Skirvin Expansion / Convention Center Hotel (dead)

[Doug Loudenback]

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Information & Latest News

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Well, if this ain't just flat-out interesting: http://www.newsok.com/skirvin-owners...ad_story_title

Skirvin owners pitch plans to make landmark the city's headquarters hotel
Owners of downtown's Skirvin Hilton are making a pitch first made a century ago — that the landmark be made the city's “headquarters hotel.”
BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: April 9, 2011

John Weeman, of Skirvin Partners, and Bill Otto, president of Marcus Hotels and Resorts, have submitted a proposal to city officials that calls for a second [425] room tower to be built just north of the hotel, where a BancFirst drive-thru is now located. The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a smaller parking structure and “gateway” that would connect the hotel via skywalk to a convention center in Bricktown along Main Street.

The convention center site, which currently consists of buildings owned by Don Karchmer and surface parking he leases from the city, was one of the finalists emerging from last month's meeting of the MAPS 3 convention center subcommittee.

“We think the north Bricktown site in combination with the Skirvin gives Oklahoma City a unique opportunity to build on the strengths of Oklahoma City as a convention venue,” Weeman said. “It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to create a link between the downtown core, where all the major hotels are located, and Bricktown, where all the wonderful things done with MAPS have been accomplished.”

Weeman argues the site holds up best to site selection criteria set by Populous, the Kansas City consultant hired by the city to determine the best locations for the $280 million convention center approved by voters as part of MAPS 3 in 2009.

Those criteria include proximity to Bricktown, downtown's restaurants, shops and entertainment venues and area hotels. Other criteria include civic presence, site feasibility and land acquisition costs.
***
Weeman is providing Populous and city officials with another argument for going with the proposal — an evaluation of existing and incoming hotel supply that shows a plunging occupancy if a full 600-room conference hotel is added to downtown. The city also has been advised it can expect to chip in at least $60 million for a new conference hotel.

The market could easier absorb a 425-room expansion of the Skirvin, Weeman said, and the city would be asked for “far less” subsidy than it would for a new 600-room hotel.

“The whole function of how to make it work will be the function of the same dream team that made the Skirvin work,” Weeman said. “At the Skirvin, you've got a great deal of the infrastructure already in place — we have a ballroom, we have the lobby, we have one restaurant on site.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/skirvin-owners-pit...#ixzz1Izpi09RF

This [above] rendering shows how an expanded Skirvin Hilton Hotel would connect with a new convention center in Bricktown. The convention center would be built on the north side of Main Street, which is currently surface parking and office buildings owned by Don Karchmer. A new parking garage would be built across from the convention center on the south side of Main Street. The new room tower would be built north of the Skirvin, where a BancFirst drive-through is now located. The Santa Fe garage would be razed and replaced with a gateway that would connect with the new convention center via a skywalk, with offices and a new garage taking up the rest of the site.

[above] The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a "gateway" that would connect the adjoining Skirvin Hilton with a convention center in Bricktown in a proposal being pitched by the hotel's owners. To the right of the gateway is a new office building the hotel owners propose could be a new home for the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber and the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau.

[soonerguru]

Of course they did. But they fail. Why? If OKC is going to "move to the next level," it's not going to be with a small convention hotel. The Skirvin doesn't have the room count to be a serous convention hotel. Not even close.

It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!

[Watson410]

I don't like the idea... I would much rather see a 5-star hotel lured in because of the Convention Center, not just connect to one of the only upper end hotels we already have... A hotel with size (15-20 floors?), is that out of the question?

[Doug Loudenback]

Of course they did. But they fail. Why? If OKC is going to "move to the next level," it's not going to be with a small convention hotel. The Skirvin doesn't have the room count to be a serous convention hotel. Not even close.

It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!

soonerguru, unless I'm badly mistaken, the city is being repaid (ahead of schedule) the city's money used to facilitate the Skirvin Hilton. Second, and again unless I'm badly mistaken, the proposal calls for a new 425 room addition to be constructed immediately north of the existing Skirvin.

[brianinok]

You're right, Doug. This appears to be a pretty sweet deal. That's my favorite of the potential convention center sites because of its proximity to Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels. And it would make our premier hotel a 650-room convention center hotel.

[mcca7596]

This could leave both the old Ford dealership site and the east side of Bricktown to be developed into housing/retail.

[SkyWestOKC]

I must say, this is the best proposal we have seen to date. You also have aLoft right next door too, plus the Pitman property hotels, restaurants, etc. all within reach. Plus the streetcar will run right next to the Skirvin, and it might eventually run through Deep Deuce and Bricktown. I really hope this proposal is picked.

Anything but the Ford site.

[Pete]

I like this idea but perhaps the new Skirvin tower could be even bigger/taller?

That location for the convention center would really bolster Bricktown and is right in the middle of all the hotels with room for more. And three hotels sit between the proposed site and the Myriad, which still will be used for lots of events. Might even finally give the impetus needed to redevelop the First National Center into a hotel.

At least with this proposal we would be adding density and supplementing the development we already have in place rather than trying to expand into yet another relatively undeveloped area.

Yellow = convention space * Pink = hotels * Blue = possible hotels

[kevinpate]

I must say, this is the best proposal we have seen to date. You also have aLoft right next door too, plus the Pitman property hotels, restaurants, etc. all within reach. Plus the streetcar will run right next to the Skirvin, and it might eventually run through Deep Deuce and Bricktown. I really hope this proposal is picked.

Anything but the Ford site.

This.

[Larry OKC]

Since we are only seeing a nondescript cube in the rendering that looks more like an office building, hard to visualize how it would compliment the Skirvin. Doesn't look like there is room on the site, but the Skirvin needs to be the "front door" of any expansion (with the expansion rising behind it maybe). If the rendering is to scale, it is dwarfing the Skirvin and that should be avoided. The C.C. hotel needs to add the minimum number of rooms the experts have said it needs (this expansion doesn't do that, they are using the existing room inventory as part of the total that is supposed to be entirely new inventory).

Totally different thing but the concept is the same, the smaller building is in front with the expansion/taller building in the rear. Ignore the Skirvenesque building to the left, concentrate on the buildings in the middle of the pic...LOL

Link

Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

[Larry OKC]

...It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!

soonerguru, unless I'm badly mistaken, the city is being repaid (ahead of schedule) the city's money used to facilitate the Skirvin Hilton. Second, and again unless I'm badly mistaken, the proposal calls for a new 425 room addition to be constructed immediately north of the existing Skirvin.

Doug, you are correct, Steve reported it Jan 4 of this year
http://www.newsok.com/report-shows-o...ticle/3529167#

A new city report shows that just four years after opening, the Skirvin Hilton Hotel is performing far better than expected, with payments back to Oklahoma City exceeding best case predictions.
...
The $56.3 million renovation required $22 million in public assistance. The city council approved the public assistance after being told by the city's finance office the hotel could be expected to pay back between $1.6 million and $1.9 million in lease payments and debt interest by September 2010.

Instead, the hotel has paid back $2.7 million despite an unexpected downturn in the national economy.

[Snowman]

While I like the convention center location depicted here more than several of the other sites, it seems like a tunnel extending at or fairly near the level of the current underground would be more practical and convenient to pedestrians in the long run for access across the street & tracks to the entire downtown area to/from the convention center & bricktown, it also seems to waste a lot of space for what is rendered as a essentially large empty building just to move people up 4 extra tall tall stories to go over the railroads then back down. Though it might be easier to get passed or finished in less time, no idea on costs or operations. Plus some in the city have expressed interest in going to sky-bridges going forward over more tunnels. Unless it ends up allowing access to new train platforms at Santa Fe station or being some use in some fashion as part of the planned hub it is almost as much of a hassle as just going on ground level, which reminds me of the fail of a pedestrian bridge at the capital. The size of the building looks like it should be the lobby of the new hotel expansion or at least have a couple shops in it.

[king183]

Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

Yes, but it also says they plan to build a new parking garage with up to 1200 spaces. I think razing the Santa Fe garage is a great idea. It's terrible looking and takes up potentially prime real estate.

[ljbab728]

Since we are only seeing a nondescript cube in the rendering that looks more like an office building, hard to visualize how it would compliment the Skirvin. Doesn't look like there is room on the site, but the Skirvin needs to be the "front door" of any expansion (with the expansion rising behind it maybe). If the rendering is to scale, it is dwarfing the Skirvin and that should be avoided. The C.C. hotel needs to add the minimum number of rooms the experts have said it needs (this expansion doesn't do that, they are using the existing room inventory as part of the total that is supposed to be entirely new inventory).

Totally different thing but the concept is the same, the smaller building is in front with the expansion/taller building in the rear. Ignore the Skirvenesque building to the left, concentrate on the buildings in the middle of the pic...LOL


Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

Larry, I think you are looking at the conceptual drawing wrong. I believe that the nondescript cube you are concerned with is the Chase Tower which is shown depicted as it is so you can see through it to see the proposed convention center behind it. The new hotel proposal is north of the Skirvin and, as seen in the depiction, it somewhat mirrors the design of the original Skirvin.

[Larry OKC]

Yes, but it also says they plan to build a new parking garage with up to 1200 spaces. I think razing the Santa Fe garage is a great idea. It's terrible looking and takes up potentially prime real estate.

I am not against getting rid of the existing garage but you need to ADD parking not make it SMALLER. From the article:

The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a smaller parking structure

[ljbab728]

I am not against getting rid of the existing garage but you need to ADD parking not make it SMALLER. From the article:

Larry, please note this part of the article:

"Weeman suggests the project could begin with construction of a new parking garage along the south side of Main Street just east of the BNSF Railway viaduct. The 800- to 1,260-space garage would incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building and be situated across the street from the proposed convention center site."

[Larry OKC]

is "800 to 1,260" spaces more or less than the existing garage?

on edit:

Santa Fe Parking Garage - Conveniently located along EK Gaylord Avenue, the Sante Fe garage is connected by skywalk to the Cox Convention Center. With over 1500 available spaces

So even if on the high end it will be taking away parking instead of adding to it (while adding 400 rooms) where are all those rental cars going to park?

[Larry OKC]

Larry, I think you are looking at the conceptual drawing wrong. I believe that the nondescript cube you are concerned with is the Chase Tower which is shown depicted as it is so you can see through it to see the proposed convention center behind it. The new hotel proposal is north of the Skirvin and, as seen in the depiction, it somewhat mirrors the design of the original Skirvin.

Thanks for the clarification (sorry, am lousy with directions and the map didn't indicate where north was). If that is the case, it is better but that design still doesn't look like it is really part of the Skirvin. What I am seeing is something that would look like it was designed that way all along (had been there as long as the Skirvin). Sort of along the lines when they put the dome on the state capitol it doesn't look "new", looks like it has always been there/blends right into the existing building. Of course it helps that it was designed to have a dome on it. Thats all I was trying to say

[ljbab728]

is "800 to 1,260" spaces more or less than the existing garage?

on edit:


So even if on the high end it will be taking away parking instead of adding to it (while adding 400 rooms) where are all those rental cars going to park?

The current garage is supposed to have 1,518 spaces. The article states that when that site is rebuilt it will have between 575 and 895 spaces which would be in addition to the new garage which would have between 800 and 1260 spaces. It would likely result in a net gain of sparking spaces.

[Architect2010]

In love with this proposal. Densifies and takes advantage of existing resources. Please let this one be chosen.

[Larry OKC]

Sorry again for my confusion...am replying by PM until I get this sorted out. LOL

[UnFrSaKn]

I actually did some video in this exact spot yesterday before I heard of this article. I got inside the Santa Fe parking garage and the Clarence Ford Park. It'll be good to get the artifacts from the Baum, Patterson, Criterion, and Biltmore buildings in a proper place. I'm sure you've all seen how rundown and pitiful the park is.











I'll have video and pictures up later today hopefully.

[UnFrSaKn]

By the way, that "Gateway" arch they're proposing, I hope they really nail the design architecturally. Go big or go home.

[Spartan]

This is a bad idea. The numbers don't work. The reason the numbers fall so short is that they're making some argument that OKC can't support more hotel rooms. The truth of the matter is that OKC has a desperate need for more downtown hotel rooms, and adding only 400 as opposed to 800 more is not a preferable alternative. I don't know how anybody could think that is a preferable alternative. The Skirvin is already booked solid. And other reasons.

I like how J. Pitman nailed it when he suggested this a few weeks ago in another thread. It's an intriguing idea, but it's just an idea. I'd rather see a new hotel as a preference, and that would seem to be a much more feasible idea with making the numbers work, as well. The only problem is where to put it. We have soooooo much open land in this city and it's so unfortunate that we can't figure out which parcel of open land we can use for a convention center hotel. It would be nice to get some kind of "new development" out of this as well. What kind of new development will be spurred by just utilizing an existing hotel?

***I do really like some of these ideas, however. IF the Cox Center site is eventually demolished and turned into a new mixed-use development, then it could be a good idea to tear down the Santa Fe Garage and create some new space for downtown transit hub activities adjacent to the Skirvin. That could be a truly amazing location for that because of how it lines up dead-center with Park Avenue, the heart of downtown. So I think this proposal is a non-starter for a new convention hotel, but it might have merit going forward with other purposes.

Take or leave the 400-room expansion, that's not going to make as much of a difference, because it is likely not going to be the convention hotel anyway just because of how unfeasible a solution this would be. But it does have you thinking that if Marcus is already thinking about expansion, then perhaps they might do it anyway just as some off-spin development we will get because of M3, particularly the convention center.

[Patrick]

I like the idea, I just think the expansion needs to be taller and have close to 600 rooms, instead of the 400 they're proposing. Why not make a hotel tower, with 30+ floors?