LifeChurchTV

[Faith]

okcgoddess, just to let you know about the upcoming message this weekend. As osupa indicated, the series is called "going all the way" in relation to better, truer relationships with your S/O. However, it is recommend that this coming Sunday (1/29), children below the 5th grade level should go to "LifeKids" (is that the name of it, osupa?) I believe this Sunday's topic will be addressing Sex and obviously, that's for parents to decide, but okcgoddess, I'd hate for you to go in without knowing.

Thanks Sweetdaisy and Osupa for the heads up on this weekends service. I will definitely send the kidos to the "LifeKids". I'm not ready to start discussing Sex with my 5 year old! Besides that it sounds as if the kids program will be alot of fun for him. Do they have a nursery for the babies. I didn't see anything about a nursery on their website.

[Patrick]

Some Catholic Churches actually do pay their musicians salaries. I know of one in the metro that does that. However, there are still quite a few "full stewardship" parishes. In these churches, the only salaries go to the clergy (and they are paid very small salaries).

Your ignorance aside, the comparison doesn't even come close to passing muster. If you can find me one other church that has charity spending anywhere remotely close (and we can even talk per capita) to the Catholic church, I'll be extremely surprised.

I expect that you'll have no such luck.

I didn't intend for this to be a Catholic vs. Lifechurch discussion, but I guess you want to make it that. Very well.. state some facts upon which you want to base an argument.

Or you can just continue to spew ignorance.. suits me either way.

Any stats to back up your comment that the Catholic Church spends more on charitable causes than any other denomination? Last I heard, the Southern Baptist Convention spent the more than any other religious group on charitable causes, through their Disaster Relief, Retirement Centers, International Missions Board (the largest missions organization in the world), North American Missions Board, Orphanages, Baptist Collegiate Ministries, the Cooperative Program, Woman's Missionary Union, etc.

[Midtowner]

Patrick, it's hard to tally up. The Catholic Church is multinational, and the vast majority of its holdings are not in the U.S. While I'm sure that there are Baptists in places other than the U.S., I doubt that there's a number anywhere even remotely comparable to Catholics -- this makes the tabulation difficult.

In the U.S., there are several Catholic Charity organizations. The organization of the Church is complex -- there are several orders that answer directly to the Pope. We have diocese (dioci?) and archdiocese (archdioci?), bishops, archbishops, you get the idea.

Probably the largest charity umbrella that I know of is Catholic Charities -- they have an office on Classen somewhere near 14th.

From their website:

Overall, Catholic Charities agencies have about 51,000 paid staff (51,004) and more than 168,000 (168,548) volunteers-nearly four times as many as paid staff. Another 7,335 individuals serve as volunteer members of local boards.

The collective income for Catholic Charities agencies is $2.69 billion, with expenditures of $2.58 billion.

Catholic Charities of course is just one umbrella organization that receives some of its funding from church sources and other funding from private and public grants.

I doubt anyone keeps track of the work done by actual individual parishes. However, from my direct involvement, I'll tell you that it's quite substantial.

Other interesting demographics, none of which show charitable giving: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html

[metro]

yes LifeChurch has a huge ministry for babies. The OKC campus pretty much has a miniature Disney world for kids and the infants and toddlers section is pretty wild too. They had a theme park company from Florida come build it all

[sweetdaisy]

Okcgoddess! Did you get to visit LifeChurch today? If so, what did you think????

[Patrick]

I get your point Midtowner.

[Midtowner]

Patrick, are you just trying to appease me?

[Patrick]

Patrick, are you just trying to appease me?

Only if you'll cover my malpractice cases, in exchange for free medical care! LOL!

[Midtowner]

Patrick, we both know you'll never have to face a malpractice case.

2 reasons:

#1: You'll be a perfect doctor.

#2: The insurance providers that pay medmal claims are making it damned near impossible to have any success with medical malpractice claims (and extremly expensive). In 10-15 years, doctors should be all but immune from malpractice suits.

[metro]

what does all that have to do with Lifechurch. Back to topic

[writerranger]

yes LifeChurch has a huge ministry for babies. The OKC campus pretty much has a miniature Disney world for kids and the infants and toddlers section is pretty wild too. They had a theme park company from Florida come build it all

I think people here will just have to agree to disagree. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. For me, it's unbelievable that a church would spend money hiring a theme park company(!) from Florida to build a "miniature Disney World" at their church....err...."campus." Times have changed and some of us have a hard time with Church as just an extension of the need for individuals to be entertained and stimulated at all times. I can't help but go back to the Sermon On The Mount and try to justify any of this. I'm no bible scholar, but I think that's the point, it doesn't take one to see that worship-as-entertainment and theme park companies being hired to build mini-theme parks at church is a long way from the message of Christ. As I said, I think some of us will just have to agree to disagree.

[Midtowner]

Write, I refer to it as entertainment, not religion. I sometimes refer to it as the "Rock 'n Roll Jeebus" phenomenon.

I have a generally low opinion of these establishments. Of course, my younger brother and his wife attend the Life East location (which I think is the corporate office). These types of 'churches' are more like three-ring circuses than houses of worship.

I see it as part of the 'dumbing down' of America -- religion in particular. Charismatics such as these tend down to look down their noses at more traditional philosophical and academic approaches to faith.

Agreement to disagree is about the best that can be done.

[Randy]

Write, I refer to it as entertainment, not religion. I sometimes refer to it as the "Rock 'n Roll Jeebus" phenomenon.

I have a generally low opinion of these establishments. Of course, my younger brother and his wife attend the Life East location (which I think is the corporate office). These types of 'churches' are more like three-ring circuses than houses of worship.

I see it as part of the 'dumbing down' of America -- religion in particular. Charismatics such as these tend down to look down their noses at more traditional philosophical and academic approaches to faith.

Agreement to disagree is about the best that can be done.

These type of worship services are not entertainment to most Christians, it is worship. We don't attend services to be entertained, we attend to worship God. Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday. When it is the same ole service every Sunday, then it has lost it's savor.

You can call them three ring circuses if you want to, but we will call them houses of praise and worship. Your younger brother has made a good choice on where to worship.

I have read many of your posts, and have concluded that you don't care much for "religion" or "church" in general, nor do you care much for anybody else's denomination except your own.

[Midtowner]

Randy, you contradict yourself. First, you state that you don't attend these to be entertained and then you say that "nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine church service on Sunday."

Randy, which is it?

Your conclusion from reading my posts is incorrect. I care very much for church and religion, just not Rock 'n Roll Jeebus, the Three Ring Circus, Biblical literalism, and fundamentalist religion in general. The rest is a-ok.

[Randy]

Randy, you contradict yourself. First, you state that you don't attend these to be entertained and then you say that "nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine church service on Sunday."

Randy, which is it?

Your conclusion from reading my posts is incorrect. I care very much for church and religion, just not Rock 'n Roll Jeebus, the Three Ring Circus, Biblical literalism, and fundamentalist religion in general. The rest is a-ok.

I did not contradict myself. Maybe you should read a little closer in to it. I attend a church that believes in praise and worship, raising our arms towards heaven, and singing praise songs to God. The kind you don't like. Evidently, you like a church that just sings a few songs, and then the preacher preaches with no feeling or spiritual guidance. That's boring, and it is not worship to me. If I want entertainment, I'll go home after praise and worship and watch fooball on TV.

Now, if you still don't get it, I really don't know of a way to explain it to you better.

[writerranger]

Randy, If entertainment isn't an issue, why did they hire a theme park developer from Florida to design the kids ministry? I was once very much a part of the charismatic scene and was disillusioned by the infighting, church splits to start another church, which split to start three more, ad infinitum. I saw it for what it was - and to me - it wasn't about the Christ of the bible. One thing they all had in common was the entertainment approach to worship. It's not the raising of hands, tongues, etc. that you described, it is the full-blown bands, the fog machines, the giant screens, shall I go on? To deny that these churches are not interested in entertaining its crowd is to deny what is happening before your very eyes. It is entertainment. Now, we have these "franchised" churches (better know as churches run by pastorpreneurs). Interesting article about this bizarre phenomenon:
http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5323597

[Jack]

If anyone wants any concessions, they're available at the back of the auditorium. Feel free to eat popcorn and slirp and icee anytime during the experience.

[Midtowner]

I did not contradict myself. Maybe you should read a little closer in to it. I attend a church that believes in praise and worship, raising our arms towards heaven, and singing praise songs to God. The kind you don't like. Evidently, you like a church that just sings a few songs, and then the preacher preaches with no feeling or spiritual guidance. That's boring, and it is not worship to me. If I want entertainment, I'll go home after praise and worship and watch fooball on TV.

Now, if you still don't get it, I really don't know of a way to explain it to you better.

Randy, sweety, I did read your words, in one sentence, you said it was "entertainment," in the next, you said that you didn't like churches that were "boring."

And here again, you claim that certain types of services are boring.. it is not unreasonable to assume that you are saying that you will only attend a church that is not boring... What is a word that describes something not boring? Entertaining comes to mind..

The pastor at my church, is a brilliant guy. His sermons are well researched -- academic even. I'm worried that they're often above most people's heads. For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need.

I'm a musician, and I can deal with the bad (really bad) music. I can deal with the lack of entertainment value, etc. All of that allows me to be more attentive to the message and closer to the meaning of the service.

Jesus' mission was not to entertain and excite you. He came for your salvation. You might want to consider what a vast difference there is between entertainment and salvation.

-- and say hi to the folks in the store in the back that sells t-shirts and other merchandise for me. k?

[Jack]

I will say Life Church has a nice coffee shop in the back. Sorta like Starbucks.

I do say, I think some of the things Life Church does are disrespectful.

For instance, their baptism bashes! How irreverent. Baptism Bash?

Their late service is called High Octane. I can just see now in heaven how we're all going to go to High Octane, ride the carousel, and watch movies on the big screens, etc. I bet God won't even show up. He'll simply be on the big screen and you can watch Him there, whenever you want. Oh, don't worry about being inconvienced. If you want to sleep in and watch the ballgame, feel free to download God's word for the day later on the computer.

I think Life Church is doing a fine job, but at the same time some of their stuff is going a tad bit too far.

[Randy]

Randy, sweety, I did read your words, in one sentence, you said it was "entertainment," in the next, you said that you didn't like churches that were "boring."

And here again, you claim that certain types of services are boring.. it is not unreasonable to assume that you are saying that you will only attend a church that is not boring... What is a word that describes something not boring? Entertaining comes to mind..

The pastor at my church, is a brilliant guy. His sermons are well researched -- academic even. I'm worried that they're often above most people's heads. For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need.

I'm a musician, and I can deal with the bad (really bad) music. I can deal with the lack of entertainment value, etc. All of that allows me to be more attentive to the message and closer to the meaning of the service.

Jesus' mission was not to entertain and excite you. He came for your salvation. You might want to consider what a vast difference there is between entertainment and salvation.

-- and say hi to the folks in the store in the back that sells t-shirts and other merchandise for me. k?

Just what I thought, dumplin', you still don't get it. Ay, yes, coming from a "Christian" that uses profanity in his posts. Oh well, say a few "hail Mary's," and you will be just fine. You are right about one thing (for once). Jesus is not here to entertain me, but he is here to excite me. He puts excitement in my life, so that I can go out and spread the Good News about salvation.

" For me, that and the eucharist are all the spiritual food I need."

I finally found the problem. You are not getting fed enough spiritually if the statement above is what you believe.


Hmm., I bet you even question your "pastor" about his sermons. Show me the facts!

[Jack]

Midtowner, do you confess to your priest? I mean, what's the need. Your priest is just as sinful as you are, right? What makes him any higher? We're all imperfect people.

[Midtowner]

Profanity darling? Where have I used that? I say nothing that can't be said on TV.

The anti-Catholic comments are noted. What are you implying here? Can you make an intelligent comment/arguement, or are your abilities in using the written word limited to swill such as the above?

Let's get back to the fact that you contradict yourself which you seem not to want to admit even though it's plainly obvious. In one sentence, you said:

"We don't attend services to be entertained," and in the next sentence, you said "Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday."

Think really hard back to grade school -- you learned important concepts there. Two (or really one) that will come in quite handy in catching yourself making self-contradictory arguments is/are the differenc(es) between syonyms and antenyms.

You see, a synonym is two things that are the same -- say I say that I'm entertained. I could also say that I was amused. Amused and entertain mean the same thing, thus they are synonyms.

As for antenyms, those two things are diff-er-ent. For example, you said you "Didn't" want to be entertained in one sentence and then you said that you wouldn't go to a boring service. You see.. entertained and bored are diff-er-ent -- they're antenyms.

Now, here's the neat part. Since you used the word "entertain" in a negative context, in other words, you didn't go to be entertained, it would have been the same thing as saying "I don't want to be not bored" (as awkward as it is). Then you turned around and said you wouldn't want to go to a not boreing service... So in essence, you said:

1. 'I don't go to be not bored.' Then,
2. 'I would not go if it made me bored.'

Now that I've spelled that out for you in such a way that first grader could understand it, not allowing for nasty little abstract and complicated terms that might confuse, please address it.

I look forward to your reply.

[Jack]

Why does something that's not boring have to be entertaining. I've been to plenty of chruch services that aren't "entertainment oriented" but aren't boring. Sitting through a service and hearing a monotone preacher read syllable after syllable of the book of Judges is boring. Hearing an enlightened pastor talk about Adam and Eve and how it relates to today's life, is interesting. That doesn't make it entertaining though.

[Midtowner]

Jack, the difference is that your second preacher doesn't need to have professional musicians, a full time video editing staff, dry ice, etc.

I'd say that the differences are signficant.

[Jack]

I concur.