happening there, other than the proposed hotels. I'm sure it will continue to rock along as it has for a couple of decades now.

[Just the facts]

I guess it might be coming down to a tortoise and hare deal. BT jumped out to an early lead because of MAPS spending but it seems MAPS money became the life blood. Meanwhile, not a MAPS dollar was spent in Deep Deuce and while it started out slow it seems to have the stamina to make it to the end first, and by end, I mean an actual established neighborhood with no vacant land.

[Pete]

To be fair to Bricktown and the owners/developers there, we've seen very little renovation of old buildings anywhere in OKC, and that's about all there is in BT.

No matter your opinion of the Centennial and the rest of the Lower BT developments, they have all been a commercial success. But that was all new construction, as is everything in Deep Deuce.

We've seen renovation to living units in Midtown but on a pretty small scale.

The economics of renovating old buildings into new living units and being to do it profitably still doesn't add up. It's far easier for restaurant/bar space because the owner can demand much more rent.

I think lots of people want to renovate those old buildings but can't make the numbers work. Considering the shrinking amount of downtown office space, it may be time to look at converting some of those upper levels to offices.

[Urbanized]

Funny, when we opened Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium and the Bricktown Marketplace over the past four years, we worked very hard not to be "icky" or "tawdry," but I guess we somehow missed the mark. This despite being the first store (the emporium) in the state that I am aware of to exclusively carry Oklahoma-themed and Made-in-Oklahoma items. We were being painfully aware (we thought) of appealing to not just visitors (who abound in Bricktown and are easy to target), but also locals (who still abound, but are more fickle and diverse in tastes and more difficult to target).

Local movement? We carry more Made-in-Oklahoma food items than nearly anyplace I know of, and have been doing so since 2007, before the "local" movement had picked up much steam if any in this market. We were one of the first members of KeepItLocalOK and have tirelessly tweeted, Facebooked and whatever else to anyone else who would listen about the virtues of Local. We proudly feature Oklahoma music and Oklahoma musicians. We were the first - and longtime - exclusive sponsor of the Oklahoma Rock Show on The Spy FM, hosted by two ACM faculty members, Ryan LaCroix and Lacey Lett. We invited local musicians to play in the store, and on our patio. Separate from us, the Chevy Bricktown Showcase has featured TONS of local musicians throughout the district for some time now. I have and intend to continue to employ ACM students.

We reached out to the Oklahoma Film and Music office to help us put Oklahoma films in the store, and recently started a dialog with DeadCenter about working more closely with them. We've partnered with the Oklahoma City Museum of Art on merchandise. Since day one we have partnered with Full Circle Books to have a great selection of books telling the story of our city and our state.

When we started the Bricktown Marketplace, we opened the door for local retailers to dip their toe in the Bricktown market. Still acutely desiring to "keep it local," we reached out to other districts in the city so that there would be representation of more than Bricktown when visitors arrive here. In some cases we offered this space at a drastic reduction in rent, because we wanted so much to include this diversity and allow visitors to sample ALL of Oklahoma City's offerings. I'm proud to say that when we opened we had vendors from the Plaza District (DNA Galleries, JuJu Gallery, Collected Thread and Istvan Gallery participated), Midtown, and Stockyards City. We still have a Plaza booth, maintained by DNA Galleries. Every one of our approximately 50 vendors is from Oklahoma, and most within the metro. The 6,000 sq ft we have there represents the largest locally-owned retail floorplate in ALL of downtown Oklahoma City.

But that's OK. Now that I know we are never going to be anything more than "icky" or "tawdry," it relieves a lot of pressure on me. I think I am going to put together a clearance sale on all of my thoughtfully-curated merchandise, and turn all of that cash into rubber tomahawks and made-in-China war bonnets, both of which I have until now refused to carry, but which know for a FACT I could sell by the container-load.

[Steve]

OKCHerbivore, I'm going to bet you've not stepped foot in the marketplace, emporium or painted door. But if you have, maybe you can explain a bit more as to why you would think they are "icky and taudry," or if you were referring to other shops.

[Just the facts]

Urbanized, I have you thought of opening a store in Deep Deuce that carries the food items you have available? If not already, there will soon be 1,000 people living there that have to eat everyday and most of them have above average income for their age demographic.

[Urbanized]

In a word, no. Native Roots Market will be opening soon in Deep Deuce, carrying many if not most of the food items I do. And by the way, I welcome that and I'm very excited by it. But based on my partnerships and our current economy of scale, I'm pretty married to Bricktown locations for the foreseeable future. Also, I'm not really in the grocery business (though I carry a bunch of MIO food products), I'm in the "Oklahoma" business.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about replicating the Red Dirt Emporium elsewhere in OKC and even the state. I think it would perhaps do even better in a mall or other location than it does in Bricktown, especially with minor retooling that eliminates the Bricktown-requisite souvenir merchandise. But we're interested first and foremost in improving the Bricktown experience, which is why we have put so much time, effort and expense into the current locations.

[Spartan]

If they add residential then yes Bricktown will continue to thrive. That is what I said. However, for every hotel they add, that many locals will find somewhere else downtown to spend their time. In the future, as Deep Deuce continues to develop and housing in Midtown get established those people won't be making a stop in Bricktown before or after a Thunder game, they will have their own neighborhoods to support.

I don't actually believe that there's an inverse relationship between out of town tourists and local crowd. I don't think we have a local crowd that is desperate to get away from all these flocks of tourists that we get here in Oklahoma. If that was realistic, then I think you'd have more of a point about the local crowd..

However there is something intrinsic that has to explain why Mid-town does more for locals these days than Bricktown. I hate to see downtown through the all-to-frequent "Bricktown first lens" but I don't think you can correct that with an anti-Bricktown bias, either, which some on this forum probably do have.

[Pete]

I think people are too hard on Bricktown.

Do you realize there are currently more than 50 bars/longues/pubs/restaurants in the area? 50! And at least a couple of more have just opened or will soon, plus a completely remodeled Bricktown Brewery.

Plus, you have two new hotels that will be added into the mix to the two that have been completed in just the last few years. AND, not only do you have ACM@UCO but they are greatly expanding and even bought their building.

Add to that a long sold-out condo complex, a big movie theater, a bowling lounge, live music, Bricktown Ballpark and some retail and there is a lot going on down there.


Yes, it could be a lot more and I think it will be in the near future, but I think too many people complain without recognizing how much is there and how much has been added just in the last few years. And BTW, all those residential units in Deep Deuce are only going to help Bricktown.

[Just the facts]

I am probably as guilty as the next person - I keep forgetting Bricktown is a regional entertainment district and not a neighborhood.

[Urbanized]

I think it can/should be both. But I will ask these questions:

Why would a new hotel in Bricktown be something that drives locals further away, yet a new hotel in Deep Deuce is such a great thing?

Why does Bricktown have an almost universally-accepted restaurant reputation as "chains-only" and other districts such as Automobile Alley, Midtown and Western Avenue NOT get the same reputation while having very similar restaurant group makeup, and in some cases exactly the same?

I think sometimes there are a number of double standards applied when discussing this district. It is an easy target and has few vocal advocates (Bricktown's own fault).

I think one of Bricktown's biggest problems is that it was first. Everyone attached ALL of their hopes and dreams to it, and things didn't always take the path that everyone wanted. It also didn't have the advantage of watching other districts in OKC come together and use the others' failings or successes to instruct their own approach. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

The ownership changes over the past couple of years have changed the landscape greatly. Many of the "squatters" people decry are no longer in the mix. There are new owners with new plans and new ways of looking at things. I think Bricktown's story is far from being written in stone at this point.

[Pete]

I think most are frustrated by the lack of development / redevelopment along the canal and he dearth of living units, and I can understand that.

But we also tend to overlook what is already there and those other things can and will probably still happen.


And I will say that every time I'm in town I end up down there for some reason and there are always throngs of people out and about. It's nice to see that type of activity and it's the only place in town where it is happening.

[dankrutka]

Why does Bricktown have an almost universally-accepted restaurant reputation as "chains-only" and other districts such as Automobile Alley, Midtown and Western Avenue NOT get the same reputation while having very similar restaurant group makeup, and in some cases exactly the same?

Are they the same? Let's take Automobile Alley as an example - Iguana's (local), Sara Sara Cupcakes (local), Panchinko Parlor (local), Red (local), Hideaway (Oklahoma). Are there any others in AA? Okay, so every single restaurant in AA is local or Oklahoma.

Bricktown has chains like Abuelos, Zio's, IHOP, McDonald's with some Oklahoma and local places also.

So, I guess the reason people say AA is more local than Bricktown is because AA is more local than Bricktown.