LifeChurchTV

[metro]

I think that can be a lose interpretation on however one wants to take it. I think what he was getting at was to pay tithes but I could be wrong

[Midtowner]

Tithing was an invention of my church (Catholic) in the middle ages.

It's good to give to an organization that does good to others, but IMHO, not mandatory. That idea God needs my money to pay a full time video editor would almost be offensive to me. That's why I go to my place, and y'all go to yours though.

America's good like that.

[osupa05]

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house." Malachi 3:10 So, tithing was around in the old testament (if you believe in the Bible), not an "invention" of the catholic church. God wants, doesn't need, the best we have to give him, but thank goodness for Christ's blood, becuase we'll never be good enough to earn God's love. If you believe that God is the author of everything, then He doesn't need "my" money, becuase it's not really mine.. it's His to begin with. It's mandatory to give back to God, becuase He commands it in the Bible... "you reap what you sow" (my paraphrase of II Cor. 9:6)... but, He loves a cheerful giver... "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." II Cor. 9:7 In other words, He commands us to give, but it's all about the attitude, not the amount (which brings to mind the story of the pharisees who were giving bags and bags of gold, but it was the widow who gave less than a penny (but gave it with the right attitude) that was the example given to us for how give. Nobody could ever outgive God!

[Midtowner]

osupa -- the validity of all of that hinges first on the infaliability of the Bible. That is a doctrine that I do not subscribe to.

Think about it -- does it make any sense at all to worship and call 'holy' a book that was assembled a full 300 years after the events that it described occured? (perspective: That's like me assembling a bunch of books from 1700, only without the advantage of things like libraries, computers, etc.). Further, it was all assembled in such a way as to cause further disconcert -- the final "Canon" was approved by a majority vote and a mere margin of five votes in 325 A.D. at the Council of Trent. You may believe in magic there, but I tend to be skeptical of legislative bodies and compromise -- I tend to be even more skeptical if I'm using the output of those legislative bodies as something to worship.

Do I doubt that there's at least some validity to those documents? Nope. Have I seen numerous comparisons to manuscript, examples of where meanings were changed upon translation? Yes, I have. Pretending that the word of the Bible is inherently true is circular logic (i.e. 'It's true because it says it's true'). As a matter of faith, that's one thing. Arguing as to whether or not it's a sin requires that one believe in the doctrine of inerrancy, and I don't.

Ad arguendo, let's say that I was a believer in the inerrancy of the Bible (just for pretend). Still, there is yet another threshold of faith that I must cross before arriving at the conclusion that the words in Malachi and Leviticus are binding to me as a.. let's call me a Baptist.. pretty sure that would make me one of those inerrant folks..

How about the doctrine that Christ's sacrifice washed away the bonds of the Old Covenant? The 10-percent rule can only be found in the old covenant, and there are passages in the NT to support the view that tithes are no longer required.

Without quoting them as they are too numerous (and they show context which scriptural one-liners never do), you can go here if you think it's important to investigate.

http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html

I find that churches are often under the gun to collect money. They have bankers, they have massive overhead (as Lifechurch certainly does), they have huge expenses. They were also probably brought up under the view that tithing is required without really examining the issue. Do I think it's good to support a ministry if I think that the money will be well spent in helping people? Sure. Do I think it's a sin not to? Nope.

[osupa05]

osupa -- the validity of all of that hinges first on the infaliability of the Bible. That is a doctrine that I do not subscribe to.

Think about it -- does it make any sense at all to worship and call 'holy' a book that was assembled a full 300 years after the events that it described occured? (perspective: That's like me assembling a bunch of books from 1700, only without the advantage of things like libraries, computers, etc.). Further, it was all assembled in such a way as to cause further disconcert -- the final "Canon" was approved by a majority vote and a mere margin of five votes in 325 A.D. at the Council of Trent. You may believe in magic there, but I tend to be skeptical of legislative bodies and compromise -- I tend to be even more skeptical if I'm using the output of those legislative bodies as something to worship.

Do I doubt that there's at least some validity to those documents? Nope. Have I seen numerous comparisons to manuscript, examples of where meanings were changed upon translation? Yes, I have. Pretending that the word of the Bible is inherently true is circular logic (i.e. 'It's true because it says it's true'). As a matter of faith, that's one thing. Arguing as to whether or not it's a sin requires that one believe in the doctrine of inerrancy, and I don't.

Ad arguendo, let's say that I was a believer in the inerrancy of the Bible (just for pretend). Still, there is yet another threshold of faith that I must cross before arriving at the conclusion that the words in Malachi and Leviticus are binding to me as a.. let's call me a Baptist.. pretty sure that would make me one of those inerrant folks..

How about the doctrine that Christ's sacrifice washed away the bonds of the Old Covenant? The 10-percent rule can only be found in the old covenant, and there are passages in the NT to support the view that tithes are no longer required.

Without quoting them as they are too numerous (and they show context which scriptural one-liners never do), you can go here if you think it's important to investigate.

http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html

I find that churches are often under the gun to collect money. They have bankers, they have massive overhead (as Lifechurch certainly does), they have huge expenses. They were also probably brought up under the view that tithing is required without really examining the issue. Do I think it's good to support a ministry if I think that the money will be well spent in helping people? Sure. Do I think it's a sin not to? Nope.

I believe the Bible is the infalliable word of God. If you do not, then we will probably never agree. Sure it will seem silly or not make sense for me to believe what I do to people who don't believe it as well... but Christ didn't call me to be like the world, like everyone else. Call it a blind, child-like faith, but I've been saved by God's amazing grace and there is no denying the power of Christ. That is my faith, and I believe that faith can move mountains! Sure I use "one-liners" if you will, but I believe there are too many people out there who argue religion for the sake of arguing. That was not what I was trying to do. There are certain scriptures of the Bible that will always be argued, whether they are taken along with the whole chapter or taken alone. There are also certain scriptures that can't be argued. And those are the scriptures that lay the foundation for my faith. People (including me) muck up/have mucked up since the beginning of humankind, everything.. so it's no wonder that there thousands of different religions and hundreds of thousands of views on each one. That will never change until Christ comes back!

Yes, I do believe that Christ came to earth to provide a way once for all to be given God's gift of eternal life and that with His death came the tearing of the veil that covered the Ark of the covenant... that the old law was rendered useless, because he was the perfect sacrifice. It doesn't mean that the old law doesn't mean anything, though! I mean we can say that we don't have to give ten percent, but does that mean too, that we can say that we can steal, because it was a part of the old law and now it's gone. It's not a matter of having to follow the law, so much. I believe the law exists to show us still how incapable we are of ever being perfect without Christ. Everyone can argue anything and everything about the law, heck they did that long before there were this many "religions" out there.

Giving is a part of Christianity. As I look at Christ, who gave the ultimate gift, I want to be like Him. That means that I want to give!

I probably should not be the one to try and debate with you.. I am not well versed in the Bible, and I sure don't know religion. I do know that I struggle everyday with right and wrong and with what God's will is, and just learning how to die to myself and my selfish desires and actions. I do know, too, that God's love is more amazing than I will ever be able to comprehend, and that is the only arguement that should ever be "won".

[ibda12u]

Without bringing offense to anyone, we all enjoy spirited debate, but can we return this back to the original topic.


okcgoddess, did you get to attend this past sunday? how did your family enjoy the service?

[Midtowner]

osupa --

I think that we're more-less in agreement then that giving to the church is good. I don't think that you're trying to make the case that the 1/10th thing is Biblically justified. As to the Commandments, they can all be found in the NT:

http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p24a.htm

But I know what you're saying and do not dispute that the Bible, either the NT or OT can be looked upon as a 'guide.' I don't take it to the next step of infalliability though and am fine with agreeing to disagree on that point.

As to some of the more inane things I've heard on this board such as "Do you want to be blessed in net or gross?", I guess I'll be comfortable knowing that I have my view and they have theirs.

***
As to whether this has anything to do with the OP (for the benefit of the immediate preceding poster), it's an interesting discussion to me and I'll continue it as long as people will respond. Request a mod split it out if it bothers you. I find this topic to be very relevant to the subject at hand.

[osupa05]

I don't know about the "net/gross" thing, or where you heard it, but God's blessings abound, has nothing to do with us! And I like being challenged in what I believe, Midtowner, and I'm glad that we have that freedom in America.. to say what we believe!

Yes, okcgoddess, did you get to attend? What are your views?

[ibda12u]

osupa --
As to whether this has anything to do with the OP (for the benefit of the immediate preceding poster), it's an interesting discussion to me and I'll continue it as long as people will respond. Request a mod split it out if it bothers you. I find this topic to be very relevant to the subject at hand.

It's not that it's not an interesting discussion, I was simply pointing out the fact that the OP stated that her family has a strong hunger to get closer to God. She was gathering responses and opinions on whether or not LifeChurch could be a place where her entire family could experience and grow closer to God.

I just figured our intent is to reach out in love to everyone especially people seeking a closer relationship with God. Not divide and create factions to destroy the body of Christ.

[osupa05]

Yes, I agree, and I'm sorry for debating these topics on this post! I would love to see okcgoddess and her family (and everyone everywhere!) become involved in a fellowship where they learn about God! Thanks, ibda!

Midtowner... new thread post... Bible.

[Midtowner]

I think Christians are often too legalistic when it comes to the Bible. They comb over it trying to find hard and fast facts and rules. I think in doing so, they miss the point. The point of Christianity is forgiveness, love, good works, etc. IMHO, all else is peripheral.

If part of what good works are for you involves tithing, do so because you think it's right, not because you're going to be squashed by some holy hand if you don't. Don't do it because you're seeking blessings and return on investment, do it because you want to see your money do something for someone else that'll be bigger than the plasma TV you could have owned instead.

I think we agree on more than you think we agree on

But yes, America and free speach

[Midtowner]

ibda -- dissent doesn't destroy the body of Christ. A good Christian questions what he or she is taught and examines whether it is good for the whole and good for the faith. There is nothing destructive about doing that. There is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. Know the difference.

[ibda12u]

MidTowner - I agree with you to a point, the Berean Christians, took everything they were taught, and searched it out in the scripture. Acts 17:11 to make sure it was exact, of course they believed the scriptures they had were infallible. (my stand also)

Prov 6:19 in talking about things God hates, one of them is he that sow's discord among brethren. This is when someone who has an opinion, and instead of prayerfully finding an answer from God. And resolving the issue, They gather others and and sow that opinion or idea with them. If that opinion or issue is something that can bring dissent, or discord to God's fellowship of believers, then how can it not hurt the body? If I got a different opinion about how these forums should be run, and I got 300-400people to agree with me, and instead of bringing it before the mods, and Todd, I just decide to critize these forums, then create my own, and take 400 people with me.

But I can see what direction you're coming from. I can understand your point on criticism, I would assume you'd agree with me about it's also important on when to use wisdom with out criticism, or as you put it, constructive criticism.

Anyways, I'm sorry I've completely diverted from the OP. I'm open the a new thread to discuss church criticism if you're interested.

[Faith]

Without bringing offense to anyone, we all enjoy spirited debate, but can we return this back to the original topic.


okcgoddess, did you get to attend this past sunday? how did your family enjoy the service?

Unfortunately we were uanble to attend this Sunday. I really wanted to go so bad and my husband agreed to give it a try. However, my 11 month old was sick with a virus he caught at day-care which prevented us from going. We are committed no matter what to go this weekend. We really feel like we need to get closer to God right now. We also really need the help from the church family to help get us through the loss of my mother-in-law this month . We are hoping church can help give us some peace and help our family all together. Hopefully we can set aside all the politics and hypocrits that are involved so we can have the experience we are longing for.

[ibda12u]

I know you don't know me from the next person, but I can understand the loss of a close family member, you have my family's Condolences, and we will pray that God will give you family peace in this situation. I'm certain though that your family will find what it's looking for, because it's not just a church, or christian religion, but you're desiring God.

[osupa05]

Okcgoddess, I'm so sorry about the death in your family! I know that it's tough and there really isn't anything I could say that changes how hard it is to go through losing someone in your family.

Just to let you know, you can view the first two messages in the current series online at lifechurch.tv. The series is entitled "Goin' all the way". You wouldn't be out of the loop if you didn't view them, but they will give you a good feel (there are also other messages on there) for how Craig preaches! I hope your little one is feeling better!

[Jack]

I'm not a big fan of the direction these churches are going. They seem less religious and more 'self help'. I also have my differences with their theology.

I've met Craig Groeschel (the pastor), and he's a pretty nice guy. Has a degree in finance...

I'm also not a huge fan of how they have been 'franchising', but as a Catholic, I don't know if I have room to talk there

The way I see it they allow the Holy Spirit room to work, apart from the structured, man made steps followed in the Catholic church.

[Jack]

So Keith, I guess that confirms that you feel okay with this "consumer religion" that is becoming popular? It seems that religion is now marketing -- e.g. targetting audiences, cultivating audiences, etc. just the same as IBM or someone like that would do.

To me, that whole concept is a little foreign... of course, we still chant in latin at my church

Jesus didn't just stick around with religious people. No, he went an dwelled among the lost people. The only way he could do that was come down to Earth as a poor man, not as a rich king, as the Pharisees had expected. Life Church is only following the way of Jesus, trying to become more like a certain group of people in order to reach them better.

[Jack]

Unfortunately, too many preaching the "prosperity" gospel are living lives of wealth and splendor, and using their churches as entrepreneural vehicles. And, there is no denying that they are mostly found in the non-denominational entertainment churches. That's also not found in the church in Acts.

I do agree with you there. Folks like Benny Hinn and other evangelists that are making big bucks, are not following God's plan. But, there are lost sheep even among the leaders in some churches.

[Jack]

Tithing was an invention of my church (Catholic) in the middle ages.

It's good to give to an organization that does good to others, but IMHO, not mandatory. That idea God needs my money to pay a full time video editor would almost be offensive to me. That's why I go to my place, and y'all go to yours though.

America's good like that.

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

[sweetdaisy]

Unfortunately we were uanble to attend this Sunday. I really wanted to go so bad and my husband agreed to give it a try. However, my 11 month old was sick with a virus he caught at day-care which prevented us from going. We are committed no matter what to go this weekend. We really feel like we need to get closer to God right now. We also really need the help from the church family to help get us through the loss of my mother-in-law this month . We are hoping church can help give us some peace and help our family all together. Hopefully we can set aside all the politics and hypocrits that are involved so we can have the experience we are longing for.

okcgoddess, just to let you know about the upcoming message this weekend. As osupa indicated, the series is called "going all the way" in relation to better, truer relationships with your S/O. However, it is recommend that this coming Sunday (1/29), children below the 5th grade level should go to "LifeKids" (is that the name of it, osupa?) I believe this Sunday's topic will be addressing Sex and obviously, that's for parents to decide, but okcgoddess, I'd hate for you to go in without knowing.

[sweetdaisy]

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

Who is paying a guy to light candles and carry a cross?

[Midtowner]

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

Some Catholic Churches actually do pay their musicians salaries. I know of one in the metro that does that. However, there are still quite a few "full stewardship" parishes. In these churches, the only salaries go to the clergy (and they are paid very small salaries).

Your ignorance aside, the comparison doesn't even come close to passing muster. If you can find me one other church that has charity spending anywhere remotely close (and we can even talk per capita) to the Catholic church, I'll be extremely surprised.

I expect that you'll have no such luck.

I didn't intend for this to be a Catholic vs. Lifechurch discussion, but I guess you want to make it that. Very well.. state some facts upon which you want to base an argument.

Or you can just continue to spew ignorance.. suits me either way.

[sweetdaisy]

Midtowner, Jack will not be able to spew anything BUT ignorance and everyone here knows it. Instead, he chooses to make parochial comments that have no basis or meaning and are simply his opportunity to be a JACK...

As a Catholic, I can completely understand your point of view regarding these "new" churches. It has been challenging for me to go to a more contemporary service, given my traditional church background. However, I have noticed it's very enjoyable to see how involved people become in a contemporary worship service. It's a touching celebration of God, the likes of which I haven't experienced in Catholic service except at maybe Christmas or Easter.

[osupa05]

Thanks SwtDsy for reminding me and Okcgoddess about kids attending next week's service! I completely forgot!