Crossroads Mall

[mcca7596]

The fact remains that Crossroads mall area has awful demographic data.

I certainly don't deny that.

[Snowman]

I know where you are talking about, basically east of Morgan road. It's Mustang schools and all those people more so identify with Mustang even though they have an Oklahoma City address.

I guess there are better demographics in Oklahoma City proper around that area than I first thought.

I think you mean west of morgan, around nw 5th is the dividing line in which go to yukon and which go to mustang.

[SoonerDave]

You are missing the point. While people from all over the metro will come to a destination retail setting, the developers generally don't consider that. Developers look at the 5 mile and 10 mile median income (sometimes the 15 mile). The fact remains that Crossroads mall area has awful demographic data.

Your facts are in error.

The highest per-capita income density demographic in the central part of Oklahoma is at the edge of that 10-mile radius, anchored by areas such as Rivendell, Greenbriar, and Lakeridge Run (to name a few). That's one of the reasons Odom built the Chatenay shopping center at SW 104th and Penn. I have to admit that I was stunned when I saw that data, because I thought there was no way that area could eclipse Edmond or north OKC, but sure enough...

Not saying that fact alone could justify the resuscitation of Crossroads, because the *one-mile* radius around the mall is troubled, and will likely become even moreso in the next decade when they really do decide to rebuild the I-240/I-35 interchange...but the notion that the area is devoid of potential shopping dollars is simply inaccurate.

[KarenAGypsy]

Maybe those stupid business colleges will be ran out of town too. So worthless.

Remember that the next time you need an X-Ray or other medical test done and there's a knowledgable and well trained tech there to do it for you.

Where do you think those skills are learned? On the job training?

[oneforone]

No matter what happens somebody is going to have invest a ton of money to bring the place back to being useful again. Tearing it down is going to cost millions if not billions. Renovation is going to cost millions if not billions. We need to he honest about this and realize Crossroads retail days are long gone. It won't be long before big box retail becomes a thing of the past. Almost all retailers including Best Buy and Walmart are realizing that people are not frequenting the larger stores as much. Online shopping and the desire to consume less is making the big stores harder to stock. I noticed most supercenters in the city have scaled back on stock. They are now stocking what will move fast an strategically placing seasonal items near the exits to cater to the customer who only plans to get one or two items and get out. The two east side stores seem to make it a point to have the express checkouts and self checkouts all open while only keeping a handful open for the basket full crowd.

I think the best use for Crossroads would be a mix use of medical clinics, city, state and federal offices that see high traffic. Such as DPS licensing, vital records, passports, a satellite center for city and county courts, a hub center for city buses. They could convert the inner walking area to an indoor city park with picnic areas, playgrounds, amphitheaters, walking trail, minature golf, the list goes on.


The only option we should not do is let the place sit and slowly die. If that happens one many commercial property slumlords will likely buy and let it rot until the city is forced to tear it down for health and safety reasons.

[bombermwc]

Not entirely accurate there. What big box stores are learning, is how to correctly use "just in time" inventory. Many lessons can be learned from Home Depot to cite an example. They have always used a business model in their inventory that maximizes profit from inventory.

Take a box of electrical outlets on a trip through their system. They order the shipment from the manufacturer and it arrives on a semi at the distribution center. That shipment NEVER makes it to a shelf at the distribution center...EVER. In less than an hour, that product has distributed itself to various belts that split the large order up to many smaller orders to be palletized for individual stores and is back out the door. So from the time the shipment arrives at the dock, in less than an hour, it's already on a truck out to the store. So the traditional idea of a large distribution enter with stacks of shelving with forklifts running arround to create a store delivery are non-existent. That ability to push the inventory down to the store level means they save TONS of money.

So I wouldn't say the big box store is gone, but it will turn into survival of the fittest, like any capitalist venture. Those that are able to adjust, survive.

But that is all totally irrelevant to something like a mall. It's not big-box, it's a collection of strip-mall size shops. Yes there are anchors, but those stores didn't all die, they simply moved. Penny's went to MWC and Moore and are making a tone more money now. Sears was smart from the start and never went into Crossroads and still kicks it on Western. Wards went bankrupt, Dillard's and Macy's just left. Again, thost that could adjust, survived and didn't go bankrupt. You don't see Penny's, Koh'ls, Belks, etc in danger of filing Chapter 11.

[megax11]

I can almost bet that anyone who wishes for CRM to turn into an office complex, lives close to a mall, or a better selection of stores, unlike us southsiders.

Those people should live on southside OKC, and see what they think about the retail selection around here, instead of always thinking anything on southside should be nothing more than government or medical offices.

[soonerliberal]

Your facts are in error.

The highest per-capita income density demographic in the central part of Oklahoma is at the edge of that 10-mile radius, anchored by areas such as Rivendell, Greenbriar, and Lakeridge Run (to name a few). That's one of the reasons Odom built the Chatenay shopping center at SW 104th and Penn. I have to admit that I was stunned when I saw that data, because I thought there was no way that area could eclipse Edmond or north OKC, but sure enough...

But you are ignoring the 75 percent of the neighborhoods and apartments within that 5 mile radius that are low income. Indeed, 73170 is the highest income zip code in the state, BUT the circle around Crossroads only skirts the area. It also totally encompasses some very low income zip codes and some low to average income zipcodes (73139/part of 59).

[soonerliberal]

I can almost bet that anyone who wishes for CRM to turn into an office complex, lives close to a mall, or a better selection of stores, unlike us southsiders.

Those people should live on southside OKC, and see what they think about the retail selection around here, instead of always thinking anything on southside should be nothing more than government or medical offices.

I lived near 104th and Western for around 18 years. Crossroads is not the end all be all for retail. There is plenty of room (both financially and physically) on the southside for more retail. However, there are plenty of other areas on the southside that are proper for greater retail growth.

[earlywinegareth]

Which is why I am eager to see what develops along the I-44 corridor east of the airport. The "Westmoore" area of OKC is an underserved market...our nearest mall choices are Norman or Penn Square. The next closest retail center is I-35/19th St in Moore. So 3 choices within about 20 minutes drive time, but nothing close.

[soonerliberal]

Which is why I am eager to see what develops along the I-44 corridor east of the airport. The "Westmoore" area of OKC is an underserved market...our nearest mall choices are Norman or Penn Square. The next closest retail center is I-35/19th St in Moore. So 3 choices within about 20 minutes drive time, but nothing close.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[Spartan]

Which is why I am eager to see what develops along the I-44 corridor east of the airport. The "Westmoore" area of OKC is an underserved market...our nearest mall choices are Norman or Penn Square. The next closest retail center is I-35/19th St in Moore. So 3 choices within about 20 minutes drive time, but nothing close.

Actually, I am anxious to see something more fitting start to serve the Westmoore area. It's time for OKC to move beyond shopping malls and strip malls. The Westmoore area would be better off with something more like Spring Creek in Edmond. What this area of OKC does NOT need is Crossroads Mall. The sooner we move beyond Crossroads and close that mall for good, the better. The two things that need to be pursued are a lifestyle center somewhere in south OKC or revitalizing the inner south side with actual, urban retail. These are the only two things that can really combat the tax slippage to Moore and Norman.

Don't just offer what Moore is offering, offer a shopping area that is unique and better than anything Moore could offer. Why is this concept difficult to understand? What we don't need is to revive Crossroads and bring in more strip malls.

[megax11]

I lived near 104th and Western for around 18 years. Crossroads is not the end all be all for retail. There is plenty of room (both financially and physically) on the southside for more retail. However, there are plenty of other areas on the southside that are proper for greater retail growth.

But I bet you do most of your shopping near or on 19th street in Moore?

I mean what does southside OKC have besides 240 Penn Park? The plaza west of it only has an FYE, Hobby Lobby, and Conns. Otherwise, it is filled with business schools and a hair college.

What's by Crossroads? Best Buy is going to 240 Penn Park (mentioned above), and Toys R Us is the only place there, with the mall dying and the surrounding areas filled with yet more business schools.

So let's see. We got Dollar Tree and Hancock fabrics we can shop at, a plethora of eateries, and carlots. If I want to shop at a mall, I have to go to northside or Quail. If I want to go to the nice theatre, I have to go to Moore. If I want to go to a REAL bookstore, it's northside or Norman. Where does southside factor into anything but the lower bottom of the retail foodchain?

[soonerliberal]

But I bet you do most of your shopping near or on 19th street in Moore?

I mean what does southside OKC have besides 240 Penn Park? The plaza west of it only has an FYE, Hobby Lobby, and Conns. Otherwise, it is filled with business schools and a hair college.

What's by Crossroads? Best Buy is going to 240 Penn Park (mentioned above), and Toys R Us is the only place there, with the mall dying and the surrounding areas filled with yet more business schools.

So let's see. We got Dollar Tree and Hancock fabrics we can shop at, a plethora of eateries, and carlots. If I want to shop at a mall, I have to go to northside or Quail. If I want to go to the nice theatre, I have to go to Moore. If I want to go to a REAL bookstore, it's northside or Norman. Where does southside factor into anything but the lower bottom of the retail foodchain?

I'm not sure where we disagree. I agree that there are a ton of not-so-amazing options in South OKC. I still believe:

Crossroads is not the end all be all for retail. There is plenty of room (both financially and physically) on the southside for more retail. However, there are plenty of other areas on the southside that are proper for greater retail growth.

My point is that retail growth on the southside does NOT have to be near Crossroads. There are a TON of other areas that can be developed in many different ways. I agree with Spartan in that far south OKC needs something that is different than 240 Penn Park or the 19th and I-35 area in Moore. However, those concepts do NOT need to be at Crossroads.

While extremely unlikely, I would love to see a small lifestyle center that is anchored by a Dillards or Macy's along I-44 in SW OKC. However, something more feasible that I also would like to see is a Spring Creek type of place near 119th or 134th and May or Penn. Neither of those types of locations are going to happen in the Crossroads area or along I-240.

[Spartan]

y point is that retail growth on the southside does NOT have to be near Crossroads. There are a TON of other areas that can be developed in many different ways. I agree with Spartan in that far south OKC needs something that is different than 240 Penn Park or the 19th and I-35 area in Moore. However, those concepts do NOT need to be at Crossroads.

While extremely unlikely, I would love to see a small lifestyle center that is anchored by a Dillards or Macy's along I-44 in SW OKC. However, something more feasible that I also would like to see is a Spring Creek type of place near 119th or 134th and May or Penn. Neither of those types of locations are going to happen in the Crossroads area or along I-240.

I just don't understand how anyone could still be clinging to Crossroads, especially the Crossroads location. The reason for south OKC's retail slippage is the urban donut hole effect. Obviously Crossroads was a bad idea because it emptied out all of Capitol Hill's former retail district, which not only led to the decline of that once-great part of the city, but then it made the next logical step for all of the retailers that moved out to Crossroads to just move out further to Moore.

[megax11]

I would love for southside to boom, but as long as those who own Dodson's, Almonte, and other empty plazas filled with bingo halls, do nothing, southside will be nothing when it comes to retail.

Those people who own these plazas probably think all they need to do is make money off the bingo halls, while leaving their plazas looking like crap, which makes southside look like the ghetto.

I wish the city would step in, and tell the people who own these plazas to do something for the sake of growth in the city, and a better look, or they will do whatever it takes to intervene.

[Spartan]

I would love for southside to boom, but as long as those who own Dodson's, Almonte, and other empty plazas filled with bingo halls, do nothing, southside will be nothing when it comes to retail.

Those people who own these plazas probably think all they need to do is make money off the bingo halls, while leaving their plazas looking like crap, which makes southside look like the ghetto.

I wish the city would step in, and tell the people who own these plazas to do something for the sake of growth in the city, and a better look, or they will do whatever it takes to intervene.

Nope, and renovating old bingo halls on I-35 South isn't going to do it either. Where do you live exactly, Valley Brook?

[Thunder]

Spartan, what do you have against the very few BINGO places across the metro?

[ljbab728]

If I want to go to a REAL bookstore, it's northside or Norman.

So I guess that means that you don't consider Half Price Books to be a REAL bookstore. LOL
Would you prefer to have one of the national chains that are going out of business instead of one that is expanding?

[megax11]

Half-Price books doesn't even get new books when they release.

Since when was Barnes and Noble going out of business?

[jn1780]

Since when was Barnes and Noble going out of business?

Barnes and Noble isn't expanding though, their kinda of just holding steady. If they do expand their brick and mortar operations in the future it will be into smaller stores.

[ljbab728]

Half-Price books doesn't even get new books when they release.

Since when was Barnes and Noble going out of business?

Maybe, I missed something. Did I say Barnes and Nobel was going out of business? Are they the ony national book retailer?
Book stores in general are going the way of the video outlets. There will still be some around but it's a fading business.

[ljbab728]

Their not expanding either. If they do expand their brick and mortar operations in the future it will be into smaller stores.

I'm not sure if you're referring to Barnes and Noble or Half Price Books. If you're referring to Half Price Books, that's not quite accurate.

http://www.hpb.com/press/2011/press_...1-17-2011.html
http://www.hpb.com/press/2011/press_...3-01-2011.html

[jn1780]

I'm not sure if you're referring to Barnes and Noble or Half Price Books. If you're referring to Half Price Books, that's not quite accurate.

http://www.hpb.com/press/2011/press_...1-17-2011.html
http://www.hpb.com/press/2011/press_...3-01-2011.html

Sorry, I forgot to quote. I was talking about Barnes and Noble.

[Spartan]

Spartan, what do you have against the very few BINGO places across the metro?

Sorry, what do you mean? I guess they have to go somewhere. Just saying it's not going to translate into competitive economic development for south OKC.