Streetcar

[soonerguru]

The only negativity is on you, unless you consider me proving you wrong as being negative. Thanks for taking a pass on the steak dinner, I was able to order the 24 oz instead of th 16 oz, was deinately your loss. (steak and company).

You've proven nothing other than the fact that you're simply unwilling to consider the evidence of multiple cities seeing a bonanza of private investment, or transit oriented development, along their streetcar lines.

Your central thesis has been proven wrong from Salt Lake to Tucson, but you cling to it still. Sorry, since you're obviously impervious to facts and logic on this subject, I don't know what else can be said, other than the plea: Please stop ****tting on this thread.

[rcjunkie]

You've proven nothing other than the fact that you're simply unwilling to consider the evidence of multiple cities seeing a bonanza of private investment, or transit oriented development, along their streetcar lines.

Your central thesis has been proven wrong from Salt Lake to Tucson, but you cling to it still. Sorry, since you're obviously impervious to facts and logic on this subject, I don't know what else can be said, other than the plea: Please stop ****tting on this thread.

It's an open forum, one where everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours, I have mine, lets talk in a few years and see who gets to say 'gotcha".

[PennyQuilts]

Why do you say "we don't agree on this?" Earlier in the thread you said you hoped the streetcar would work. If so, you and I agree on that. Perhaps you don't really believe in the streetcar, but hope it somehow works, in which case we partially agree. But based on what you say it's not clear we completely disagree.

I do disagree with you, however, on your central argument that the streetcar should somehow be held to a higher standard of "paying for itself," a standard which no other transportation medium -- most of all roads and highways -- meets.

Please clarify if I'm wrong or if you indeed "hope" the streetcar works.

Also, please explain the fiduciary sanity of continuing to build, maintain -- and widen -- roads all the way to Piedmont.

Yes, of course I hope it will work. Why in the world would anyone be against sucess? This is not a religious or moral issue, after all. I am not against streetcars in principal, whatsoever. I am simply highly sceptical that it will work in oKC and would hate to see the streetcar system turn into something just like our bus system - we bought it, we're stuck with it, no one uses it but it still costs money. If it works, great. I just don't see that we have a situation that, absent significant changes in driving habits, attitudes or costs, would make that a good bet.

I'm not getting into the propriety of building roads to Piedmont because I don't know enough about the area to comment. Last I checked, it was a growing area but I couldn't begin to discuss how the area is changing or what its needs are likely to be in the next 20 years.

[betts]

Again, if we assume things and/or people cannot change, they definitely won't. We've seen some great changes in this city and the way people think already. Let's not sell ourselves short.

[Just the facts]

If you have any doubt, any doubt what-so-ever, about the potential for the streetcar, visit downtown Memphis. The streetcar will not just redirect development from other parts of the city as some claim (althought that will happen), it will change the economics of the situtation and projects that were never before viable (in any part of the city) will become viable. This will happen in a greater magnitude than most of you will ever dare to imagine. The beauty of a country as large as ours is that we can see examples from others and decide what does and doesn't work. Building streetcars to attract development and improve the quality of life for people that choose to use it - works. Is it a 100% can't miss type of deal? Nope, but it is about as close as you will ever get to one.

[Urban Pioneer]

Is that from the hub studies? It sounds encouraging, I just didn't think a formal engineering study had started yet. Has the streetcar subcommittee entered into a formal engineering contract yet?

That is from the streetcar AA study. We haven't been able to pursue a design engineer as of yet as the MAPS office is awaiting the City Council to approve the MAPS 3 project schedule.

They will be voting on it now, within the next couple of hours.

The environmental analysis contract was approved last Friday morning. So that will be starting almost immediately.

[mcca7596]

Thanks for the info as always Urban Pioneer!

[Just the facts]

Just rename the streetcar the Convention Center Transportation Component and start work immediately.

[Just the facts]

So no streetcar until 2021. 10 freaking years from now. I'm done with this crap. Peace out and have nice life.

[betts]

So no streetcar until 2021. 10 freaking years from now. I'm done with this crap. Peace out and have nice life.

What? Where are you reading that?

[Urban Pioneer]

So no streetcar until 2021. 10 freaking years from now. I'm done with this crap. Peace out and have nice life.

Actual streetcar construction is 3-4 years out with some degree of service potentially start within 4-5 years.

I think there is a great deal of confusion in the public about the timeline. Some key streetcar advocates protested. But it is important to know what it was that they were protesting.

Most of the protest was directed at the process, not the timeline.

The "Phase 2" of transit is delayed by two years, I don't hold much credence to the timeline overall that far out. The "Investigations and standards Phase" has been subsequently clarified and most of us are reasonably comfortable with it.

[David]

In the end, my only real concern about fiddling with the timeline is whether it could threaten our chances of getting federal money. So far it sounds like that hasn't happened, am I correct in that?

[betts]

The timeline shouldn't affect federal funding. In fact, because we now have an official timeline, we can actually move forward. I was more worried about federal funding affecting future MAPS funding. But even that is idle speculation, and it's way too early to worry about something like that.

[Cocaine]

The timeline shouldn't affect federal funding. In fact, because we now have an official timeline, we can actually move forward. I was more worried about federal funding affecting future MAPS funding. But even that is idle speculation, and it's way too early to worry about something like that.

Well I'm not sure if well be able to get federal funding with how the debt situation is going. But hopefully we will be able to get funding.

[Larry OKC]

This may be the case, there was a very recent article in the paper saying that the relocated I-40 crosstown is possibly in limbo again!

[Just the facts]

When people use the phrase "married to their car" when talking about people who refuse to give up their cars, this is the type of person they must be talking about. This quote is from an article about the State of California temporarily closing a portion of the 405 freeway in LA.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNRG1KA982.DTL

"My fiance and I have been making plans to not go anywhere that we can't get to on our bikes or by foot," said Anne Chang, a 31-year-old attorney who lives in Santa Monica. "I'm not planning to get in my car all weekend." And that would be a big change for the couple.

"We're kind of looking forward to it but we don't plan on making it a habit," she said. "We don't want to confine ourselves."

I find the "We don't want to confine ourselves" to be a very interesting take on the subject. It will be interesting to see if they still feel confined after walking everywhere for 2 days. If they live in a subdivision like me, walking (or even biking) is flat out not an option. The nearest business from my home is almost 2 miles. The nearest grocery store is 4 miles. This is why I want to move to an area where I am literally not confined - to my car.

[Spartan]

So no streetcar until 2021. 10 freaking years from now. I'm done with this crap. Peace out and have nice life.

I know it's frustrating, but nothing has ever arrived on a silver platter. OKC has never been advertised as anything other than a work in progress anyway, and that certainly has its appeal, also. It is what it is, you know.

[Larry OKC]

Welcome back Spartan!

[Spartan]

Welcome back Spartan!

Not completely, but Tuesday.. and thanks Larry!

[betts]

I know it's frustrating, but nothing has ever arrived on a silver platter. OKC has never been advertised as anything other than a work in progress anyway, and that certainly has its appeal, also. It is what it is, you know.

Spartan, I realize you haven't been here for awhile. But it's incorrect to say we won't have a streetcar before 2021. There will be a second phase to the streetcar that could add an additional two miles to an existing four mile route or, if we get federal funding, the second phase would add an additional 2 miles (approximately) to an approximately six mile existing route. That second phase is what has an estimated completion date of 2021. Most of the articles that have been written about the timeline are too simplistic and don't discuss the phases as scheduled.

[Just the facts]

Betts - under the adopted timeline, what is the soonest a line will be open, how long will it be, and where will it go?

[Spartan]

Spartan, I realize you haven't been here for awhile. But it's incorrect to say we won't have a streetcar before 2021. There will be a second phase to the streetcar that could add an additional two miles to an existing four mile route or, if we get federal funding, the second phase would add an additional 2 miles (approximately) to an approximately six mile existing route. That second phase is what has an estimated completion date of 2021. Most of the articles that have been written about the timeline are too simplistic and don't discuss the phases as scheduled.

Betts, I know it's been a while, and I know recently I've only been able to get my information from what news outlets and this forum put out, BUT please remind me where I said we won't have streetcar until 2021.

When it comes to how frustrating progress in OKC can be, I don't think the streetcar is the lone issue. I was just suggesting to accept the idea that progress on these issues has to be fought for, won't just be handed on a silver platter.

[Urban Pioneer]

Betts - under the adopted timeline, what is the soonest a line will be open, how long will it be, and where will it go?

The Santa Fe Station to Midtown is presumably the first segment with the absolute fastest being 4 years out but more likely 5.

[Just the facts]

The Santa Fe Station to Midtown is presumably the first segment with the absolute fastest being 4 years out but more likely 5.

Thanks UP. That time line puts us at 2016. The convention center will not be on the first line that opens?

[Spartan]

Thanks UP. That time line puts us at 2016. The convention center will not be on the first line that opens?

That's a whole new can of worms, timing-wise, that I am hoping dust has not yet settled on.