Is Remington Park an Indian Casino?

[u50254082]

In the way that Riverwind, Lucky Star, Newcastle, Firelake and the others are all tribally owned and operated.

I am trying to figure out where Remington Park stands. Keep in mind that they are owned by Global Gaming RP, which I believe is a commercial enterprise of the Chickasaw nation. So, am I correct to assume that this doesn't necessarily make Remington Park an "Indian Casino"?

From what I have researched, this comes about because RP was originally a legal horse racing track in OK, but when their previous owner Magna Entertainment went bankrupt, the Chickasaw nation swooped in and saw it as another money making venture. Of course, since the facility had already existed for some time, they basically worked with politicians to get gaming machines allowed in the building. Sort of a retrofit into a casino.

One of my biggest questions right now is who governs the casino portion of Remington Park? I have found very little regarding a gaming commission in Oklahoma that would be providing oversight in terms of fairness and certification when it comes to electronic gaming machines. Are the profits from the casino going directly to Global Gaming RP, or is there some agreement that a portion goes to the OK education fund like the state lottery?

The reason I ask is that I'm doing some research on the transparency of parimutuel wagering and gambling in OK. Particularly, how the gaming regulations (or lack thereof, so far) in OK compare to non-tribal gaming in places like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, etc..

[RadicalModerate]

Be sure to do some research on that proposed casino development, east of I-35, in the vicinity of Midwest Wrecking, or slightly north, up around 63rd St. that failed a few years ago . . . It is the only case I've ever heard of in which "The Developers" didn't win. (At least not that particular group of developers).

Of course . . . With that sort of high-stakes gambling, I'm fairly certain that the battle isn't over yet.

Pop Quiz: What was the name of that kindly Italian family, from east of here, who brought us The RacinoFacility formerly known as Remington Park? . . . =)

[u50254082]

Be sure to do some research on that proposed casino development, east of I-35, in the vicinity of Midwest Wrecking, or slightly north, up around 63rd St. that failed a few years ago . . . It is the only case I've ever heard of in which "The Developers" didn't win. (At least not that particular group of developers).

Of course . . . With that sort of high-stakes gambling, I'm fairly certain that the battle isn't over yet.

Pop Quiz: What was the name of that kindly Italian family, from east of here, who brought us The RacinoFacility formerly known as Remington Park? . . . =)

Do you have any more details on that?


Also, the original builder and owner of Remington Park was Edward DeBartolo, if that is who you are referring to.

[RadicalModerate]

I can't provide specific details about the proposed Casino/Hotel, in the general vicinity of Remington Park, on the east side of I-35 just south of 63rd street, but I do remember that it was a constant topic of discussion in the local newspaper for a short while. I think that the specifics could probably be located in the archives of The Oklahoman or other fine local publication.

Perhaps the entire "proposed development" was simply a "straw man" to leverage Native-American interests into the pre-existing facility just to the west.

If so, I guess the developers actually won.

("DeBartolo". Yes. Thanks. I almost forgot. In fact, I did.).

[ljbab728]

In the way that Riverwind, Lucky Star, Newcastle, Firelake and the others are all tribally owned and operated.

I am trying to figure out where Remington Park stands. Keep in mind that they are owned by Global Gaming RP, which I believe is a commercial enterprise of the Chickasaw nation. So, am I correct to assume that this doesn't necessarily make Remington Park an "Indian Casino"?

From what I have researched, this comes about because RP was originally a legal horse racing track in OK, but when their previous owner Magna Entertainment went bankrupt, the Chickasaw nation swooped in and saw it as another money making venture. Of course, since the facility had already existed for some time, they basically worked with politicians to get gaming machines allowed in the building. Sort of a retrofit into a casino.

One of my biggest questions right now is who governs the casino portion of Remington Park? I have found very little regarding a gaming commission in Oklahoma that would be providing oversight in terms of fairness and certification when it comes to electronic gaming machines. Are the profits from the casino going directly to Global Gaming RP, or is there some agreement that a portion goes to the OK education fund like the state lottery?

The reason I ask is that I'm doing some research on the transparency of parimutuel wagering and gambling in OK. Particularly, how the gaming regulations (or lack thereof, so far) in OK compare to non-tribal gaming in places like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, etc..

It's my understanding that it's not an Indian Casino. The tribe is the owner just like the previous owners. It's not on tribal land and still has to operate under state provisions which apply to race track casinos.

[OKCisOK4me]

I can't provide specific details about the proposed Casino/Hotel, in the general vicinity of Remington Park, on the east side of I-35 just south of 63rd street, but I do remember that it was a constant topic of discussion in the local newspaper for a short while. I think that the specifics could probably be located in the archives of The Oklahoman or other fine local publication.

Perhaps the entire "proposed development" was simply a "straw man" to leverage Native-American interests into the pre-existing facility just to the west.

If so, I guess the developers actually won.

("DeBartolo". Yes. Thanks. I almost forgot. In fact, I did.).

Are you referring to the casino/hotel that was going to be built between Wilshire & NW 63rd on the WEST side of I-35? Never heard of one being in the news that was on the east side...

[Bigrayok]

Remington Park is owned by a subsidiary of the Chickasaw Tribe but it is my understanding it is not under the jurisdiction of the Indian Gaming Act of 1988. The electronic games at Remington were approved by a vote of the people of Oklahoma when the previous non-tibal owners owned the track. The same vote allowed tribal casinos to have blackjack and poker games. When the Chickasaw subsidiary took over the park they announced it was not going to be operated as an "Indian casino". Remington only offers class III games I believe, while the Chickasaw's other casinos have Class II and Class III games. The distinction between Class II and Class III machines has always been a joke to me. I wonder how many people playing a Class II machine think of it as a bingo game, not a slot machine while they are playing it?

Bigray in Ok

[u50254082]

It's my understanding that it's not an Indian Casino. The tribe is the owner just like the previous owners. It's not on tribal land and still has to operate under state provisions which apply to race track casinos.

Remington Park is owned by a subsidiary of the Chickasaw Tribe but it is my understanding it is not under the jurisdiction of the Indian Gaming Act of 1988. The electronic games at Remington were approved by a vote of the people of Oklahoma when the previous non-tibal owners owned the track. The same vote allowed tribal casinos to have blackjack and poker games. When the Chickasaw subsidiary took over the park they announced it was not going to be operated as an "Indian casino". Remington only offers class III games I believe, while the Chickasaw's other casinos have Class II and Class III games. The distinction between Class II and Class III machines has always been a joke to me. I wonder how many people playing a Class II machine think of it as a bingo game, not a slot machine while they are playing it?

Bigray in Ok

Thanks for the information. I find this very interesting.

The Oklahoma OSF website currently states that it has some involvement in the regulation of tribal gaming, but as far as tribal casinos go, they are largely self-regulating. To date, I have not found any tribes that are willing to provide information regarding gaming income. I have not found any information to indicate that the state of OK has any official review over the way Remington Park's casino is run.

Under the continued assumption that Remington Park is indeed not tribal in any way, then the profits that Global Gaming RP earns from the casino should be subject to a different category of taxation than a tribal casino since those tax structures are determined by compacts between the state and each tribe.

This all brings up many questions which I hope to answer.

[Larry OKC]

Just some random thoughts which some have mentioned/touched on...

The Casino part was added when the voters approved it and some other Racetracks be turned into "Racinos". The horse racing industry pushed for it and insisted they needed gaming revenue to save the multi-million dollar industry from imploding. Along with the Racinos, voters approved Tribal gaming operations. By federal law, tribal casinos are supposed to be on Tribal owned land that has been put into "trust" for such purposes (they can't just buy land for it to qualify as "tribal land"). The tribe in question also has to have a historical claim to the land in question. That is one of the problems the Tribe that proposed opening a Casino in Bricktown and later the one out by Frontier City, as the tribe is located up Tulsa way and doesn't have a claim here. The same horse industry that saw gaming as it's savior saw this planned casino as a threat to Remington Park. Being a Racino, it has restrictions that don't apply to the Tribal ones. Both proposals were opposed by Cornett and the Oklahoma Congressional delegation (inlcluding now Governor Fallin) opposed it and mentioned the historical claim aspect as part of the opposition. The Chamber was unofficially in favor of it because there were supposed to be 400 or so jobs with the "resort" style complex that was proposed out on I-35.

All of that said, Remington Park is operated by an Indian Tribe but they don't have a claim here either (think I read that no tribe has a claim within OKC city limits). That blurs the line a bit but it make be due to two factors:

1) it was an existing facility and is still operating as a Racino (I suspect that if the horse racing part shut down, by state law the whole facility would have to shut down).

2) The tribe only owns/operates the building and not the land it sits on. IIRC, the land is owned by the OKC Zoo Trust (isn't that a quasi-City entity??). i know I read that the Omni-plex (Science Museum) and the Zoo get a cut from the track or the lease payments or something like that (sorry, doing this from memory so details may be off).

The reason the Tribal casinos are relatively spread out and not clustered together in a Casino "district" or our version of Las Vegas is due to the tribal trust/historical claim aspect. The various tribes have their own "jurisdictions" and unless 2 tribes built along the "property line" from each other, we aren't going to see it happen. The way they were set up and approved by voters, it essentially led to a "non-compete" industry, they don't have to directly compete with another tribe. This was one of the problems with the I-35 one, as it was too close to Remington and therefore seen as a threat/competition (even before a tribe bought it).

[RadicalModerate]

Are you referring to the casino/hotel that was going to be built between Wilshire & NW 63rd on the WEST side of I-35? Never heard of one being in the news that was on the east side...

It's been so long ago that I really don't remember, but I seem to recall that the proposed location was just south of that gas station/convenience store and that old motel at 63rd and the I-35 frontage road. Just southwest of that Braum's factory across from the abandoned airport.

[flintysooner]

I think it was The Shawnee Tribe out of Miami. There are old threads around. Here's one: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=11561&page=1

[PennyQuilts]

Remington Park is owned by a subsidiary of the Chickasaw Tribe but it is my understanding it is not under the jurisdiction of the Indian Gaming Act of 1988. The electronic games at Remington were approved by a vote of the people of Oklahoma when the previous non-tibal owners owned the track. The same vote allowed tribal casinos to have blackjack and poker games. When the Chickasaw subsidiary took over the park they announced it was not going to be operated as an "Indian casino". Remington only offers class III games I believe, while the Chickasaw's other casinos have Class II and Class III games. The distinction between Class II and Class III machines has always been a joke to me. I wonder how many people playing a Class II machine think of it as a bingo game, not a slot machine while they are playing it?

Bigray in Ok

Is that why they put that crappy bingo thing on the slots?

[u50254082]

Just some random thoughts which some have mentioned/touched on...

The Casino part was added when the voters approved it and some other Racetracks be turned into "Racinos". The horse racing industry pushed for it and insisted they needed gaming revenue to save the multi-million dollar industry from imploding. Along with the Racinos, voters approved Tribal gaming operations. By federal law, tribal casinos are supposed to be on Tribal owned land that has been put into "trust" for such purposes (they can't just buy land for it to qualify as "tribal land"). The tribe in question also has to have a historical claim to the land in question. That is one of the problems the Tribe that proposed opening a Casino in Bricktown and later the one out by Frontier City, as the tribe is located up Tulsa way and doesn't have a claim here. The same horse industry that saw gaming as it's savior saw this planned casino as a threat to Remington Park. Being a Racino, it has restrictions that don't apply to the Tribal ones. Both proposals were opposed by Cornett and the Oklahoma Congressional delegation (inlcluding now Governor Fallin) opposed it and mentioned the historical claim aspect as part of the opposition. The Chamber was unofficially in favor of it because there were supposed to be 400 or so jobs with the "resort" style complex that was proposed out on I-35.

All of that said, Remington Park is operated by an Indian Tribe but they don't have a claim here either (think I read that no tribe has a claim within OKC city limits). That blurs the line a bit but it make be due to two factors:

1) it was an existing facility and is still operating as a Racino (I suspect that if the horse racing part shut down, by state law the whole facility would have to shut down).

2) The tribe only owns/operates the building and not the land it sits on. IIRC, the land is owned by the OKC Zoo Trust (isn't that a quasi-City entity??). i know I read that the Omni-plex (Science Museum) and the Zoo get a cut from the track or the lease payments or something like that (sorry, doing this from memory so details may be off).

The reason the Tribal casinos are relatively spread out and not clustered together in a Casino "district" or our version of Las Vegas is due to the tribal trust/historical claim aspect. The various tribes have their own "jurisdictions" and unless 2 tribes built along the "property line" from each other, we aren't going to see it happen. The way they were set up and approved by voters, it essentially led to a "non-compete" industry, they don't have to directly compete with another tribe. This was one of the problems with the I-35 one, as it was too close to Remington and therefore seen as a threat/competition (even before a tribe bought it).

Larry - Great information. Thanks.

Would you assert that Remington Park would be considered a commercial non-tribal business, even though it is run by the Chickasaws? A critical point for me is to determine/establish if Remington Park profits are NOT "free money" like Class II revenues for tribal casinos.

I did some additional research last night and found that the OHRC (Oklahoma Horse Racing Commission) may be the governing body over Remington Park's casino. The bit of reading I did seemed to suggest that the State of OK used an out of box tribal compact as the rule-set for RP's casino operations.

A part that confuses me is that the State seems to consider all "casino gaming" to fall under the State-Tribal compact. If so, I would disagree and think that any non-tribal gaming needs a set of ground rules written from a strictly commercial point of view that doesn't take into account Indian tribes.

[RadicalModerate]

PennyQuilts: Is that why they put that crappy bingo thing on the slots?
(Just as long as the rivers flow and the wind blows there will be crossed-posts . . .)

I can't help but wonder if becoming "a subsidiary of the Chickasaw Tribe" wasn't the focus of the peace treaty signed by Tony Soprano in order that the Columbus Day Parade in Newark, NJ, wouldn't continue to be disrupted by protestors. Professor Ward Churchill (of University of Colorado/9-11 Response fame) apparently paved the way for such agreements by becoming an honorary member of some Oklahoma-based Tribe that was selling memberships for awhile. (Ironically, a membership later revoked by a South Dakota Based Tribal Council.)

In "Empirical" Reality, I think you will agree that--as bad as the so-called "Native Americans" were screwed over, over the years--no number of casinos will suffice to balance the previous offense. But "we" can try anyway. Can't we? I am also relieved that the tribe from Miami, OK, angling for position in the local gambling/real estate market, apparently didn't get their way: Have you ever seen the "casinos" in Miami, OK? Suffice it to say that you have to drive all the way to the one near Twin Bridges out past Fairland to get a semi-decent meal.

[Larry OKC]

Is that why they put that crappy bingo thing on the slots?

Short answer is Yes.

Working strictly from memory, that is the basic difference between Class II and Class III machines. Class II have to be bingo based (while it might look like a slot machine, it is actually a slot machine representation of the Bingo results). it doesn't matter if you played the machine in Bingo or Slot mode, the payout/result would be the same. That or most "slots" were nothing but an electronic pull-tab dispenser (where the reels displayed the printout on the ticket that was dispensed in the coin tray. Had to take the winning pull tab to the cashier and redeem them individually.

Then there were ones that were "skill based" instead of "games of chance" that would have an option of stopping the spin yourself.

Class III are Vegas Style machines and don't have the Bingo requirement and are true "slots". They have random number generators that produce the results. Unlike the pull-tab dispensers where the tribe knows how many winning tickets there are per roll/batch (just not where along the roll the winners are located. I forget the payback ratio that the pull tab ones gave but it was significantly lower payback than Vegas style. Seems it was somewhere in the 50% ballpark where Vegas style can have 98% or higher payback percentages (over the lifetime of the machine). Some states, like Nevada, require a minimum payback (78%?). Don't think there is any such requirement in Oklahoma.

One of the problems encountered with the Gaming Compacts was the State expected the Tribes to immediately migrate to the Class III classification (where the State would get a cut). Many stayed with the Class II for several years which lead too significant missed projections when it came to gaming revenue. There were other factors as well.