Bold ideas for preserving, yet repurposing Cox Center

[BoulderSooner]

If a new arena is built in the next 15 years it is going to be a basketball only facility which will have a much smaller footprint than the Ford Center. We won't need 2 NHL size arenas. It can go along the river with the soccer-specific stadium.

what are you talking about .. our next "new" arena will most likey have a larger footprint that the OKC arena .. concources will be big with more seats and high dollar seats .. with extra bars and food service areas .. in will be multi purpose and be huge

[Kerry]

what are you talking about .. our next "new" arena will most likey have a larger footprint that the OKC arena .. concources will be big with more seats and high dollar seats .. with extra bars and food service areas .. in will be multi purpose and be huge

I don't think so. I think it will be a pupose-built stadium for basketball. No single MAPS style project is going to cost north of $400 million. That is a $100 million more than the entire convention center is supposed to cost and 3X more than the streetcar.

[BoulderSooner]

I don't think so. I think it will be a pupose-built stadium for basketball. No single MAPS style project is going to cost north of $400 million. That is a $100 million more than the entire convention center is supposed to cost and 3X more than the streetcar.

i agree it will be a multi use building built for basketball .... that makes it the same size or larger than the okc arena

[Patrick]

Let's compare to our neighbor to the south...Dallas' Reunion Arena built in 1980, demo'd in 2008. Cox Convention Center (nee The Incomparable Myriad) built in 1972, still operating.

If Dallas didn't see a need to keep a 2nd large arena open, how are we justifying keeping our older and smaller one??

Well, there are some advantages to it being smaller. It's a great venue for minor league hockey, which doesn't need a larger facility like the OKC Arena.

[ljbab728]

If a new arena is built in the next 15 years it is going to be a basketball only facility which will have a much smaller footprint than the Ford Center. We won't need 2 NHL size arenas. It can go along the river with the soccer-specific stadium.

Wrong, Kerry. The NBA would not accept a smaller footprint. That was the main problem in Seattle if you remember. A new arena next to the river is very unlikely.

[Larry OKC]

I don't think so. I think it will be a pupose-built stadium for basketball. No single MAPS style project is going to cost north of $400 million. That is a $100 million more than the entire convention center is supposed to cost and 3X more than the streetcar.

Notice how MAPS projects got significantly more expensive from MAPS 1 to MAPS 3? The most expensive public project to date was the MAPS Arena (just under $90M). As sold to the voters, all 9 of the original MAPS projects were supposed to have cost less ($238M) than just Phase 1 of the MAPS 3 Convention Center. With MAPS 3, we have 3 projects that have far exceeded the $90M ceiling:
$130M Park
$120M Streetcars
$250-$280M Convention Center (actual cost exceeds $400M, see below)

The convention center is $400M (if it was all built today). But they decided to break it up into Phase 1 (MAPS 3, $250-$280M) and Phase 2 to be funded at a later date. The $400M doesn't take into account the unfunded Convention Center hotel which is probably in the $100M area).

Bennett was demanding a $500M (mol) new arena in Seattle (some reports had it as little as $250M). He stated his idea was modeled after the Denver Arena (which only had 3% public financing). He wanted it to host the NBA & NHL (with him owning both). While bigger than the Key, it would have had slightly less seating than the Ford. Am sure Betts can come up with more recent figures for other NBA arenas.

Hard to say how much more expensive things are going to be 8 years or so when we are talking about MAPS 4 projects.

[bombermwc]

Kerry - you're totally wrong on that one. In case you missed it, the Ford Center has INCREASED it's footprint since it was built. And if you look at other arenas being built these days, they are on the LARGER side. Ford Center is one of the smaller houses. Now the next arena may not take up as much land as the plot the Myriad is on, but it will be bigger than Ford Center's. Heck, they had to rotate Ford Center so they could even squeeze it in the land they bought....and it barely fit there because of I-40....oh wait, when I-40 is gone they are expanding out....hmm.

And arenas are by nature, multipurpose. That's why Lloyd Noble at OU is built the way it is versus Gallagher-Iba. You don't anything other than basketball in Gallagher, but you see alllll kinds of stuff in Noble. So why would we want to shoot ourselves in the foot like that? When the next arena is built and Ford Center takes the 2nd class spot, you'll see things like the Barons move in. That requires a larger floor space than basketball. So do concerts and basically anything besides basketball. Not to mention the fact that if you have a larger floor space, you get all that extra space at the ends for seating.

And go look at the places that use stinking football stadiums for their basketball arenas....come on....hello, Alamo Dome.

[Patrick]

Notice how MAPS projects got significantly more expensive from MAPS 1 to MAPS 3? The most expensive public project to date was the MAPS Arena (just under $90M). As sold to the voters, all 9 of the original MAPS projects were supposed to have cost less ($238M) than just Phase 1 of the MAPS 3 Convention Center. With MAPS 3, we have 3 projects that have far exceeded the $90M ceiling:
$130M Park
$120M Streetcars
$250-$280M Convention Center (actual cost exceeds $400M, see below)

The convention center is $400M (if it was all built today). But they decided to break it up into Phase 1 (MAPS 3, $250-$280M) and Phase 2 to be funded at a later date. The $400M doesn't take into account the unfunded Convention Center hotel which is probably in the $100M area).

Hard to say how much more expensive things are going to be 8 years or so when we are talking about MAPS 4 projects.

Well, you have to remember, the MAPS 1 projects were paid for in the 90's. That's 10-15 years ago. Think of how much prices have gone up on everything since then. The price of gasoline in the late 90's was close to or under a dollar. It's now over 3 dollars. Postage stamps in 1998 when the ballpark was completed were 32 cents. They're now 44 cents. The average car in the late 1990's was around $12,000. You'll pay $20,000 for that same car today. So, it just isn't MAPS. Everything has gone up in price.

[Kerry]

Wrong, Kerry. The NBA would not accept a smaller footprint. That was the main problem in Seattle if you remember. A new arena next to the river is very unlikely.

The square footage of Key Arean had nothing to do with why the Sonics left Seattle - nothing. It had to do with the City of Seattle breaching their contract with the Sonics that required them to provide an economically viable arean. Key Arena only had a handful of luxury suites while the City of Seattle paid for 2 new stadiums (baseball and football) that had hundreds of luxury suites.

Anyhow, we are arguing about something that won't even come to pass for another 15 years - at the earliest, and my money says there won't be a MAPS IV anyhow so if you think a new arena is going to be built with 800,000 sq feet then so be it, we'll know in 2026.

[Patrick]

Well, although I do agree with what you're saying bomber, I will point out that the Spurs don't play in the Alamo Dome anymore, because they considered it too large for basketball, so they built the smaller AT&T Center where the Spurs now play.

[Larry OKC]

Well, you have to remember, the MAPS 1 projects were paid for in the 90's. That's 10-15 years ago. Think of how much prices have gone up on everything since then. The price of gasoline in the late 90's was close to or under a dollar. It's now over 3 dollars. Postage stamps in 1998 when the ballpark was completed were 32 cents. They're now 44 cents. The average car in the late 1990's was around $12,000. You'll pay $20,000 for that same car today. So, it just isn't MAPS. Everything has gone up in price.

i agree and that was part of my point, to suggest as Kerry did, that a new arena won't cost as much isn't looking at the history of the price increases. Granted the time frame between MAPS & MAPS 3 passage was about 16 years and the time frame between MAPS 3 & 4 will be half of that, or 8 years. So doing the quick-n-dirty math and extrapolating it out, not hard at all to see a new MAPS 4 Arena easily being significantly higher than what we are talking about now.

[ljbab728]

The square footage of Key Arean had nothing to do with why the Sonics left Seattle - nothing. It had to do with the City of Seattle breaching their contract with the Sonics that required them to provide an economically viable arean. Key Arena only had a handful of luxury suites while the City of Seattle paid for 2 new stadiums (baseball and football) that had hundreds of luxury suites.

Wrong again, Kerry

http://theworldlink.com/sports/artic...47eebccfd.html

Please read the fourth and fifth paragraphs.

It certainly was not the only reason the Sonics left for OKC but to say it had nothing to do with it is absolutely incorrect.

[Larry OKC]

Kerry - you're totally wrong on that one. In case you missed it, the Ford Center has INCREASED it's footprint since it was built. And if you look at other arenas being built these days, they are on the LARGER side. Ford Center is one of the smaller houses. Now the next arena may not take up as much land as the plot the Myriad is on, but it will be bigger than Ford Center's. Heck, they had to rotate Ford Center so they could even squeeze it in the land they bought....and it barely fit there because of I-40....oh wait, when I-40 is gone they are expanding out....hmm.

...

This is part of the dichotomy. It is true that the sf of the Arena and its footprint are being made larger (leading to the claim that after the renovations, the Arena will be one of the largest NBA arenas). Yet we took out nearly 1,000 seats (960), dropping the Ford from #14 all the way down to #28 (in seating capacity).

Sort of along the lines that OKC is one of the largest cities in the country (by land area), but not so much when population & density are taken into account.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the "expansion" of the Arena has nothing to do with the relocating of I-40 (it isn't expanding across the roadway is it). The Boulevard is taking the Crosstown's place? One of the reasons Bennett gave for the Practice Facility NOT being located at the Arena was there wasn't enough space available (by the time they added the NBA office space and the new South entrance). If the building was expanding etc from the relocation, that wouldn't be an issue, would it? Plus isn't the MAPS 3 Park in the way?

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=Larry OKC;427360]Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the "expansion" of the Arena has nothing to do with the relocating of I-40 (it isn't expanding across the roadway is it). The Boulevard is taking the Crosstown's place? /QUOTE]

You're correct, Larry. The ground work for the expansion on the south side of the arena has already started. It should be completed before the current I-40 is relocated and will not use any of that space.

[bombermwc]

Yes, but they had to make room for it with the Robinson exit. My point was that I-40, like in so many cases, served as a barrier in preventing the original plan from being "square" and limited the footprint options at the site. When that entrance is done, and you can reach out your car window and touch the wall of the arena, then tell me it wasn't an issue to have to deal with.

I understand the Alamo Dome isn't the Spurs' home now, but it was for quite a long time in terms of arenas. Obviously football stadiums aren't ideal (i hate it when people mix football/baseball too). But the point I was making was that arenas aren't always little fellers. Look at the new arena for the Nets! Holy crap! It's a whole economic district.

[Patrick]

i agree and that was part of my point, to suggest as Kerry did, that a new arena won't cost as much isn't looking at the history of the price increases. Granted the time frame between MAPS & MAPS 3 passage was about 16 years and the time frame between MAPS 3 & 4 will be half of that, or 8 years. So doing the quick-n-dirty math and extrapolating it out, not hard at all to see a new MAPS 4 Arena easily being significantly higher than what we are talking about now.

Thinking 8-10 years down the line, I can completely see a new state of the art NBA arena costing upwards of $400-500 million. Some may say, "well, the Ford Center only cost $90 million". Well, that's true, but that was in a different time when prices were lower, it was way under-bid by the contractor, and it was built bare bones. Seeing all of the improvements that we've made and are making to our bare-bones arena, the final price of the Ford Center/OKC Arena is more like $200-300 million, and that's for just about an average NBA arena, not bad, but definitely not the most elite in the nation by any stretch of the imagination.

[Midtowner]

We ought to retitle these "bold ideas..." threads to "crackpot ideas."

--we ought to just follow the Sandridge example and build a much-needed plaza in the space.