Embark (OKC Metro Bus Service)

[SkyWestOKC]

Hubs work for long distance travel.

I am in favor of the inner core having the bulk of the transit options, at this point. But I think service should be included to destinations outside of that core. And you could provide all of those from the central hub while maintaining a grid-based service in the core. That way you can still provide service to the attractions and quality of life areas, while also maintaining good service in the inner core. I'm not talking about full service. Direct service to that destination from the core.

In short, you could get from a given point inside the core, to a given attraction in 2 stops. Take one bus to a connection point if the particular bus you get on does not go to the hub. Get on bus to hub. Get on a bus with direct service to the specific destination. You could even include multiple destinations in one run.

[Just the facts]

If a business or group of businesses wanted to offer transportation directly to them I wouldn't have a problem with that. While that might work for retail places, employers are probably not going to be as accommodating.

[SkyWestOKC]

Employers probably won't. But having bus service to large retail centers, and large employment areas should be key. Not talking about bus service to every strip mall. The outlet mall will have over 3 million visitors annually and 1,000 employees. The airport has 3 1/2 million travelers each year, and the terminal building employs around 600. The MMAC at the airport has a TON of employees and short term employees. Tinker AFB is a huge employment center. Penn Square Mall has a ton of visitors, and is nearby the huge employment center named the Chesapeake Empire. You could hit the CHK campus, Classen Curve, and PSM on the same bus with 3 stops at the end of the line. Frontier City could see weekend only service, on a direct bus a few times per day at most. No stops in between. The hotels on Meridian could be served on the same bus that goes to the Airport. White Water Bay could be included on that line or the one that could go to the Outlet Mall.

Memorial Rd. could see a bus line that just rotates around that entire area. With a feeder bus that goes into downtown a few times per day at most. By only providing a few stops on each of those spoke routes (mainly near the end of the line), you could use the interstate system most of the way, saving time.

You don't have to provide 15 minute shuttle service to those destinations. But at least provide the option to support those attractions to those living inside the core, that are 100% reliant on that service.

[Spartan]

Airline have gotten pretty efficient at moving people between destinations. What would be your alternative design?

Grid system. And moving people around like airlines do doesn't offer the best solution for moving people up and down Walker. Give me a break..

[SkyWestOKC]

The airlines and local transit options do not operate on the same wavelength. That's about all I need to say in that regard.

[Spartan]

Yeah, it's just another preposterous idea from Kerry lately..lol

[Just the facts]

Okay - let's look at the grid system. What are your N/S and E/W routes? Also, keep in mind that the desire is to replace short car trips with mass transit.

If you want to catch fish, you have to go where the fish are.

http://www.bikeleague.org/resources/why/environment.php

According to the Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey, 25 percent of all trips are made within a mile of the home, 40 percent of all trips are within two miles of the home, and 50 percent of the working population commutes five miles or less to work. Yet more than 82 percent of trips five miles or less are made by personal motor vehicle.

60 percent of the pollution created by automobile emissions happens in the first few minutes of operation, before pollution control devices can work effectively. Since "cold starts" create high levels of emissions, shorter car trips are more polluting on a per-mile basis than longer trips.

[RadicalModerate]

Debate in Haiku
is more fun than it used to
You drive to route five?

two hundred strides lead
to convergence of my path
with city bus route

(That would be a "no")

[Just the facts]

your destinations
it would seem to me must be
two hundred strides too

I think one of the problems is that when looking at bus routes to many people focus on the trip to work. That is fine for a commuter type system like OKC currently has. I am more interested in creating a system that replaces the automobile by giving people an option to not only get to work, but to get to the bank, the drug store, or a friend’s house 12 blocks away.

As I posted above, a significant percentage of automobile trips are less than 2 miles. That is why I want to connect residential neighborhoods with their local retail/business districts. I am interested to hear which streets would be served on a grid system. My hubs would also serve as an anchor for small scale localized TOD. Even if the routes change, the hub is permanent.

[Just the facts]

This is just an example of what the routes could look like. These are the 4 local circulators in Capitol Hill. Each local route is between 4 and 5 miles round trip which means a small 15 passenger bus could make the trip 4X per hour. That would provide continuous 15 minute service from every point along the route. All routes would converge at a hub in Capitol Hill where passengers could transfer to other local routes within the Capitol Hill domain or enter the larger system via an express bus to another hub. Throw a bike rack on the back for 4 or 5 bikes and if you lived in this area your could live car free for most of the year if you wanted to.

[SkyWestOKC]

The problem with hubs though, is unless you have the traffic flow to do a rolling hub, you must use a hub that has banks. A rolling hub would be comparable to DFW or Atlanta. You have so much volume, you aren't dependent on a bank of airplanes full of people all arriving within an hour of each other, and then passengers connecting, then all of the planes going out within an hour. Most hubs use banks, because there is not enough people to support a rolling hub. The problem with a banked hub is, you only have so many banks you can use for feeds. And the banks are spaced out. You miss a bank, and you will wait a while for the next bank.

So, if you want frequent service, you will need rolling hubs. But the ridership is not there to support that. The banked hub is the only way it will work, but you will see less frequent service.

[Just the facts]

Service between hubs would be every 30 minutes. So sticking with Capitol Hill; every 30 minutes buses would depart for downtown, the SE Hub, and the Capitol Hub. About 25 minutes later buses from those hubs will arrive. During that time the local hub would be served by 4 local circulators 4X each (16 local arrivals every hour). My system is more like 7 seperate bus systems with integration points that allow transfers between the systems. If the blue route in the NE Hub domain changes there is no impact in the rest of the system. It would restore the neighborhood concept to OKC.

For those that are savvy enough my system also provides short-cuts. Just picture the same 4 color routes around the SE Hub. A rider could go to the Capitol Hill Hub and catch the blue line. He could get off at High and SE Grand, walk a short distance and catch the green route for the SE Hub. Since these buses run every 15 minutes he would have a minimal wait time. If they want to go to the NW Hub they could connect via the Central Hub and save 30 minutes vs taking the circle route.

[SkyWestOKC]

You are assuming there is enough demand to run that frequent of service. Also, where do those passengers go when they get to their hub? If there is not enough demand to keep the hub rolling, they will arrive, wait for an hour or more before getting on the next bus.

[Just the facts]

The whole purpose of my system is to generate demand by making the system community-centric and offering a viable alternative to $4 gasoline. Not every passenger will be going to the hub. Some will being dropping their car off at the local repair shop and riding it home or back to work instead of sitting the waiting room for 2 hours. Other people will use it to go to lunch. Even at the maximum wait time you would still have 30 minutes to eat lunch. The day FedEx first flew they carried one package, but reliable, on-time, and fast service eventually won out over skeptism.

[Spartan]

Okay - let's look at the grid system. What are your N/S and E/W routes? Also, keep in mind that the desire is to replace short car trips with mass transit.

If you want to catch fish, you have to go where the fish are.

http://www.bikeleague.org/resources/why/environment.php

Ok, well this is fairly easy...

Meridian, Portland, May, Villa/Agnew, Penn, Blackwelder, Western, Walker, Lincoln, MLK. 59th, 44th, Grand Blvd, 29th, 15th, 10th, 16th, 23rd, 30th, 36th, 50th, NW Expressway.

This is a lot easier than you're making it...

[SkyWestOKC]

Here is the difference between the airline hub system and buses.

You have one destination and one hub. You have one ship for each destination, or leg, as it is leaving or coming to a hub.

On paper, you could get a rolling hub to work for transit. You would just need a ton of buses and not have ANY stops between the bus stop and the hub. Assuming a 20 minute maximum drive to/from downtown, and a 30 minute connection maximum, and a 10 minute connection minimum, also assuming you have about double the capacity or more of the bus hub, you could provide service from any point in the service area to any other given point in an hour and 10 minutes. Which isn't THAT bad at all.

The problem. We don't have that many buses. On paper hubs work great for moving anything. In reality they are only good if you have the resources to funnel enough traffic through it to make it "roll". The hub system does not, and will not work for local transit (sans unlimited resources), unless it is regional distances (I.E. Edmond, Midwest City, Yukon, Moore/Norman).

[Spartan]

Here is the difference between the airline hub system and buses.

You have one destination and one hub. You have one ship for each destination, or leg, as it is leaving or coming to a hub.

On paper, you could get a rolling hub to work for transit. You would just need a ton of buses and not have ANY stops between the bus stop and the hub. Assuming a 20 minute maximum drive to/from downtown, and a 30 minute connection maximum, and a 10 minute connection minimum, also assuming you have about double the capacity or more of the bus hub, you could provide service from any point in the service area to any other given point in an hour and 10 minutes. Which isn't THAT bad at all.

The problem. We don't have that many buses. On paper hubs work great for moving anything. In reality they are only good if you have the resources to funnel enough traffic through it to make it "roll". The hub system does not, and will not work for local transit (sans unlimited resources), unless it is regional distances (I.E. Edmond, Midwest City, Yukon, Moore/Norman).

With a grid system, I think if you can maintain at least 15 minute intervals which 10-5 minute would normally be considered more ideal, you can manage cross-town transfers much more efficiently than an hour and a half.

[SkyWestOKC]

With a grid system, I think if you can maintain at least 15 minute intervals which 10-5 minute would normally be considered more ideal, you can manage cross-town transfers much more efficiently than an hour and a half.

The grid system is about the only way to go when it comes to our situation. IMHO.

Someone (I would as I like doing stuff like this, but I'm slammed -- busy, not drunk) should do some number crunching and see how many buses it would take to run the system one cycle on a 15-20 minute interval.

For example Penn starting at I-240 flowing all the way north to I-44, turning around and coming back to I-240 would be one cycle. And how many buses would have to be in motion on a 15-20 minute interval until the first bus got back to I-240. Do that for the grid. Would be interesting to see.

[Spartan]

Well I just listed 22 different routes. Some of them are just 5 miles long or less (like MLK), some of them are like 10 miles long (like May, Penn, Western, etc). But, on average, that would be 7 miles or so. Then if there is a bus placed every 5 miles that would be around 10-15 minutes usually. So 22 x 7 / 5 = 31

Some other buses would have to be dedicated to run just a few other priority routes outside the transit service area, such as NW Expressway or I-240.

[rcjunkie]

The grid system is about the only way to go when it comes to our situation. IMHO.

Someone (I would as I like doing stuff like this, but I'm slammed -- busy, not drunk) should do some number crunching and see how many buses it would take to run the system one cycle on a 15-20 minute interval.

For example Penn starting at I-240 flowing all the way north to I-44, turning around and coming back to I-240 would be one cycle. And how many buses would have to be in motion on a 15-20 minute interval until the first bus got back to I-240. Do that for the grid. Would be interesting to see.

Penn, I-44 to I-240, every 15 mintues would take 5 buses to maintain a 15--20 time frame.

[Just the facts]

Thanks RCJunkie. Penn might be 10 miles long but it is a 20 mile route round trip. Linear routes also have an inherent scheduling problem as you move towards the ends of the line.

If bus counts and capacity are the issue I could eliminate the circular route and have all community based hubs connect at the central hub instead. This would increase load rates and reduce the number of buses necessary.

The problem with the grid system is that it will require nearly everyone to have to change buses at least one time (unless they just want to go further down the road they are already on). That would create about 70 transfer points where people would have to wait out in the elements or 70 transfer shelters would have to be created. My local neighborhood routes saturate residential areas with nearly all homes in the Urban Core being less than 4 blocks from a bus route. The grid routes are a mile apart.

By eliminating the ring route my system could be run with 15 minutes neighborhood service and 30 minute hub to hub service using 32 15-passenger buses and 14 50-passenger buses. That is a total of 46 buses which is less than half of what we currently use (Metro transit currently has 99 buses). My 15 passenger buses cost less than half what the current buses cost. Even if I left the ring route in it only adds 14 more buses to my system which is still far fewer than what we already have.

[betts]

I had a very interesting conversation today with someone whom most people would assume would NEVER consider riding a bus. She's a person who grew up wealthy and whom I would never have thought about discussing mass transit with. So, this morning over coffee she said, "Have you ever looked at the bus routes? They're like a big pile of spaghetti. It's not easy to get anywhere. And, why don't we have signs that show the routes and times of the buses?" Turns out she and a group of businessmen were thinking it might be nice to take a bus from Nichols Hills to downtown. They actually googled the route and were overwhelmed by the complexity. The take away message is that we actually don't know precisely who might consider taking the bus. We've all assumed that people who are accustomed to driving and who can afford to drive any car they want want to drive. Maybe we've made assumptions that aren't entirely true. But, we have to have a sytem that is logical and easy to use.

But, she also expressed the desire that the bus system be on a grid, as do I. The simpler transportation routes are to understand, the more likely people are to use them, I believe.

[shane453]

What Betts is saying is exactly the sense I get about OKC's relationship with transit. We would consider using transit if we could figure out how to use the buses. By adopting gridded routes, we are actually mimicking the way that we would walk or drive in the grid system (in an L-shape). The bus service becomes as much a part of the street as the lane striping, and people would come to know exactly which streets have buses and where the buses are going. The grid system is also likely to connect people to nearby commercial centers, because the intersections of arterials are where concentrations of businesses are. As for transferring, I could avoid having to transfer in the grid system by sticking to my own arterial- This may mean that I go for a Homeland that is 5 miles away (but on the same arterial) versus a Homeland that is just two miles away (but on another arterial). Any other destination could be reached with a single transfer. It would be impossible to be more than a 1/2 mile (10-minute) walk from a bus route if the square-mile arterials are routes. In fact, everyone would be within a 1/2 mile walk of TWO routes in a square mile bus grid.

Kerry, there are a lot of complicated, sometimes silly reasons (federal regulations, ADA, etc) why we can't use the smaller passenger-count buses.

[Just the facts]

Kerry, there are a lot of complicated, sometimes silly reasons (federal regulations, ADA, etc) why we can't use the smaller passenger-count buses.

Lots of cities use smaller capacity buses now. They are every bit as safe and ADA compliant as the larger buses. If they weren't, they wouldn't be selling them because no one would be buying them.

Here is a 22 seat version:

[Just the facts]

Does anyone know of any cities that are currently using a grid system? I heard Denver mentioned in the past so I took a look at their routes. They are all over the place as well.

Here are two examples of their routes.