Streetcar

[Kerry]

Being as I work for "The Man", I am always part of the conspiracy.

I couldn't resist.

[Kerry]

Cafe, you are bringing facts into a discussion. You are now condemned to be part of "the conspiracy."
BTW: Cafe is right. It was received. That's it. It doesn't imply an endorsement or approval of the routes by the city council.
#30#

So there is hope this route will still be changed.

[mcca7596]

So there is hope this route will still be changed.

I know you are against couplets, but what alternative ROUTE would you want as opposed to something that includes Robinson, Broadway, and the Midtown loop?

[betts]

If the route is changed, it will most likely be because we find a Viking amphitheatre buried under one of the streets and cannot proceed. Or something like that. It will be for engineering reasons. That's actually most likely to happen with the entrance into Bricktown, because of railroad bridges. It's hard to think of other potential impediments, but I suppose there could be something.

[Kerry]

I know you are against couplets, but what alternative ROUTE would you want as opposed to something that includes Robinson, Broadway, and the Midtown loop?

This system uses 6 miles of total track but I have made some improvments to it that shaves some distance off. I could probably get it to 5 miles if I had to.



Here is video for my Red Line



My plan serves more people with better service than the couplets, which is why every city in the world uses double track except Portland which has one way streets.



Double Track: Dark green is areas within one block of two way service. Light green is area within 2 block of two-way service





Couplet: Dark green is area within one block of two-way service. Light green is area with two blocks of two-way service.



You have to base the distance people are willing to walk on two-way service because people make round trips. Imagine if you bought a roundtrip airfare from OKC to Chicago but the return trip dropped you off in Tulsa.

[BoulderSooner]

a couple of things .. st anthony doesn't want street car on 10th ... you need center of the street right of way the entire distance .. where are there passing tracks for the multi cars ..

[Urban Pioneer]

Cafe, you are bringing facts into a discussion. You are now condemned to be part of "the conspiracy."

Oh come on. The "conspiracy" has worked very well for us. lol

[Urban Pioneer]

So there is hope this route will still be changed.

By who and to what? Our committee is pretty unified on what we recommend. A change is extremely doubtful.

[Kerry]

a couple of things .. st anthony doesn't want street car on 10th ... you need center of the street right of way the entire distance .. where are there passing tracks for the multi cars ..

When did St Anthony's say they didn't want the streetcar? However, if they are opposed to it and the city is willing to acquiesce, then that spur just doesn't get built and we save $12 million or we add the 1/4 mile somewhere else. As for passing track - all my routes are double track (travel in both directions simultaneously). There is no need for passing tracks.



If I take out the Black Line (Spartan will like that) and the St. Anthony's spur I can put a line down Walker connecting the Plaza District to Bricktown and it only adds about 1,000 net feet to the eqation. That gives us north/south on Walker and Robinson/Broadway and I still have track left over.

[Urban Pioneer]

When did St Anthony's say they didn't want the streetcar? However, if they are opposed to it and the city is willing to acquiesce, then that spur just doesn't get built and we save $12 million or we add the 1/4 mile somewhere else.

They never said they didn't want it. They said that they prefer for it to be on 11th. The stop location would be at 11th and Dewey. I spoke to Joe Hodges myself several times about what they prefer. And no one from St. Anthony's or the Midtown Association has expressed that they wanted it to go through the circles or traverse 10th.

[Kerry]

I know you have done a lot of work UP but have they (St Anthony's and Mistown Associates) seen how many places have streetcars going through traffic circles and how easy it is? Did they say why they prefered 11th and not 10th?

[Urban Pioneer]

I know you have done a lot of work UP but have they (St Anthony's and Mistown Associates) seen how many places have streetcars going through traffic circles and how easy it is? Did they say why they prefered 11th and not 10th?

It's real simple, they don't want circles like that. They like the landscaping. They don't want 10th street under construction again and their businesses shuttered. They don't want added congestion to those intersections. They don't want traffic signals added to stop traffic as a train approaches the circle. St. Anthony's/city just installed a sculpture in the middle of the 10th and Shartel circle.

They like the idea of the streetcar directly interfacing with the restaurants on Walker. Many of them like the idea of the streetcar skirting Heritage Hills and think 10th street is too far away for the collector/distributor.

12th street was deemed too narrow by many of them.

This was derived from conversations and discussions with dozens of people in the Midtown area, particularly the folks at St. Anthony's. Even key people in the planning department think that 11th is better than 10th.

[Spartan]

So there is hope this route will still be changed.

Viva la Jane Jenkins!!!

[shane453]

Kerry, your basement transportation planning from a thousand miles away is starting to sound like an irrelevant broken record... Just saying, it's hard to argue with a committee of people who are on the ground, talking to real people, businesses, institutions, and officials in actual real-life OKC.

[Kerry]

Kerry, your basement transportation planning from a thousand miles away is starting to sound like an irrelevant broken record... Just saying, it's hard to argue with a committee of people who are on the ground, talking to real people, businesses, institutions, and officials in actual real-life OKC.

Maybe being removed from the 'day to day' allows me to see things more clearly, or not. I'm just offereing my opinion based on how I see it working in cities around the world from 100 years old systems to brand new system. The City is building the foundation for City wide transit system, if they are happy letting one or two landscaped traffic circles dictate the route then that is up to them. Personally, I think it should go where it needs to go based on traffic patterns and employment centers. If that means some guy that might not even be working for St. Anthony's in 5 years doesn't like it, then so be it. We are laying the foundation for a system that will drive transit in OKC for the next 100 years. When this system eventually stops at the front door of a hospital in the medical district, St Anthony's will be kicking themselves. Construction on the section in front of St. Anthony would take about 45 days and the road would stay open the whole time.

[plmccordj]

I read articles regularly about how people want to spend millions of dollars to build some joke of a rail system in down town all the while you cannot get a dependable bus from ANYWHERE to ANYWHERE in this town. I’ve seen cities that were half the size of Oklahoma City that have twice the bus system that we do. Our Mayor did this year long poll online to find out what people wanted to spend money on with MAPS3 and overwhelmingly people voted for public transportation. What did he do? He gave this long speech about how they heard us loud and clear and have decided to honor the wishes of the people and build this ridiculous train downtown at a ridiculous price of millions of dollars. Others will say “This lovely rail system will cover five miles!” Five miles? Five curved miles that covers about two square miles in a city of more than 600 square miles not counting suburbs. That is a complete waste of money. I like the idea of having a rail system “also” but this too will be an overpriced joke just like the bus system. How many people will be able to dependably rely on this train to get them around other than just for the uniqueness of appearance? Very few… Less than one percent of the population of our city.

These are the same people that claim we cannot afford a decent bus system. This train will only benefit a few people downtown and will neglect the rest of the city. Oklahoma City leadership has deliberately ignored our need for a real bus system in a calculated way. They have a system called Metro Transit that use to be called a half dozen other names that has minimum routes with minimum coverage. They do not run very often and leave miles of the city with no routes at all. We have Tinker AFB with 23,000 employees with zero bus service. This embarrassing train downtown will cost more money that a decent bus system that would cover the entire city.

It just pisses me off that I have to take off work in the morning and in the afternoon to take my son to work every day when you cannot depend on this joke of a bus system. I’m sorry if some of you love this stupid train but we have more important things that a train that covers two square miles of territory. I always hear people say why spend the money on a bus system that no one rides? That is a completely ignorant statement. The reason no one rides the bus is because they cannot be depended upon. If you happened to be one of the lucky two people that actually live on one of these fictitious routes you only get four or five pickups a day. If you miss the bus you could be waiting for hours for the next one. This does not even account for the miles of territory with no service at all. Here in Midwest City there is one bus route in the whole city and it is route 15. This route gets on the freeway and goes downtown. What the…? What if someone wants to get off the bus somewhere between Midwest City and downtown? I guess you could jump off the bus at 60 MPH and hope that you survive.

Those in charge purposefully designed an inadequate joke of a bus system that people cannot depend on and then they point out that no one rides them. Of course they are not going to ride it when they must be at work and they cannot depend on this bus system. This is not an innocent misunderstanding but rather a calculated decision to fabricate a lack of ridership so they can quote this as evidence not to invest in a bus system. You may be asking why have a bus system at all if they are not going to do it right? This is obviously an attempt to appease environmentalists. They do not want to be seen as not doing anything to prevent air pollution so they put together this skeleton bus system just to shut people up. As a very conservative person I am surprised at the lack of an outcry by the liberals that occupy OKCTalk.com. I normally do not advocate government spending on things so this is big for me.

I really do not understand the lack of pressure put on the city leaders. I do like Mick Cornett but I think he just like his predecessors has missed the mark AGAIN.

[Kerry]

I’ve seen cities that were half the size of Oklahoma City that have twice the bus system that we do.

There in lies the problem plmccordj. OKC is too big to try to provide bus service to all of it. That is why myself and others are advocated an urban transit zone. If you want access to mass transit you have to live within the zone. If you want to live in a subdivision 8 or 9 miles from downtown - you have to own a car. I would rather serve fewer people really well than a lot people poorly. My urban transit zone is everything between I-35/I-44/I-240.

[mcca7596]

There in lies the problem plmccordj. OKC is too big to try to provide bus service to all of it. That is why myself and others are advocated an urban transit zone. If you want access to mass transit you have to live within the zone. If you want to live in a subdivision 8 or 9 miles from downtown - you have to own a car. I would rather serve fewer people really well than a lot people poorly. My urban transit zone is everything between I-35/I-44/I-240.

This.

[NWOKCGuy]

Here in Midwest City there is one bus route in the whole city and it is route 15.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does MWC have to do with the street car? Are MWC residents paying for it?

[ZYX2]

There in lies the problem plmccordj. OKC is too big to try to provide bus service to all of it. That is why myself and others are advocated an urban transit zone. If you want access to mass transit you have to live within the zone. If you want to live in a subdivision 8 or 9 miles from downtown - you have to own a car. I would rather serve fewer people really well than a lot people poorly. My urban transit zone is everything between I-35/I-44/I-240.

Completely agree. We need to focus the money there is for mass transit on a certain area that can be equipped with mass transit to the point that using a car on a day to day basis would be completely irrelevant. If we tried to cover the entire city with a bus system the money would just be spread too thin and then we would end up with a system only slightly better than what is there now.

[Kerry]

Completely agree. We need to focus the money there is for mass transit on a certain area that can be equipped with mass transit to the point that using a car on a day to day basis would be completely irrelevant. If we tried to cover the entire city with a bus system the money would just be spread too thin and then we would end up with a system only slightly better than what is there now.

If you only have a spoonful of peanut butter you can't put it on a whole loaf of bread. All you end up with is flavored bread that is slight discolored and then no one is happy about their peanut butter sandwich.

[Kerry]

By who and to what?

By the City Council to remove the couplets.

http://www.newsok.com/article/3556688

Regarding “Council accepts streetcar route” (news story, April 6): Kudos to the hard work the MAPS 3 committees are doing on the streetcar plan. I recognize the difficulty in choosing the route with so many different interests to serve. However, the plan that was recommended April 5 baffles an interested outsider such as myself. Why would the north-south routes be one block apart? Sure, if you work between Broadway and Robinson you only have to walk a half block to catch the line and that's great! But what about servicing Hudson or Walker so that downtown mainstays such as the library, Civic Center or the Museum of Art can be easily accessed?


Read more: http://newsok.com/favored-streetcar-...#ixzz1JEyypwsd

Now clearly this guy doen't know that each half of the couplet is one-way but knowing so is going to cause him to question it even more. If only he could see my black line.

[shane453]

The distance from Robinson to Broadway is about 1.5 minutes of walking at an average pace. It is an easily acceptable distance to walk to catch a streetcar headed the direction you want, and allows streetcar-adjacent property to be doubled. The slight extra walking distance due to the couplet is also only "one way"- ie, you may have to walk an extra 500 feet in the morning, but in the evening you'd be dropped off 500 feet closer. Besides all that, someone who is concerned about a 1.5 minute walk is probably not the transit/urban life demographic.

[okclee]

By the City Council to remove the couplets.

http://www.newsok.com/article/3556688



Now clearly this guy doen't know that each half of the couplet is one-way but knowing so is going to cause him to question it even more. If only he could see my black line.

Kerry........Have you emailed your map to any council members?

[Kerry]

The distance from Robinson to Broadway is about 1.5 minutes of walking at an average pace. It is an easily acceptable distance to walk to catch a streetcar headed the direction you want, and allows streetcar-adjacent property to be doubled. The slight extra walking distance due to the couplet is also only "one way"- ie, you may have to walk an extra 500 feet in the morning, but in the evening you'd be dropped off 500 feet closer. Besides all that, someone who is concerned about a 1.5 minute walk is probably not the transit/urban life demographic.

The transit group did a study and found that a vast majority of the people will not walk more than 2 blocks to catch a streetcar. This is consistant with transit studies done by multiple other reserachers all over the world. If you have to waste one block just making part of a round trip then that only leaves you one block on either side.

Europe is probably the most rail adjusted population on the planet and their isn't a single couplet based system on the continent. Even the US only has a few system that use couplets; Portland, Phoenix, and 4 blocks in Seattle. On top of that, Portland and Phoenix used couplets because of one-way streets.