Union Station

[Doug Loudenback]

I want to throw in a plug about the Oklahoma Railway Museum :





If you've not been there, or not taken your kids or grandkids, you've missed a very nice piece of Oklahoma City history. It's kind of off the beaten path and my guess is that lots of people don't even know that it exists. The "saved" logos of Rock Island and Frisco RRs that existed above the Robinson Street underpass to the RR tracks were delicately stone-sawn from the overpass in a cooperative effort between the contractor, ODOT, ORM & RetroMetro Okc, and are on permanent display at the museum.

A pic I took in 2007 shows the Rock Island logo ... the Frisco logo is hidden by the 14' 10" elevation sign.



The museum is very "pastoral" in its feel, with gobs of good stuff to see.

[Spartan]

Those were some cool underpasses...I always liked those for some reason.

[Doug Loudenback]

Those were some cool underpasses...I always liked those for some reason.

'Cause you could honk and create an echo.

[mcca7596]

You can still do that at the 23rd st. tunnel north of the capitol. :-)

[Doug Loudenback]

You can still do that at the 23rd st. tunnel north of the capitol. :-)

Yep. I know.

[Pete]

Today, there was a $101,000 building permit to remodel the tunnel at Union Station.

Must be somehow related to the new I-40, as the tunnel used to lead out to the old tracks and that area is now mostly covered by the new interstate.

[RealEstateCop1]

WOW! I have never seen the inside of that place.

[Tritone]

Great work, Pete. The pics bring back wonderful memories from when I used to go there in the early 60s. And Doug, thank you for all your historical work. Great memories and answers to many questions.

[Just the facts]

Today, there was a $101,000 building permit to remodel the tunnel at Union Station.

Must be somehow related to the new I-40, as the tunnel used to lead out to the old tracks and that area is now mostly covered by the new interstate.

Any idea where this tunnel goes to now?

[USG'60]

I don't think there is a link on this thread to Doug's blog, so here it is: http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/06...irca-2009.html There are some great pictures including the tunnel.

[Just the facts]

The pictures are great but how much of the tunnel is left? There is a 10 lane interstate and train tracks right out the back door now. What would they be spending 100K on?

[Snowman]

The pictures are great but how much of the tunnel is left? There is a 10 lane interstate and train tracks right out the back door now. What would they be spending 100K on?

For 100K it is not going to be much. As far as how much is left, it seems probable they would have removed anything that would have been under the interstate and put in a new bulkhead.

[Larry OKC]

Great pics Doug! A couple of things that HAVE to go is that cubicle looking thing and the acoustic tile/dropped ceiling in the office!

[Just the facts]

For 100K it is not going to be much. As far as how much is left, it seems probable they would have removed anything that would have been under the interstate and put in a new bulkhead.

Did anyone notice if they took the tunnel out when the freeway was put in? That would be been pretty easy to see if someone was looking for it and would have been interesting see uncovered.

[Urban Pioneer]

I have current photo's of the tunnel. It is "shaved off." The building permit is essentially to seal off and waterproof what remains below grade which is currently exposed.

When it is all said and done, the historic ramp inside the building will remain and the doors that separate the "tunnel level" from the building lobby/ramp. Only about 20' of the tunnel itself will remain. It would make an interesting "movie set" but not much else.

While I haven't studied the flexibility of the building design itself, interestingly enough the idea has been maintained that Union station could have a "stop" platform on the rail line that is at "highway grade" on the other side of the retaining wall via a small tunnel extension. The platform would presumably be a stop on the line out to the airport/Yukon.

The problem with that concept is ADA issues and how to architectural resolve them. It is a novel idea but the ramp in Union Station is too steep to meet current codes for grade. So some sort of elevator or other device would have to be incorporated into the building design to accommodate handicapped.

I wish that they were just going ahead and making preparations for such a possibility as doing it later is going to be inherently complicated. Not impossible, but everything will be buried and sealed off at that point in the very near future.

[Larry OKC]

Urban: I take it then that Union Station definitely is NOT going to somehow connect with the MAPS 3 Streetcars? i don't have anything against it being repurposed (such as a restaurant with historic photos of its history). Just seems a logical MAPS 3 synergy if it was a streetcar stop. I am sad.

i know it isn't possible but ideally I would like to switch the Union and Santa Fe stations. I love the outside appearance of Union much more than Santa Fe.

[rcjunkie]

Urban: I take it then that Union Station definitely is NOT going to somehow connect with the MAPS 3 Streetcars? i don't have anything against it being repurposed (such as a restaurant with historic photos of its history). Just seems a logical MAPS 3 synergy if it was a streetcar stop. I am sad.

i know it isn't possible but ideally I would like to switch the Union and Santa Fe stations. I love the outside appearance of Union much more than Santa Fe.

Maybe I missed something, but what does removing the the tunnel have to do with the Union Station not having the means to connect to the streetcar system.

[Larry OKC]

Maybe I missed something, but what does removing the the tunnel have to do with the Union Station not having the means to connect to the streetcar system.

Nothing directly relating the closed tunnel but this was in the middle of Urban's post which talked about a line out to the Airport/Yukon (which I was reading as meaning a light rail or commuter rail type line as opposed to the Streetcars, and even if part of some future expansion of the Streetcar, not a part of MAPS 3 which will likely mean several more years out from it):

While I haven't studied the flexibility of the building design itself, interestingly enough the idea has been maintained that Union station could have a "stop" platform on the rail line that is at "highway grade" on the other side of the retaining wall via a small tunnel extension. The platform would presumably be a stop on the line out to the airport/Yukon.

[Urban Pioneer]

I didn't say anything or intend to imply anything about streetcar. How, if, or when it will interface with the building/park/bridge has yet to be determined.

I would suggest however that it would be beneficial to those projects. Perhaps some of the $30 million could fund it. LOL

[Larry OKC]

Urban: So now I am still confused (happening a lot these days...LOL). Are there plans for the Streetcar to run down to Union Station?

If I am looking at the most recent map over in the Streetcar thread correctly (see below) along with what you had about the (unspecified) "line out to the airport/Yukon", looks like it runs along Reno (with a possible "option" down to the Boulevard, just skirting the upper edge of the Park and NOT utilizing Union Station? Wouldn't that resort in a wasted use of rail/time/money to put an E/W line in at the top of the Park and then a little bit latter doing it again to utilize Union directly? Presume that the redundant corresponding section along Reno would not be built if the Boulevard "option" is included? Just seems like the most cost effective way to do it is to do so from the beginning.

Plus, it would avoid the our version of the "bridge to nowhere" (a Train Station without "trains").

From Steve's blog.
Could This Be the Beginning of OKC’s New Streetcar System?

[Just the facts]

Larry,

There are no plans to run the MAPS III funded streetcar to Union Station. Future non-MAPS III streeetcar expansion might run there and it is possible a commuter rail line connecting downtown with the airport could make a stop at Union Station, but probably wouldn't anyhow, as they took out the link between Union Station and Stockyard City to make way for the new I-40. Any train using exisiting track going to the airport would have to do it south of the Oklahoma River.

[Larry OKC]

Just the Facts: I am not doubting what you posted as that was my understanding of it as well (before I got confused). That all seems needlessly wasteful (not the most efficient use of limited funds). I hope Urban or Hutch might respond to clarify just in case we are both incorrect.

[Just the facts]

Just the Facts: I am not doubting what you posted as that was my understanding of it as well (before I got confused). That all seems needlessly wasteful (not the most efficient use of limited funds). I hope Urban or Hutch might respond to clarify just in case we are both incorrect.

I do know at least one council member suggested the idea of going along Core 2 Shore to spur development in the area. Some of the council members are detached from reality when it comes to the streetcar.

[Urban Pioneer]

Ok. Let me try to clarify this as best as I can as it stands today.

BACK THEN

The original, idea of the streetcar going further in the park had to do with where the Convention Center was originally positioned by the Core to Shore people. Union Station made an obvious "turn around" point in the system do to its historic relevance to train travel and the fact that something might actually go in there that the public would want to use. This sort of generalized scenario was depicted in the broad map we used early on when campaigning for streetcars to be part of Maps 3.


TODAY

I went to a meeting of the Maps 3 Park Subcommittee where it was expressed to me that they wanted streetcar connectivity to the park. They did not specify what kind of connectivity or exactly how they wanted it to interface.

If you look at the Alternatives Analysis map, a Reno/Sheridan connection to the Santa-Fe Depot is proposed, essentially one block away. Using the alternate route of the new OKC Boulevard would mean that it would be catty-corner directly across from the park.

Since the new Convention Center is undoubtedly going to the Ford Dealership/Fred Jones site, the question becomes, do you go deeper into the park with the streetcar?

A. Is Union Station a "must have" stop in Phase 1?

B. Does the new Skydance Bridge next to Union Station warrant a stop directly next to it?

C. Considering it is a park, is Reno or the New Boulevard close enough that its is completely reasonable to ask people to actually walk across it to get to and from the transit stop? lol


GENERAL BELIEF ABOUT THIS

Going to give you my observation about this.

1. The Convention Center moving across the Boulevard from the park has taken a great deal of "wind out of the sails" of the Park Subcommittee. They don't have a master plan. The CC might have accelerated the formation of one.

2. In all the bantering about conceptual CC designs for the old park site and other broad discussions on this forum, most of everybody has seemingly forgot (or doesn't know) about all of the crazy grade changes that are going to occur as result of the new I-40, Robinson bridge ramp, new Boulevard declining ramp, and Skydance Bridge suspended ramp.

As a member of the Transit Subcommittee, I want to have a model of all of these grade changes in front of me before we make decisions about the streetcar going anywhere over there. Even if the streetcar can traverse through all of these grade changes, they might mean that a pedestrian can't.

If I were on the Parks Subcommittee, I would ask for the same thing.


Regarding my observations about all of this, perhaps Steve can give better/more insight as he has attended other meetings as well. But right now I would say that there is a strong lack of coherence as to what all is about to happen in that area, even for those who have tried to study it directly. And I mean that in an overall context as well as a more intimate one.

You have an undetermined Boulevard size, declining underpass under the railroad BNSF bridge, ramping Robinson Avenue, new I-40 Crosstown "canyon", suspended approach to Skydance Bridge, emergency vehicle tunnel, and transmission lines going to a electrical substation (that increasingly looks like its going to stay for a while). Oh, and the newly completed Walker ramp approach.

Ironically, the new park in front of Union Station may end up almost as "land-locked" as it ever was. If so, it would somewhat "contain" pedestrian activity forcing it towards a Northern located transit stop anyways.

[Urban Pioneer]

It could also be argued that if it is "land-locked" then Union Station makes a great "bookend" as well and has a promising future.

Regarding Commuter rail connections, it would be strictly for the line out to Yukon. You are right about the RR bridge being gone where the new highway is located. Presumably a connection to the Airport would be via the Packing Town Lead through northern Capitol Hill or a Rapid Streetcar/Light-Rail line going a different route out there.

So as it relates to Union Station building, the need for a stop is in the pretty far distant future although some savings could probably occur if they just went ahead and did it now. Unfortunately, a study doesn't exist that says that it should be done and there is no money to do it, so its really a mute point.