OH MY OH MY -- Council refuses deferals based on the request of 3 members failed!

[jn1780]

Sure everything will get built. We'll pay more for it, though. That's the whole point of moving the CC up to the top of the list. We can only hope they don't try to be too extravagant with the designs. OKC isn't going to succeed by trying to beat other cities on the business tourist front. We have do it by improving standard of living and focusing on our niches. Sure, we need a new convention center, but we don't need the biggest and greatest.

[kevinpate]

isn't the solution, for those who feel betrayed, steamrolled, ignored, etc., to identify new council candidates who communicate well, share your goals, and start drumming up support and funds now and take on those who voted contrary to your preferred agendas?

You can run the candidates as the Not THIS timeline candidates. You may or may not have greater success than the PS unions had with Not THIS MAPs, and it will cost in terms of your time, talent and treasury. But, if you prevail, you may enjoy the access and ear that you are convinced others hold today. After all, even this timeline is not carved in stone.

To your journey, should you decide to embark on it.

FWIW, I'm still not pleased the park won't be fully completed by 2014. But as a frequent guest to the city, I'll either eventually get over it, or I'll contribute less to this MAPs than I might have otherwise. As for your city fathers and mothers, those I gladly leave to you to address as you see fit.

[bornhere]

It's not as though he's tried to be sociable and forge relationships. ... The allegations and concerns may or may not be valid, but until he learns to play well with others he won't be able to serve his constituents' interests.

It's not as though he's STFU and done what the chamber tells him, you mean.

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks to a fine city employee, the video of the 7/5/2011 city council meeting is now online.

[Just the facts]

street car would appear to be the most popular, but it's questionable if it is the most important. Along those lines, the cc appeared to be the least popular, but it's likewise questionable it was the least important project in the mix.

Moving forward ... how bout those sidewalks!

I guess we need to define "important" then. What metric would you like to use?

[Steve]

Thanks to a fine city employee, the video of the 7/5/2011 city council meeting is now online.

congrats

[kevinpate]

That's sort of my point. There is no one metric that is superior to all others.
To some, if we were only doing a 700+ million cc, that would be gravy on the biscuit.
To others, the rapids at the riverfront ought to be 2x or better the scope of what is presently envisioned, with still more spent to make the riverfront THE future.
To others, even more sidewalks and trails are vastly superior to even the minor remodel of the Cox arena to aid the Barons.
To others, multiple new fire rigs, well trained staff on board today, recruited in from other communities of similar size, all fully equipped, with similar improvement, or better, for the policia, are way more important than sidewalks, pools for seniors,or a basement cc for trade shows they will never attend.

None of those perspectives are invalid in general, and certainly not invalid to their proponents.

But the citizens who could vote turned out and voted for a blank slate tax increase,with some promises of some projects. One or two pols, none of whom had the stick to enforce their voice, said this or that ought to happen, perhaps even were so bold as to say this or that WILL happen. Blah, blah, blah. Promises at campaign time. Keep them or dump them next time around, but sheesh, don't treat pol speak as being Gospel.

So it finally came time to decide what will happen when, a real honest to goodness, can now hold someone accountable vote.

Some folks understood the difference in hopes and press releases and desire and reality. So they stepped up, filled a void and they shaped things to go their way, while others sat back and either watched with astonishment or were a tad too secure on their own agendas and beliefs and merely assumed they held a winning hand in a wide open no limits game. In short, some folks worked the system while others waited for the system to work the way they hoped it might.

Right or wrong from the perspective of X, those who take on the bull often get the horns as their prize, or if they lack experience, they get gored. Those who controlled the pace and direction for the voted timeline are not folks who tend to get gored when they go after the bull.

Should the cc be first? Not in my personal opinion. Did I lift a finger to prevent it, or to advance my own personal fav, the park, to happen first? Nope, just held out hope, and watched as it diminished almost daily over the span of a few weeks. Lots of people desiring other projects did pretty much the same thing.

Truthfully, at this point, I do not believe the park will ever be as it was pitched, not in four years, not in thirty four years. I'll get over it. I've survived far bigger disappointments, and am working through a whopper of a new one this week.

[Urban Pioneer]

The streetcar is the most important part of MAPS III.

And we will build it!

Fairly quickly at that if even the the approved Option 1 timeline is held true for the first few years specific to streetcar.

I would say the first exciting noticeable public thing that should and will probably happen is the reacquisition of the Sante Fe Station for the new Hub. More on this will be coming soon!

[MikeOKC]

...reacquisition of the Sante Fe Station for the new Hub. More on this will be coming soon!

That would be great news!

[RadicalModerate]

So . . . Was it Oscar Wilde who said, "Life Imitates Art" . . ?
Or was it Will Rogers? . . .

Now, y'all should know, and take into account--in advance, based on secret information and agendas--that I only know what I read on Internet Message Boards (and mebee in The Gazette . . . or perhaps in a stray, discarded copy of The Oklahoman since Talk Radio died in OKC some time ago) . . . But based on the so-called facts (and hidden faxes) about all o' the good-ol'-boy ('n gal) City Council backroom wheelin'-dealin' and backstabbin' chattle-rustlin' and so-forth, as reported in here, it looks like Oklahoma City is well positioned--and well on the way--to becoming The Proverbial Shinin' Major League City on The Hill (except, of course, fer bein' on The Plains).

Yes, indeed . . . A Major League City . . . Like Seattle (The Killing) . . . Baltimore (The Wire) . . . Vancouver (DaVinci's Inquest) . . . Deadwood (Deadwood) . . . or even Rome (Rome, NY: "The Sopranos II" or Rome, Italy "I, Claudius").

Seems like someone in here, on this thread, observed much earlier (and sorta' correctly, in my humble, lasso-twirlin', opinion) that "The Having of It Their Way" by "The Early-Day 'Lassie-Fair' Capitalist Fathers o' The City" provided railroads, industry, lumber, housing and etc. to the strugglin' tent city that once comprised OKC. Why, who knows, they might even have ponied-up the under-the-table money to relocate The State Seal from Guthrie. Still, thinkin' back, I seem to recall that The Early Day Capitalists o' OKC used their own money rather than relying on The Sales Tax Dollars of The Unwashed Masses and Tax Incentives derived, therefrom, to realize "their" dreams . . . That, somehow, turned out to be "the dreams of all of us" with, of course, the later approval and support of The Chamber of Commerce or The City Council.

And that, my friends, is The Miracle of Modern Capitalism (spec.ref. MAPx) when combined with Effective Advertising.
(And especially that excellent advertising featuring a slick, polished, former Sports Broadcaster).

So . . . Since Problem-Pointers are a dime a dozen and Solution Providers are a rare breed indeed . . .
An' jist t' keep ever'body happy . . . Mebee someone should start workin' on a large statue of Pluto for The Park.
Perhaps pictured as ridin' a colorful buffalo?
(In honor of "Plutocracy" . . . Replete with a pre-weathered brass plaque listing those responsible for its presence.)

The Artistic Fees and Patronage Kickbacks produced by such a donation to The Communal Right Brain could easily offset--and perhaps in some small measure, ameliorate--the selfish, Left-BrainiacHighwayEngineerianTransportationalBastardi zation of The Artistic Vision of The Original Pedestrian Bridge Design (involving Form/Function real (expensive) cables instead of Faux/Fantasy safety cables) and provide a favorable Cost/Value/Message ratio at the same time.

If, of course, you don't nit-pick.

Still . . . I jist have t' interject, at this point, that The Sidewalk Placement Timeline Controversy is a real puzzler:
The active, expansive, clay soil we are blessed with around here, sidewalks (like roads) quickly (like, within about one year or less) become more of an ongoing liability than an asset, what with your basic Tripping Hazards and so forth, plus the required constant monitoring of deflection from the intended and mandated plane for pedestrian traffic. (Note that pedestrians rather than bicycles were specifically mentioned here.) Admittedly, this could be a boon to Underemployed Over Advertising Personal Injury Lawyers . . . But you know how we feel about "lawyers" . . . Besides that, Purchasing Destinations are so sprawled out--in terms of finding a place to purchase something worth buying--who is actually going to use them? Especially during an Ice Storm or when the temperature is bumping 106?

Oh. Sorry: I almost forgot: Joggers and Folks in Wheelchairs.
Installing sidewalks as soon as possible would serve to lend a sense or credibility t' all o' them Federally Funded Concrete Intersection Ramps (from nowhere to nowhere regardless of surrounding terrain, utilities and whatnots) that have decorated the local landscape as part of the "Federal Economic Stimulus Program" over the last couple of years.

I sit corrected.

Except for this:
Apparently there is (what we might call) an Honor Deficit among some of the individuals comprising The OKC City Council.
Apparently Virtual Reality is more important than Virtuous Reality.

[OKCMallen]

I can't help but think Mick is burning through all the goodwill he has bult up from the populace with these tactics. Even I think this was a crap move.

"The mob is fickle, brother."

[betts]

I'm not sure Mick is the one we should be blaming. Unless this is all part of a super secret plan he's had all along and the park and substation convention sites were red herrings. I'm thinking it's time to blame Canada.

[RadicalModerate]

CANADA!

Of course!!!
(The Back Door of NAFTA)

[Doug Loudenback]

I've got the 4+ hour council meeting downloaded now but won't have time to extract only the parts which pertain to this discussion until after I return from a holiday around June 14.

I encourage the reading of this fine article by Grace Gordon www.okc.net.

In my absence, I request that all votes on anything substantive be deferred ... oh ... wait ... I don't get to vote again until a bit less than 2 years from now in the next round of council elections. Oh ... make that 4 years, since my Ward 6 just had its election. Oh, well ...

[Doug Loudenback]

I'm not sure Mick is the one we should be blaming. Unless this is all part of a super secret plan he's had all along and the park and substation convention sites were red herrings. I'm thinking it's time to blame Canada.

We should be blaming everyone who voted against the deferral request, Betts, including the mayor.

[betts]

Did he vote against the deferral request? I didn't notice he was voting at that point in time, just noticed there were only two votes to defer. If he did, then I agree, he can be blamed as much as anyone else.

[Doug Loudenback]

Did he vote against the deferral request? I didn't notice he was voting at that point in time, just noticed there were only two votes to defer. If he did, then I agree, he can be blamed as much as anyone else.

Unless I am badly mistaken, only 2 votes favored the deferral ... I don't have time to review the entire video right now, but if the mayor wasn't present, he should have been and he should have voted to defer ... he is the leader, ain't he?

On another matter, why am I still reading and posting at OkcTalk when I should be getting ready to go to the beach? Maybe I'll get my priorities in better order while I eat some butterfly shrimp on the barbe, see some cool beach babes, and put these old feet in the fine curing tonic known as the Gulf of Mexico. Ahhh ... gotta go, now ...

[soonerguru]

That's sort of my point. There is no one metric that is superior to all others.
To some, if we were only doing a 700+ million cc, that would be gravy on the biscuit.
To others, the rapids at the riverfront ought to be 2x or better the scope of what is presently envisioned, with still more spent to make the riverfront THE future.
To others, even more sidewalks and trails are vastly superior to even the minor remodel of the Cox arena to aid the Barons.
To others, multiple new fire rigs, well trained staff on board today, recruited in from other communities of similar size, all fully equipped, with similar improvement, or better, for the policia, are way more important than sidewalks, pools for seniors,or a basement cc for trade shows they will never attend.

None of those perspectives are invalid in general, and certainly not invalid to their proponents.

But the citizens who could vote turned out and voted for a blank slate tax increase,with some promises of some projects. One or two pols, none of whom had the stick to enforce their voice, said this or that ought to happen, perhaps even were so bold as to say this or that WILL happen. Blah, blah, blah. Promises at campaign time. Keep them or dump them next time around, but sheesh, don't treat pol speak as being Gospel.

So it finally came time to decide what will happen when, a real honest to goodness, can now hold someone accountable vote.

Some folks understood the difference in hopes and press releases and desire and reality. So they stepped up, filled a void and they shaped things to go their way, while others sat back and either watched with astonishment or were a tad too secure on their own agendas and beliefs and merely assumed they held a winning hand in a wide open no limits game. In short, some folks worked the system while others waited for the system to work the way they hoped it might.

Right or wrong from the perspective of X, those who take on the bull often get the horns as their prize, or if they lack experience, they get gored. Those who controlled the pace and direction for the voted timeline are not folks who tend to get gored when they go after the bull.

Should the cc be first? Not in my personal opinion. Did I lift a finger to prevent it, or to advance my own personal fav, the park, to happen first? Nope, just held out hope, and watched as it diminished almost daily over the span of a few weeks. Lots of people desiring other projects did pretty much the same thing.

Truthfully, at this point, I do not believe the park will ever be as it was pitched, not in four years, not in thirty four years. I'll get over it. I've survived far bigger disappointments, and am working through a whopper of a new one this week.

They're counting on you getting over it so they can get their way. I'm not saying you should suck your thumb, or act like an infant, but it's OK to hold their feet to the fire. We're becoming a real big city, and in real big cities, people don't just get to do whatever they want without a fight. Why are you quitting before the discussion is complete?

[soonerguru]

It's not as though he's STFU and done what the chamber tells him, you mean.

Plus rep, yo.

[soonerguru]

I'm not sure Mick is the one we should be blaming. Unless this is all part of a super secret plan he's had all along and the park and substation convention sites were red herrings. I'm thinking it's time to blame Canada.

The mayor, whom I've supported, played a part in screwing councilman Shadid on this matter. He deserves all the criticism leveled at him on this thread. Personally, I'm surprised he would be so petty as to participate in this manner. He always seemed like a classy guy to me.

[betts]

They're counting on you getting over it so they can get their way. I'm not saying you should suck your thumb, or act like an infant, but it's OK to hold their feet to the fire. We're becoming a real big city, and in real big cities, people don't just get to do whatever they want without a fight. Why are you quitting before the discussion is complete?

They're going to get their way regardless, since at this point in time, there is a majority "coalition" in the council and the timeline passed. I don't mind a little holding of feet to the fire, but if it gets too strident, we just get tuned out. Better, I think, to be quietly rational and pick our battles. There could end up being far bigger ones than this, and it's best not to burn all bridges.

[kevinpate]

... Why are you quitting before the discussion is complete?

The park, like many, many things, simply became far less important to me this week. Spending time with my remaining family is the new priority. Where and what we do are largely irrelevant, so long as we regularly do.

[Larry OKC]

Sadly, the sidewalk issue is part of the big lie. We were told before voting for the 2007 bond issue and before MAPS 3 that the sidewalk issue was to put sidewalks in Oklahoma City neighborhoods that were built without them. This promise is one of the reasons both issues passed. Without that promise, both issues would have likely failed. We voters have been deceived BIG TIME.

This is why I would sign an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early and vote for it. Maybe someday city leaders will not promise something they have no intention of delivering. I think it is voter pay back time.

Do you have a link on that by chance? I think you are only remembering half of what was promised on sidewalks, and that is that they would be built as part of street widening projects, if there is no street widening, no sidewalk (at least with the 07 bond). That is why it was under the Proposition 1. We have a gazillion (hyperbole) miles of roads that were built over the decades without sidewalks. They can't just go in and build them everywhere, it has do be done gradually. I understand that is going to leave lots of sidewalks to nowhere, but it is a start. Now if the place listed for widening in the bond issue doesn't end up getting sidewalks, then you and the rest of the voters were deceived.

The money in MAPS 3 is to help fill in those gaps (in front of public places), that aren't already covered in the 07 bond.

Understand, I agree with the bolded part in your last paragraph. I have been quite vocal about that danger. But in this case, I think it is misplaced.

[soonerguru]

They're going to get their way regardless, since at this point in time, there is a majority "coalition" in the council and the timeline passed. I don't mind a little holding of feet to the fire, but if it gets too strident, we just get tuned out. Better, I think, to be quietly rational and pick our battles. There could end up being far bigger ones than this, and it's best not to burn all bridges.

Betts, I've always been a pragmatist. I don't believe in being "strident" for the sake of being strident. But sometimes you have to call out a bully. I'm concerned we'll end up with a slippery slope of giving in and throwing in our chips when in fact we have much more power. I don't agree with giving in to bullies.

[betts]

As I said, I don't mind a bit of complaining. I think there's reason. But, I don't necessarily agree with the slippery slope concept here. I believe you save your political capital (if there's any to be had) for the things that really make a difference. To me, moving up a project we were going to get regardless is not an issue worth raging about. In the long run, we will all hopefully get every project. If not, that's when to not go gentle into that good night.