First National Center

[PhiAlpha]

It would be cool if midfirst relocated it's HQ there after Chesapeake inevitably pushes them out of their current location.

[ZYX2]

Again, if you are only considering cheap rents, go to the suburbs. You want something for nothing. No one is going to re-do the building for $500 per month rents. Let's get real. I have an apartment in New York City. I would love to be on Park Avenue near Central Park. However, we are in Chelsea. It is great, near the hipper areas, but it isn't in the higher rent area. If you want absolutely the best locations you will pay for it anywhere. You can dream, I guess, but it isn't realistic.

I was watching HGTV the other day, and a girl looked at an apartment in France that was 86 sq feet that cost $130,000. She then bought a 151 sq ft apartment for $180,000 and considered it roomy. But I guess I should add that she was looking in the eighteenth district in Paris. You pay for location. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[Kerry]

Again, if you are only considering cheap rents, go to the suburbs. You want something for nothing. No one is going to re-do the building for $500 per month rents. Let's get real. I have an apartment in New York City. I would love to be on Park Avenue near Central Park. However, we are in Chelsea. It is great, near the hipper areas, but it isn't in the higher rent area. If you want absolutely the best locations you will pay for it anywhere. You can dream, I guess, but it isn't realistic.

Rover, you are the one with the mixed socio-economic idea for FNC, not me.

[bombermwc]

Kerry - you want to know what I would like to see? I want to see an apartment that gives you the space for the price that doesn't make you stupid to pay for it rather than buy a freaking house. That's what I want to see. If i'm going to pay ~$1K a month for ~1800sqft, ok so that's about a mortgage payment right now. That one I can see a person going either way...just depends on their choice in having yard or not. HOWEVER, all this crap we're seeing where the price of the place is double that. They are making that price point because the developer either is saying "i only want a certain income level in my building" (which means yes it is a class choice), or they are't really making a long-term investment and are looking to fill the place enough to sell it off and make a buck.

So what I want to see is someong that offers a reasonable price for the average joe to come in and pay that 1K for that 1500-1800 and get a place. It doesn't have to be fancy, it's just an average apartment. it doesn't have to have granite counters, oak crown molding, etc. But you know what, you're going to attract the 20 somethings with lots of disposable income this way. Most folks in that demographic (look at it statistically) in OKC move OUT when they have children. Why not grab them before they get there so they can get in on the wagon first? You can count on a couple hands how many families live in these "upscale" places with children. Oh and anyone have a pet? No? Ok, then I guess these will work for you.

I'm not saying every development needs to offer something, but SOMEONE needs to. It's absolutely, 100%, NEVER going to turn downtown into a honest sustainable place to LIVE if something other than upscale exists. Next time the economy tanks, these upscale places are going to be the first places to go. And the owners of each unit are going to lose a TON of money on them. Same old story that has happened time and time again in the overbuilt urban environment....see Miami.

[BoulderSooner]

a 20 something doesn't need an apt that has 1800 sq feet .. that is much bigger than lots of houses all over the metro ..

[Rover]

Kerry - you want to know what I would like to see? I want to see an apartment that gives you the space for the price that doesn't make you stupid to pay for it rather than buy a freaking house. That's what I want to see. If i'm going to pay ~$1K a month for ~1800sqft, ok so that's about a mortgage payment right now. That one I can see a person going either way...just depends on their choice in having yard or not. HOWEVER, all this crap we're seeing where the price of the place is double that. They are making that price point because the developer either is saying "i only want a certain income level in my building" (which means yes it is a class choice), or they are't really making a long-term investment and are looking to fill the place enough to sell it off and make a buck.

So what I want to see is someong that offers a reasonable price for the average joe to come in and pay that 1K for that 1500-1800 and get a place. It doesn't have to be fancy, it's just an average apartment. it doesn't have to have granite counters, oak crown molding, etc. But you know what, you're going to attract the 20 somethings with lots of disposable income this way. Most folks in that demographic (look at it statistically) in OKC move OUT when they have children. Why not grab them before they get there so they can get in on the wagon first? You can count on a couple hands how many families live in these "upscale" places with children. Oh and anyone have a pet? No? Ok, then I guess these will work for you.

I'm not saying every development needs to offer something, but SOMEONE needs to. It's absolutely, 100%, NEVER going to turn downtown into a honest sustainable place to LIVE if something other than upscale exists. Next time the economy tanks, these upscale places are going to be the first places to go. And the owners of each unit are going to lose a TON of money on them. Same old story that has happened time and time again in the overbuilt urban environment....see Miami.

1800 sq ft apartment downtown for $1,000 per month? Won't happen unless it is a dump. People need to get real about what it takes. Office rent for class A downtown is $1.50 to $2 per foot per month. 1800 feet would be $3000 per month. Why in the world build an apartment building with club rooms, pools, etc. or space with kitchens, more bathrooms, etc. Decent hotels run from $150,000 to $300,000 per key (room) to build and that would be 300-500 sq feet. Building downtown is expensive and building UP is expensive. If people want cheap, then they give up location and lifestyle.

[bombermwc]

Rover, that's my entire point. Office space does not go for the same as residential...apples and oranges. You guys just made entire ever loving point.

Remember we're not talking about building either, we're talking about conversion.

And last time I checked, NYC and every other large city had exactlly what I'm talking about. Obivously they are more expensive because of their market, but don't pretend to create a false market in OKC.

And BTW, there are units in the area that are more in the 1200ft for about 1K a month downtown right now. Guess what, they are in normal average apartment buildings too. So again, if you're going to have to go to a normal 2 story apartment building, why live there instead of somewhere further out where there are things like grocery stores, gas stations, schools, etc. Oh please let me take twice as long to get in/out of my area while i work my way through downtown traffic. i guess I could hop on the train and ride it out....oh no wait, we don't have a real commuter line.

The demographics they are pulling for downtown in these upscale places just aren't sustainable forever. The "scale" needs to expand out. That doesn't mean you have to provide freaking section 8, but it does mean you need to have something besides a 2K a month unit or a 250K lease.

[Kerry]

I see what you are saying Bomber but the expense in building downtown is not the 'finishing touches'. Putting laminate counter tops in a mid-rise condo building instead of granite lowers the price from $300,000 to $297,000. If you are going to be spending that much doesn't it make more sense to have the nicer finishes?

Perhaps if you took out on-site parking, a pool, rec room, and other amenities you could get the price down to $200,000. Most apartment and condo buildings in NYC don't have them. If you look at all the recent residential construction downtown there are pools, on-site parking, common lounges, patios, decks, social gathering places, etc. Do you think there is a market for a building without all that? There might be.

[Rover]

Rover, that's my entire point. Office space does not go for the same as residential...apples and oranges. You guys just made entire ever loving point.

Remember we're not talking about building either, we're talking about conversion.

And last time I checked, NYC and every other large city had exactlly what I'm talking about. Obivously they are more expensive because of their market, but don't pretend to create a false market in OKC.

And BTW, there are units in the area that are more in the 1200ft for about 1K a month downtown right now. Guess what, they are in normal average apartment buildings too. So again, if you're going to have to go to a normal 2 story apartment building, why live there instead of somewhere further out where there are things like grocery stores, gas stations, schools, etc. Oh please let me take twice as long to get in/out of my area while i work my way through downtown traffic. i guess I could hop on the train and ride it out....oh no wait, we don't have a real commuter line.

The demographics they are pulling for downtown in these upscale places just aren't sustainable forever. The "scale" needs to expand out. That doesn't mean you have to provide freaking section 8, but it does mean you need to have something besides a 2K a month unit or a 250K lease.

I think you should use your logic and put together an investment group and go make lots of money. You have figured something out the others haven't. Good luck and let me know when you are vacationing on the Mediterranean.

[Rover]

I see what you are saying Bomber but the expense in building downtown is not the 'finishing touches'. Putting laminate counter tops in a mid-rise condo building instead of granite lowers the price from $300,000 to $297,000. If you are going to be spending that much doesn't it make more sense to have the nicer finishes?

Perhaps if you took out on-site parking, a pool, rec room, and other amenities you could get the price down to $200,000. Most apartment and condo buildings in NYC don't have them. If you look at all the recent residential construction downtown there are pools, on-site parking, common lounges, patios, decks, social gathering places, etc. Do you think there is a market for a building without all that? There might be.

Repurposing an office building to meet 2011 building standards and codes as well as adding kitchens, bathrooms, closets, lighting etc. is extremely expensive. Most likely it is a complete retrofit of HVAC and plumbing, and possibly electrical. May even change what is required in fire systems. People who think all you do is slap some counter tops in and apply a fresh coat of paint are obviously not in the business and not realistic.

[blendd]

Repurposing an office building to meet 2011 building standards and codes as well as adding kitchens, bathrooms, closets, lighting etc. is extremely expensive. Most likely it is a complete retrofit of HVAC and plumbing, and possibly electrical. May even change what is required in fire systems. People who think all you do is slap some counter tops in and apply a fresh coat of paint are obviously not in the business and not realistic.

Rover is 100% correct. To those that are suggesting that the FNC tower be transformed into condos/apartments/residential, I ask: Have you been inside the FNC tower above the 3rd floor? Sure the Great Banking Hall is awesome and gorgeous, the art deco outside is unique and the granite building will survive whatever natural disaster is thrust upon it. However, the fact of the matter is the building is stuck in the 1940/50's as far as technology and infrastructure. That's why the FNC is bleeding non-governmental tenants. When was the last time we heard of a big law firm, engineering firm or architecture group moving IN to the FNC? I know plenty have moved out to more modern space. What about a restaurant? The Beacon Club was up there but why hasn't that space been filled in the years since they moved across the street?

I could be very wrong but I can't see any way that any major corporate HQ is moving into the FNC on a permanent basis without first completely gutting the entire building. The elevators are constantly being worked on. The windows rattle, hum and howl like there's no tomorrow when the Oklahoma wind blows (and let's not discuss the Depression-era "chicken-wire embedded in glass" panes in some of the windows not facing the street). Want to go to the restroom on one of the upper tower floors? Then you better hoof it to the northside stairwell and go up or down a half-flight as that is where they hide the plumbing. Drop ceilings to hide cables/wiring/pipes? Dream on, those tiles are glued to the ceiling. The walls are solid so there's no hiding cables/wires/pipes inside them. Sure, there's a closet or two on each floor for trunk lines but how does that help you hide the cords and lines for that flat-screen you want to hang in your conference room, reception area or super-duper luxury condo? And yeah, what about that sprinkling system? I never saw one in the 20 years I officed in that building but maybe other floors were sprinkled on a "hodge-podge" basis.

The FNC is a great old lady of a building. But no amount of patchwork plastic surgery here and there is going to turn her into a young buxom desirable building that people will want to live in or work in. What the FNC tower needs is a complete "Skirvin-ish" redo to bring the place up to the expectations and needs of today's corporate or residential clientele. Until the City or some private benefactor steps up with a lot of $$$, time and thoughtful planning to return her to her former glory, she'll just continue to wither away like she's been doing since long before Boatmen's Bank abandoned her for Leadership Square.

blendd

[Spartan]

Rover is 100% correct. To those that are suggesting that the FNC tower be transformed into condos/apartments/residential, I ask: Have you been inside the FNC tower above the 3rd floor? Sure the Great Banking Hall is awesome and gorgeous, the art deco outside is unique and the granite building will survive whatever natural disaster is thrust upon it. However, the fact of the matter is the building is stuck in the 1940/50's as far as technology and infrastructure. That's why the FNC is bleeding non-governmental tenants. When was the last time we heard of a big law firm, engineering firm or architecture group moving IN to the FNC? I know plenty have moved out to more modern space. What about a restaurant? The Beacon Club was up there but why hasn't that space been filled in the years since they moved across the street?

I could be very wrong but I can't see any way that any major corporate HQ is moving into the FNC on a permanent basis without first completely gutting the entire building. The elevators are constantly being worked on. The windows rattle, hum and howl like there's no tomorrow when the Oklahoma wind blows (and let's not discuss the Depression-era "chicken-wire embedded in glass" panes in some of the windows not facing the street). Want to go to the restroom on one of the upper tower floors? Then you better hoof it to the northside stairwell and go up or down a half-flight as that is where they hide the plumbing. Drop ceilings to hide cables/wiring/pipes? Dream on, those tiles are glued to the ceiling. The walls are solid so there's no hiding cables/wires/pipes inside them. Sure, there's a closet or two on each floor for trunk lines but how does that help you hide the cords and lines for that flat-screen you want to hang in your conference room, reception area or super-duper luxury condo? And yeah, what about that sprinkling system? I never saw one in the 20 years I officed in that building but maybe other floors were sprinkled on a "hodge-podge" basis.

The FNC is a great old lady of a building. But no amount of patchwork plastic surgery here and there is going to turn her into a young buxom desirable building that people will want to live in or work in. What the FNC tower needs is a complete "Skirvin-ish" redo to bring the place up to the expectations and needs of today's corporate or residential clientele. Until the City or some private benefactor steps up with a lot of $$$, time and thoughtful planning to return her to her former glory, she'll just continue to wither away like she's been doing since long before Boatmen's Bank abandoned her for Leadership Square.

blendd

I hope nobody that hopes to see the FNC returned to life expects it to happen any other way...of course you don't get something for nothing. I think (or hope) that the point of Kerry and Bomber is that the FNC could easily produce enough revenue streams if renovated and brought back to glory to pay for what would be such an enormous renovation project.

[Kerry]

Well, one thing is for sure. These $5 million rehabs every few years aren't going to cut it. Go big or go home.

[Rover]

I hope nobody that hopes to see the FNC returned to life expects it to happen any other way...of course you don't get something for nothing. I think (or hope) that the point of Kerry and Bomber is that the FNC could easily produce enough revenue streams if renovated and brought back to glory to pay for what would be such an enormous renovation project.

But not at $500 for a 1800 ft apartment. It won't cash flow after renovation if that is the target. There is an adaptive reuse in that building, but it isn't cheap apartments alone.

[Rover]

Well, one thing is for sure. These $5 million rehabs every few years aren't going to cut it. Go big or go home.

That's why everyone has gone home, so far.

[Spartan]

But not at $500 for a 1800 ft apartment. It won't cash flow after renovation if that is the target. There is an adaptive reuse in that building, but it isn't cheap apartments alone.

You can't even get $500 apartments with 1800 sf in the suburbs, not even in Del City lol. Realistically, along Memorial Rd I think $600/mo might fetch you around 600 sf. So at that proportion, I think $600/mo for a studio, and $800/mo for 600 sf sounds reasonable, and I do think that would cash flow. I also like the idea of having a mix of more upscale units such as 10-20 penthouse apartments going for >$2,000/mo within the property, because that will ensure long-term upkeep and maintenance of the FNC.

I think people need to realize that urban floorplans are a lot more open and efficient than suburban floor plans. Plus, the intended demographic is usually single, so I think something smaller and more stylish would be perfect. Somehow 100 sf in an inner city often feels more like 200 sf in the suburbs. A 600 sf downtown apartment is more than enough space for someone without a family.

And to go along with what betts and rover often preach, that I think bomber and others need to see a few more times, is that downtown residential is a lifestyle product. A lot of that is selling a particular lifestyle. Just as Memorial Rd apartments are a lifestyle product, albeit, a highly inferior one. As far as the lack of a grocery store goes, downtown living is a lifestyle that is slowly emerging with real milestones in OKC. A downtown grocery option is just one of those milestones that lay ahead.

[bombermwc]

OMG, i don't care if it turns residential or not, it is still going to require gutting. Just as you said, "brining it up to 2011 standards". It's woefully inadequate for ANYTHING, residential or commercial. It has such a narrow niche of types of offices that can use such a small floorplan per floor, that's just one more strike against it. That's why they built the expansions in the first place....twice.

And I'll restate the same thing I did earlier. My idea on the residential is done every day in other cities. No, the owners aren't going to retire to the mediteranean on them. But they will still be profitable. If they weren't, you wouldn't have places for anyone to live in NYC now would you. Or how about LA, Chicago, Miami, Seattle, etc. It can be done, it has been done, and IS being done. We just don't have anyone here that has the balls to do something without some assumed large wealth strategy out of it. Yeah it requires upfront capital and a slower ROI. So what we need is a LONG TERM investor instead of someone just looking to flip a building. For me, that's a pretty good deal because that owner is going to stick it out to make the place work instead of just trying to off-load it.

[bombermwc]

Oh and FYI - here's a quote from the Regency Tower thread.

"I used to live there. As far as being a stand alone apartment complex, it doesn't get much better for price/view/safety etc.. Obviously I would have rather had more to do within a couple blocks walking distance, but other than that, it was great.
When I moved out, almost 2 yrs ago, I was paying $775 (which included all bills except Cox), and I had a one-bedroom apartment on the 17th floor with my own balcony and ceiling to floor windows...it was great."

So a 1 bed goes for 775. Throw in a second bedroom and you've got the standard apartment around town. Tack on another couple hundred bucks a month for that apartment to pay for the room and BAM. There's my point. We need more of THIS. Oh and what city is that already being done in...oh yeah, ours.

[Rover]

Yes, but the Regency was built as an apartment building, not converted. I don't think you can compare the rent that Regency gets with what would be required to make FNC a financially viable project with just cheap rental. This thread is about ideas for FNC, right?

[Kerry]

Is remodeling an 80 year old building to compete against a 44 year old building a sensible thing to do?

[BDP]

Oh please let me take twice as long to get in/out of my area while i work my way through downtown traffic

Downtown traffic? Did you mean Edmond?

I agree downtown needs services to make it work, but it is no more inconvenient that living in the suburbs. You still have to drive to get groceries no matter where you live in this city and, on the average day, there is way more congestion on Broadway in Edmond than on Broadway downtown.

[Spartan]

This is interesting to tap into though. "That downtown traffic..."

More like, "That Okie anti-downtown impulse..."

[ZYX2]

I live in Bixby. Aside from event nights, traffic is generally worse here than in downtown OKC or Tulsa. People just don't seem to get that downtown traffic is no worse than the suburbs. This isn't NYC or Chicago. Just because there all tall buildings around you does not mean you are stuck in a gridlock.

[Kerry]

I live in Bixby. Aside from event nights, traffic is generally worse here than in downtown OKC or Tulsa. People just don't seem to get that downtown traffic is no worse than the suburbs. This isn't NYC or Chicago. Just because there all tall buildings around you does not mean you are stuck in a gridlock.

That is because most people only see downtown streets at 7:45AM to 8:15AM, 4:45PM to 5:15PM, and during Thunder game nights. What they don't see is at 8PM on a non-game night you could lay down on Park Ave and not worry about getting run over. Try that on a any street in Edmond at the same time.

[MikeOKC]

Is remodeling an 80 year old building to compete against a 44 year old building a sensible thing to do?

In my opinion, if done right, there wouldn't be any competition. To use a hotel metaphor, it would be like comparing a newer high rise Holiday Inn to an older, but far more plush, Ritz-Carlton.