Streetcar

[Larry OKC]

but OKC only has 1 taxi company (according to earlier Council meetings). Latest one said we have 3(?). And there aren't enough taxi stands for those so they have to park in a metered space!

[Urban Pioneer]

The trip to Dallas went great on Friday. The Kinkisharyo modern streetcar is pretty amazing. The prototype we "ran around on" just went 8 miles on batteries while being demonstrated to the delegation in Charlotte. It is essentially made of spare parts left over from the Seattle Light Rail System just completed paired with Lithium Ion Batteries such as the Telsa sports car runs on.

Notice in the pic that the pantograph is not raised. We were in the Dallas Light Rail System maintenance yard.

It's already Thunder colors!

[Urban Pioneer]

Streetcar Interior shots

[Spartan]

I would honestly go with a tram model that has more seating, especially if we're wanting people to take further rides. The standing capacity is practical for short rides and for peak times, but we want to offer as much comfort as possible, I think.

[Larry OKC]

Just guessing here but I would imagine the "open" floor plan is intended not only for multi-purpose (standing/sitting) maimum capacity but also for ease of use for those in wheelchairs and the like???

Looks very similar to the Vegas Monorail or even the Vegas Airport trams. Granted those are generally short rides...

[Spartan]

Well one very common tram car arrangement is to have rows of two seats on one side, and then to leave it open on the other side.

edit: Nevermind, did more searching on the Kinkisharyo and evidently is has different layouts on each attached car.

[Urban Pioneer]

Yes, seating configurations are kinda a minor thing right now. It's the propulsion system of bigger concern. Nearly any manufacturer will layout the cars any way that we want with as many seats or doors we want to fit in.

[Kerry]

I like the idea of smaller trams. The initial system is not going to be very long so no ride should be over 15 minutes. As demand increases larger cars can be purchased and the small cars moved to either running a more frequent downtown service or used to expand the service into new areas. One of the problems with the bus service is over capacity in exchange for frequent serive. I would rather see 3 small trams vs 2 large trams.

[Urban Pioneer]

I like the idea of smaller trams. The initial system is not going to be very long so no ride should be over 15 minutes. As demand increases larger cars can be purchased and the small cars moved to either running a more frequent downtown service or used to expand the service into new areas. One of the problems with the bus service is over capacity in exchange for frequent serive. I would rather see 3 small trams vs 2 large trams.

More than likely, we will be purchasing 4-6 smaller units. Most of the units by companies can be expanded to be longer as well although the stop design platform length would be a factor.

I really don't want to get into a discussion of semantics regarding numbers of units. It depends on the over all length of the system, maintaining 8-12 minute interval's, and if all/some of the traffic signals are prioritized for the streetcar. But based on other systems and cars in reserve for maintenance trade-out, special events, my guess is right now were looking at 4-6 units.

[Spartan]

So the point about this manufacturer is that the cars can run on batteries and not be reliant on the overhead electricity source, which some people may be politically hostile to (don't want those darn wires in front of their property).

I would be curious to see what the public expense would be so that some people don't have wires in the street in front of their property.

[Kerry]

I don't think you will see a system where the cables come and go all over town. The goal of the batteries is to get the streetcar past areas where cable cannot be placed. They can't run all day on batteries and those batteries have to be recharged. I am not sure there is enough current in the wire to power the train AND recharge the batteries. Plus 5 minutes of charging followed by a minute of battery power back to charging will make for a short lifespan.

[Urban Pioneer]

So the point about this manufacturer is that the cars can run on batteries and not be reliant on the overhead electricity source, which some people may be politically hostile to (don't want those darn wires in front of their property).

I would be curious to see what the public expense would be so that some people don't have wires in the street in front of their property.

Yes and no. I would agree with those who would prefer not to have a wire of any kind in front of the Memorial Gates. But we also have the bridge clearance issue which may be eliminated on Sheridan and Reno by a "wireless" technology if those streets are selected for streetcar. A complete reconstruction which might be necessary would require possibly up to $12 million per bridge.

The rest is purely a matter of political and aesthetic opinion. Devon doesn't want the wire near their complex and there are people who do not want to see it along Auto Alley.

Regarding costs, the Kinkisharyo people claim that your spending more on the car unit itself but saving significantly more by not having to put in power infrastructure of any ind with the exception of the catenary in the "charging" zones. I have a book from them on estimated cost savings that I have not had a chance to sit down and read yet.

[Urban Pioneer]

1. I don't think you will see a system where the cables come and go all over town.

We don't know yet.


2. The goal of the batteries is to get the streetcar past areas where cable cannot be placed.

Yes and no. The overhead wire "visual political issue" comes up in nearly every city that does not already have a streetcar. We are not an exception and since there is market demand to have an answer to it, this the Kinkisharyo. I talked to the VP specifically about it.

There is a case in Washington DC however where wires are specifically prohibited on the Washington Mall in which there is a direct demand for the technology that they are pursuing.

But yes, you comment is right on that the batteries could theoretically help "stretch" streetcar mileage into a further areas at a lower cost by not having the powering infrastructure.


3. They can't run all day on batteries and those batteries have to be recharged.

Yes, that is correct. Enough of the system will still have to operate on overhead to recharge the batteries. So in our scenario for example, perhaps 2 miles without wire, 4 miles on assuming 6 miles of track? Just a estimate.


4. I am not sure there is enough current in the wire to power the train AND recharge the batteries.

There is. 750v power supply seemed to be fine for doing it. Just sitting there, we powered back up in about 10 minutes. They claim that being "online" for 10 - 12 minutes fully recharges the battery.


5. Plus 5 minutes of charging followed by a minute of battery power back to charging will make for a short lifespan.

Maybe, I have fears about this too but apparently hybrid cars such as the Prius and other such cars have overcome such "memory" related problems intrinsic with earlier batteries. These are lithium ION. Kinkisharyo claims that they come with a 12 year life expectancy and then are sent back to the manufacturer for recycling.

[betts]

I like the idea of a wire on Automobile Alley, from a visual standpoint. I think it gives it more of an urban look, personally. Obviously aesthetics are only one consideration, but it wouldn't bother me in the least to use a wire on most of the route except for the southern east-west portion. I can understand not wanting catenary in front of the Memorial best.

[Urban Pioneer]

I like the idea of a wire on Automobile Alley, from a visual standpoint. I think it gives it more of an urban look, personally.

Another thing that people also fail to realize or acknowledge, is because we are going to be engineering a "couplet" type design, the wire is only on side of the street secured by guide arms off of the light poles on that side of the street. A "double-track" configuration would in theory have more "visual pollution" as there would probably be guidelines running across the entire width of the street to help secure both wires.

Personally, I think a single wire with single guide arms is innocuous. But, there has been enough concerns raised by enough people that we are trying to do our job as a committee and represent the citizens as best we can by vetting all of the available technologies that appear to fit within the $120 million budget.

[Kerry]

Thanks for the update UP. Fully charging the batteries in 10 to 12 minutes is pretty good. It takes a couple of hours to charge my cell phone.

[Spartan]

Another thing that people also fail to realize or acknowledge, is because we are going to be engineering a "couplet" type design, the wire is only on side of the street secured by guide arms off of the light poles on that side of the street. A "double-track" configuration would in theory have more "visual pollution" as there would probably be guidelines running across the entire width of the street to help secure both wires.

Personally, I think a single wire with single guide arms is innocuous. But, there has been enough concerns raised by enough people that we are trying to do our job as a committee and represent the citizens as best we can by vetting all of the available technologies that appear to fit within the $120 million budget.

That's what I was getting to, is the idea by a few certain downtown property owners that want to reap the benefits of being downtown and being on the route, but don't want the wires in front of their property. They want to be catered to at potentially enormous expense. I however can totally understand preserving wire clutter around the Memorial. But that is, so far, the only exception that I think we should make. Until there is an actual cost figure for what it will cost so that (not to name name's) doesn't have catenary "visually cluttering" their street-frontage, I would be highly un-inclined to want to see such favors done. There is a route, there are buildings everywhere along the route, and that is that. The streetcar will be a huge positive that it is absolutely insane to think of opposing it because of WIRES. These kinds of people can not be reasoned with.

Maybe we could win them over with cute little smiley face graphics covering all of the cars? Or martini glass depictions?

It also seems like if the only wire-free zones should be the Memorial and under the bridges, that the Kinkisharyo isn't needed. A cheaper model could be explored. It would seem like most tram car models would be capable of using batteries to run for one block already.

[Kerry]

Spartan - you are right on - no favors. Besides, it is one tiny little wire and unless you are looking for it, it is hard to find. Also, downtown could use a little visual clutter. We don't need to go Mumbai but it shouldn't be a steril operating room either.

[betts]

I like the idea of the streetcar being wireless if we use Sheridan. In some ways, with the exception of the Memorial, I think we should have a single street either be all wired or all wireless. The Myriad Gardens and Devon are new and new looking. Although they're clearly urban, it's a different feel than Robinson and Broadway and I think it might be cool to be wireless there. If we use Reno, I'd be more pro-wire and I definitely think the Boulevard would probably benefit from a little visual clutter. Also, although I didn't ask the engineer about this, it might be that the battery would be great to have in the event of a power outage or interruption. It's a simple technology very similar to hybrid cars, and I think there might be unforseen benefits. In addition, the cars are metal as opposed to fiberglass, which is a simpler repair in the event of a "fender bender". There would be some savings from being catenary free in areas too, although I don't know how it would compare with the cost of the cars.

[Urban Pioneer]

They want to be catered to at potentially enormous expense.

I understand your sentiment, however there is not a definitive indication that such technology will be an enormous expense. It looks like electromagnetic will have a modest premium on it, but the battery based cars seemingly cost less.

While the individual hybrid cars apparently cost more, the removal of the powering infrastructure eliminates or might actually save a premium. It all depends on the final design and so forth.

[Urban Pioneer]

Also, although I didn't ask the engineer about this, it might be that the battery would be great to have in the event of a power outage or interruption. It's a simple technology very similar to hybrid cars, and I think there might be unforeseen benefits.

This is true. Redundancy may be of benefited via a "back-up" power supply for the occasional power outage.

[Spartan]

This is just somewhere that it is important to see a cost comparison before making a proper decision. I would put a 30% premium on the wireless technology...any more, it would be difficult to justify.

[betts]

The biggest problem that I can see is that none of these cars are precisely alike. Regardless, we'll be comparing apples to oranges. How much is totally low floor worth? How much are metal vs. fiberglass cars worth? How much will it really cost to add catenary vs. battery costs and will those costs change from street to street? It's going to be a little like comparing a VW with a Buick Skylark with a Prius. Although the prices won't be identical, neither will the cars. There may be benefits to some and disadvantages to others, and those benefits and disadvantages may be present within the same car. None of us will be making the ultimate decision, regardless, but it's interesting to speculate.

[Spartan]

But at some point there must be figures that illustrate that the fiberglass is this much more expensive, or that catenary-free is this much more expensive, and so on..

[Urban Pioneer]

Here are some photograph's from my impromptu "walk through" of Santa Fe Station today with Jill Alder of MAPS Transit and Marion Hutchison of the Hub Committee.



Glass Entrance Area facing West



Decorative Art Deco ceiling restored in 1999



Sealed pedestrian tunnel originally going to other platform stairwells that could theoretically be enlarged to penetrate into Bricktown above the canal.