Embark (OKC Metro Bus Service)

[Just the facts]

The subject of a grid route strategy came up again in the streetcar thread and I wanted to address it without hijacking the streetcar thread.

I setup a grid based simulation and I just don't see how it will work. A 24 route system (12 n/s and 12 e/w) produced 73 integration points (places where routes crossed each other). This makes timing almost impossible. People could be waiting for 20 minutes or more just to change buses with no way of know which route would be the most time effective. We would probably have to build some kind small station at all 73 stops.

I think we still need to use a wheel style system with a central hub downtown and 6 or 7 remote hubs. Each hub would be fed by upto 3 local circulators and then connected to each other by express service. Each remote hub would connect directly to downtown and a ring route that connects the remote hubs to each other with express buses running clockwise and counter-clockwise routes. All of this would still be limited to the urban core.

As time goes on the express routes could be replaced with streetcars and the system expanded.

Remote hub all connect via express to downtown hub:



Remote hubs connected to each other via express:


As I said before, each hub would have at least 3 local circulators using smaller buses. Each hub would have a waiting area, kiss and go drop-off, system map, automated signage, and maybe food service.

[RadicalModerate]

Do "they" still make the drivers (on Route 5) get their buses back onto the road that circles Quail Springs Mall--ON THE SOUTH SIDE (with no actual bus stops)--after picking up passengers at the North entrance to the Mall, thereby rendering schedule compliance adherence on the part of the drivers nearly impossible to achieve? Not to mention all of the wasted fuel burned while sitting in an often LONG line of cars waiting to make the left turn out of the Mall area in order to proceed Westward toward the Mercy Hospital area turn-around?

[Just the facts]

Your question would be irrelevant in my system as both Quail Springs and Mercy would not be served by any bus. If you want to live, shop, or work out there you would need to get a car. My system is not an urban sprawl facilitator. If you want access to fast, affordable, and reliable mass transit you would have to live, work, and play in the Urban Mass Transit Zone.

[SkyWestOKC]

But at the same time, you completely isolate people from being able to use anything outside of that zone. Why can't someone who can't afford a car, not be able to go to a mall, the airport, get a job at Tinker, go to Earlywine park for a gathering with friends, go to White Water Bay on a hot day. Or let's turn the table, let's say there are some out of town people at a hotel on Meridian Ave. They want to go to the Outlet Mall today and possibly go to White Water Bay. Looks like they'll be forced to rent a car, right?

[Larry OKC]

RE: the 20 minutes or more waiting time, how long do they have to wait now if they 1) have to go all the way DT to the central hub and get a different bus or 2) have to wait for a bus from a different route (as was mentioned @ Council when they were talking about expanding a route out to the Outlet mall?

I agree that a spoke/hub system can be very time consuming (have direct experience with it out in Vegas and the Sams Town shuttle to the Strip and DT/Fremont..can't get directly from the Strip/DT but have to go thru the "hub" of Sams Town which adds 1.5 hrs to the trip (if you don't miss it)

Why do you think we would need 73 small stations? While they might be nice to have, why couldn't what we have now (a bus stop) serve?

The challenge I see with any form of Mass transit is:
1) Does it come to where I am
2) Does it go where I need to go
3) Does it do it when it fits my schedule

I think a grid system would better serve most of those challenges over a spoke/hub.

[RadicalModerate]

Oh. I see: A "workable plan" for the Urban [Elitist] Core.
News Flash: The Urban Sprawl doesn't need to be facilitated. It is already here.
Plus "elites" don't generally like to ride buses.
Even "Green Elites." And that's a Fact.

Do people outside of The Mass Transit Zone--yet still in Oklahoma City--get some sort of tax breaks?

BTW: I have a car. Sometimes I just choose to be "environmentally sensitive".

[Just the facts]

Oh. I see: A "workable plan" for the Urban [Elitist] Core.

Elitist? There is more affordable housing in OKC's urban core than any other section of the City.

News Flash: The Urban Sprawl doesn't need to be facilitated. It is already here.

How much more urban sprawl do we need?

Plus "elites" don't generally like to ride buses.
Even "Green Elites." And that's a Fact.

And your point is?

Do people outside of The Mass Transit Zone--yet still in Oklahoma City--get some sort of tax breaks?

No. They get 4 lane freeways, 6 lane streets, miles of sewer lines, even more miles of water lines, police and fire protection, and thousand of street lights that cost millions to turn on every night.

BTW: I have a car. Sometimes I just choose to be "environmentally sensitive".

Then move to the urban core and be 'enviornmentally sensitive' all the time. If you still have to drive to work then start taking the bus to dinner or the movies. The bus isn't just for going to work.

[Just the facts]

But at the same time, you completely isolate people from being able to use anything outside of that zone. Why can't someone who can't afford a car, not be able to go to a mall, the airport, get a job at Tinker, go to Earlywine park for a gathering with friends, go to White Water Bay on a hot day. Or let's turn the table, let's say there are some out of town people at a hotel on Meridian Ave. They want to go to the Outlet Mall today and possibly go to White Water Bay. Looks like they'll be forced to rent a car, right?

We tried providing service to less dense areas - it cost too much and doesn't work. If the outlet mall wants to run a private shuttle bus to a hub they could. The same with hotels on Meridian. We already gave them the Spirit trolley and it failed in every conceivable way. As for the airport - the Airport Trust could run a bus continously to the SW Hub.

[RadicalModerate]

Elitist? There is more affordable housing in OKC urban core than any other section of the City.
Only temporarily. In a couple of years the second harvest of MAPs will begin to be reaped.

How much more urban sprawl do we need?
We don't need any more urban sprawl. But the urban sprawl already sprawled needs to be maintained in terms of services provided by the City that approved the sprawl in the first place.

And your point is?
Make the buses look like limos and I will concede this point.

No. They get 4 lane freeways, 6 lane streets, miles of sewer lines, even more miles of water lines, police and fire protection, and thousand of street lights that cost millions to turn on every night.
"They" . . .? Is there some sort of secret de-annexation scheme in the works?

Then move to the urban core and be 'enviornmentally sensitive' all the time. If you still have to drive to work then start taking the bus to dinner or the movies. The bus isn't just for going to work.
Yes, but the carbon footprint created by driving 20 miles instead of 3 miles to work (to pay for the movies, dinners and even Netflix streaming video) doesn't seem to be factored into your environmentally friendly equation . . . It is sort of like The Ethanol of Mass Transit.

[SkyWestOKC]

So if I am unable to afford a car, I am 100% confined to the urban zone. With no chance of getting a job outside of that zone, I would probably be stuck in the same zone. It's also not the airport's responsibility to provide public transportation. They already provide a ton of benefits for the community, and shouldn't be expected to provide even more, when it's the city's responsibility of doing that.

You're system is flawed more than our current one.

[Just the facts]

My plan is pretty simple - server a small area really well instead of a large area poorly. The resources to provide even a substandard system to 500 sq miles just isn't available. If you don't have a car being confined to the urban zone is a lot better than being confined to how far your feet can take you.

[RadicalModerate]

My plan is pretty simple - server a small area really well instead of a large area poorly. The resources to provide even a substandard system to 500 sq miles just isn't available. If you don't have a car being confined to the urban zone is a lot better than being confined to how far your feet can take you.

Yes, Pretty Simple: "Server a small area" . . . and sever the rest.
Just out of curiosity, how often do you actually ride the bus yourself?
(At least beyond the force field defining the Urban Core.)

No matter how you slice it, "poorly" is better than "nothing at all" . . .

[RealJimbo]

My plan is pretty simple - server a small area really well instead of a large area poorly. The resources to provide even a substandard system to 500 sq miles just isn't available. If you don't have a car being confined to the urban zone is a lot better than being confined to how far your feet can take you.

Your plan sounds suspiciously like a utopian plan that can only be sold by a totalitarian dictator within a socialistic framework. "Eat your peas!!"

[shane453]

Don't you think it's hard to draw up stuff like this when you don't even experience the patterns of life in this city on a daily basis? (Assuming JTF is Kerry based on everything he has ever posted) When you are in this city watching the bus system work every day, you realize how complex it is to begin making changes- and you realize that cutting service to an area means that people whose lives are already really difficult may lose their only form of transportation (and subsequently their jobs).

The idea of a "frequent zone" in the core (S 44th to N 50th or so) would really help OKC's bus ridership, but by not serving other areas at all you're really missing significant groups who need transit daily, did not "choose" to live in the sprawl, and certainly cannot afford to move. We will need to continue providing access to northern parts of the city which have quite dense residential populations and important destinations and employers like Quail Springs, Mercy, and call centers. Western and eastern destinations (W Reno industrial areas, Mid-Del in the east) are also important areas for people with lower incomes who are likely to ride transit.

I have been studying transit closely this summer and seeking alternative ideas about the bus system, but unless we increase the budget they are probably doing the best they can with what they've got. They need twice as much money as they've got. $20 million more in the budget. Sure, the routes need to be majorly reevaluated, but there's not much point in doing that if we can't implement something dramatically better, which in my opinion would be a frequent grid along select streets in the core (10 to 15-minute wait times) and extended routes (with longer wait times) along arterials toward important areas of Memorial, Council, and S 89th.

A great start without changing a single route would be to offer system maps in print format for free. I went to the transit center to get one the other day, and they charge $1. Shows how underfunded they are.

[RadicalModerate]

Shane: I completely agree with everything you said in your post, with one exception:

Don't you think it's hard to draw up stuff like this when you don't even experience the patterns of life in this city on a daily basis?

Actually, it's EASY to draw up stuff like this . . . What's "hard" is to visualize and execute an effective, efficient, workable plan that actually serves the needs of everyone directly involved. The drawing up part is child's play. Obviously. Look at the "overwhelming support" for the drawing-up part already expressed right here on this thread.

The main thing to remember is that our opinions mean absolutely nothing in the long run.
Those are not the words of a pessimist. They are the words of a pragmatic observationalist.

[Just the facts]

Just for fun then, how would you improve OKCs bus systems given the limited resources available?

[RadicalModerate]

this works fairly well
but for the buses circling
The Mall on the south

(5/7/5) =)

http://www.gometro.org/system-map

[Just the facts]

Hour waiting for bus
Few passengers on the route
Find a better way

[RadicalModerate]

thirty minutes max
on Route Five in the daytime
six AM south full load

(I once had to ride the pre-dawn, southbound. bus downtown for Jury Duty. Prior to that, I had no idea how many people depend, daily, on that service. No idea whatsoever.)

[Midtowner]

But at the same time, you completely isolate people from being able to use anything outside of that zone. Why can't someone who can't afford a car, not be able to go to a mall, the airport, get a job at Tinker, go to Earlywine park for a gathering with friends, go to White Water Bay on a hot day. Or let's turn the table, let's say there are some out of town people at a hotel on Meridian Ave. They want to go to the Outlet Mall today and possibly go to White Water Bay. Looks like they'll be forced to rent a car, right?

Perhaps if you want to develop an outlet mall, one of your considerations ought to be access to public transit from places where out-of-towners stay. Sometimes there is a price to pay for contributing to urban sprawl.

[Just the facts]

Debate in Haiku
is more fun than it used to
You drive to route five?

[Spartan]

So if I am unable to afford a car, I am 100% confined to the urban zone. With no chance of getting a job outside of that zone, I would probably be stuck in the same zone. It's also not the airport's responsibility to provide public transportation. They already provide a ton of benefits for the community, and shouldn't be expected to provide even more, when it's the city's responsibility of doing that.

You're system is flawed more than our current one.

The thing though is that we don't provide usable service anywhere in the metro. It makes far more sense to draw a line around an area and say that we will provide Class A service to this small area, and no service beyond. That does far more practical good than the current system, so I don't see how it is more flawed. I do believe that we need to stop providing equal services to all areas regardless of how far they are from the center. This is actually not a bad way of doing things.

I also agree with Shane about Kerry's maps, and I almost just want to pretend those don't even exist there. Obviously whoever made those maps, whether or not that's Kerry, has no understanding of OKC and how one region flows into another.

[Just the facts]

Those maps were just examples of how ring hubs would provide express service via a loop route and express service to a downtown central bub. That is by no means all of the bus routes. Lets take the Capitol Hill Hub as an example. Local Capitol Hill neighborhoods would be served by 4 local routes. These would be smaller 15 passenger buses running localized routes on a frequent basis (probably every 15 to 20 minutes). They would provide neighborhood service to residential areas and Capitol Hill business areas. They would meet every 20 minutes at a Capitol Hill hub. This would allow riders to transfer to one of the other 3 local routes within the Capitol Hill domain. Every 30 minutes there would be clockwise and counter clockwise express bus and an express to downtown.

So lets say you live at SW27 and Western and you want to go to Lincoln and NE50th. You get on the 'Capitol Hill A' bus at SW27 & Western (it comes by every 15 minutes). It takes you to the Capitol Hill Hub. From there you get on the Purple Line going counter-clockwise. You get off at the next stop which is the Capitol Hub and board the 'Capitol Hill B' Bus which takes you to Lincoln & NE50th. Once at your destination the B bus will be by every 15 to 20 minutes to take you back home (this time catching the clockwise purple line). In my plan you can make that trip in 45 minutes by bus.

Picture it like airport hubs. If you want to go from Wyndover, NV to Morgantown, WV you get on a Delta plane in Wyndover and fly to SLC. From SLC you board a mainline aircraft to ATL. From ATL you get on a smaller plane to Morgantown. You don't stop 50 times between Wyndover and Morgantown all on the same plane.

[Spartan]

Kerry, this isn't an airline. This is community transit. There is a big difference here.

[Just the facts]

Kerry, this isn't an airline. This is community transit. There is a big difference here.

Airline have gotten pretty efficient at moving people between destinations. What would be your alternative design?