Downtown needs large grocery store

[Jack]

Some probably wouldn't agree with this statement, but what would be wrong with allowing a big box grocery store like Wal-Mart Neighborhood market or Albertsons to locate on the west side of downtown, on vacant land near the Union Bus station. This would be the perfect location for a huge grocery store. Sure, it would be suburban, but it might finally kick off residential life in downtown OKC.

[metro]

I need not say more. This would be another insult to the renaissance downtown OKC has been making the last 10 years. We could build this, then tear down First National, then put some more cookie cutters in lower bricktown, put one story buildings throughout downtown and maybe we could have more suburbia and look like nw expressway. yeah!! Downtown living is taking off on its own and will get a grocery store when the market forces create enough demand. Simple supply and demand economics.

[Midtowner]

Jack, with all of these problems, that you're finding you need to run for city council.

[Pete]

Retail follows residential, not the other way around.

I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC for seven years and specialized in retail properties and tenants... They all go off of 1-, 3- and 5-mile demographics and right now the 1-mile in downtown is almost a zero.

I recently contacted the real estate reps for both Walgreens and CVS and both said the area was not even close to being ready to support one of their stores.

Plus, Walgreens and Wal-Mart Neighborbood Markets are already on 23rd and Classen/Penn and they feel like the serve the area well enough from those locations.


There are about 2,200 residential units planned for the downtown area over the next couple of years and once they are built and some bigger projects are announced, you might find a retailer that wants to be a 'first-mover' and beat everyone else to the punch, but even still there are plenty of vacant and under-utilized properties in and around that area, so I would expect most to be patient and let things build up.

[metro]

Jack, with all of these problems, that you're finding you need to run for city council.

Please don't. I don't want to see First National torn down and Urban Renewal in full reign like the 70's and casinos and everything else un-unique along the river

[Midtowner]

If the voters of OKC took him seriously, they'd deserve what they'd get.

[Jack]

I see no problem with casinos on the river. Have a few riverboats docked on the river with casino gaming machines inside. Sounds like a pretty cool idea to me.

[Jack]

And by the way, we need to start somewhere. Bass Pro was a subruban store that kicked off retail nicely in Bricktown. The same could take place other places in downtown.

[Midtowner]

Jack, there's a huge difference between a Bass Pro Shops and a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market. I'm surprised you're even trying to make the comparison.

[Jack]

Okay then, Albertsons. Or Homeland.

[jdsplaypin]

St. Louis has gaming on their Mississippi river downtown... it seems to work there. so its just a matter of opinion.

[BDP]

What would be the point? It would add nothing to the city and would only water down the potential for diversifying our housing and living mix. If people want big box living, we got it. Our supply of that lifestyle already fully meets demand. the idea here is to offer potential residents options of lifestyle in the city. This improves your competitive position in the labor market. We're trying to improve options, not move sideways.

As for Bass Pro, what retail kick off is it responsible for? There has been no retail explosion and what there has been is much more associated with the movie theater than Bass Pro. That store itself is underperforming as Bass Pro continues to saturate its presence in Oklahoma.

[Jack]

What would be the point? It would add nothing to the city and would only water down the potential for diversifying our housing and living mix. If people want big box living, we got it. Our supply of that lifestyle already fully meets demand. the idea here is to offer potential residents options of lifestyle in the city. This improves your competitive position in the labor market. We're trying to improve options, not move sideways.

As for Bass Pro, what retail kick off is it responsible for? There has been no retail explosion and what there has been is much more associated with the movie theater than Bass Pro. That store itself is underperforming as Bass Pro continues to saturate its presence in Oklahoma.

The point would be to attract more residents downtown. Many residents don't want to live downtown because it's inconvenient. There are no grocery stores downtown.

Bass Pro has kicked off Firefly, Boones General Store, Painted Door, etc.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

The point would be to attract more residents downtown. Many residents don't want to live downtown because it's inconvenient. There are no grocery stores downtown. Bass Pro has kicked off Firefly, Boones General Store, Painted Door, etc.

I think that I see the point you are trying to make Jack, but just because these other business opened in Bricktown post-Bass Pro, it is a bit of a stretch to make a direct link. It's just not that simple. The only easily traced direct link, is the investment of public funds in the ballpark, canal, arena etc. And by the way, there is a mid-sized Homeland at NW 18th and Classen which is as close to the Deep Duece Apartments as most suburban houses are to the grocery store where they shop. It's just not a grocery store that most people think of as a downtown store or, frankly, one that has sufficient urban appeal.

Also, regarding the grocery store issue. The City of OKC is presently engaged in a market and site study to help attract an urban grocery retailer. Early this spring, after the study is completed, they will begin the recruitment process and no existing OKC grocers are on the short list. Unlike your view Jack, which lacks much thought or study, The City recognizes that the urban market requires a different approach. Chains like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's are the ones being considered.

A Whole Foods downtown would be a destination and attract consumers from the entire metro, not just downtown residents. There will be sufficient downtown housing completed by mid-2007 to provide the setting and base market for an urban grocery store. Granted, most OKCitians will still choose WalMart, Albertsons etc., just like most will still choose the burbs as a place to live. We're only talking about a few thousand dwellers downtown in the first place. No one is suggesting that everyone should sell their three-bed-two-&-1/2-bath-W/.175-acre-lawn-american-dream and move downtown. A lot of people just get way too defensive when they discuss downtown housing. Perhaps it is based in some unreasonable fear of the "creative class".

The way overused term "think outside the box" couldn't be more appropriate than as it applies to the new downtown grocery store issue.

[Midtowner]

DTG, I'd say think outside the box is inappropriate.

Think inside the box -- just remember which box to think inside.

You make the point nicely, we're talking about downtown and unique, not the urban sprawl repetitive landscape that you already find throughout the rest of Oklahoma City.

When downtown is a booming place 20 years from now, I want it to look different than Edmond's I-35 Corridor.

-- no Super Wal-Marts please.

[Pete]

Trader Joe's would be another destination specialty market that takes about 1/3 or 1/4 as much space as a typical supermarket.


Personally, I prefer it to Whole Foods and think it would do better in OKC. Their focus is more on unique and value items rather than organic and health foods.

[BDP]

Bass Pro has kicked off Firefly, Boones General Store, Painted Door, etc.

Association does not prove causation and there is a lot more things in Bricktown that are much closer in target market to those stores than Bass Pro. Bricktown is a hassle from most Bass Pro shoppers and it shows by it not making projections. They want to bring their trailers, mobile homes, SUVs, fishing boats etc to the store on their way in or out from a an extended outdoor trip. How does this translates into shopping women's fashion apparel at Firefly or hitting Painted Door? Those places get more from the movies than they do BP.

The point would be to attract more residents downtown.

OK, so you propose to attract residents downtown by giving them exactly what they have in the suburbs? Again, what is the point? Anyone looking to live downtown is looking for something different than what OKC already offers in abundance. The point is to diversify the housing and lifestyle mix, not homogenize it further.

I agree with other posters that if it is going to go big, it has to offer a lot of specialty goods like Trader Joe’s or Whole Foods to attract the crowd big enough to support it. Anything nicer than the 18th st. Homeland will probably get the business of the historic districts as well. I think the immediate market is bigger than just downtown. But, imo, what downtown needs short term is a small grocer within walking distance that can be a daily supplement to weekly or bi-weekly trips to Homeland or Albertsons.

[osupa05]

O.K., while me and my non-creative self would love to contribute something productive to this discussion, the only thing I can add is this: I live close to the Homeland on NW 18th and Classen and only go there if I run out of eggs in the middle of cookies. I choose instead to go to Wallie World.. which for all it's awfulness still finds a way to consume a good size chunk of my money. I would love to see an urban grocery store... and not another wal-mart, etc. I like the idea of unique... which brings up the question.. why haven't I ever been to Kamp's? I don't even know if they sell eggs there! I remember going to a Trader Joe's in Illinois once.. it was kind of fun... had interesting items and lots of alcohol! But, like I said... I have no good ideas! Just don't put in another walmart!

[windowphobe]

If I had my druthers, and of course I don't, I'd like to see Crescent Market - which in its 1889 incarnation was on Main between Robinson and Harvey - come back downtown.

(Don't hold your breath. I just think it would be incredibly cool.)

[TStheThird]

Hell... I would drive from Stillwater to go to Whole Foods. Being the master of Italian culinary arts that I am, I have a lot of trouble finding key ingredients that I need. Whole foods has an amazing selection of just about everything.

[Patrick]

If I had my druthers, and of course I don't, I'd like to see Crescent Market - which in its 1889 incarnation was on Main between Robinson and Harvey - come back downtown.

(Don't hold your breath. I just think it would be incredibly cool.)

Well, Chesapeake owns all of Nichols Hills Plaza now. Maybe we can get them to boot Crescent Market out. Then they can move downtown.

[Jack]

Since we're going to have a bunch of home owners downtown in the near future, we might want to call up Lowes or Home Depot as well. Wouldn't a massive orange Home Depot look lovely in place of Bob Howard Ford? The nursery would blend in nicely with the Crystal Bridge across the street.

[osupa05]

Since we're going to have a bunch of home owners downtown in the near future, we might want to call up Lowes or Home Depot as well. Wouldn't a massive orange Home Depot look lovely in place of Bob Howard Ford? The nursery would blend in nicely with the Crystal Bridge across the street.

"you're killin' me smalls!"

[Jack]

Create some diversity down there. Once we get the Wal-Mart and Home Depot in place, Ross, Old Navy, Shoe Carnival, TJ Maxx, Office Depot, etc. will follow. What a retail explosion there will be. Give all the thanks to Wal-Mart for starting the retail boom in downtown.

[BDP]

Since we're going to have a bunch of home owners downtown in the near future, we might want to call up Lowes or Home Depot as well. Wouldn't a massive orange Home Depot look lovely in place of Bob Howard Ford? The nursery would blend in nicely with the Crystal Bridge across the street.

Create some diversity down there. Once we get the Wal-Mart and Home Depot in place, Ross, Old Navy, Shoe Carnival, TJ Maxx, Office Depot, etc. will follow. What a retail explosion there will be. Give all the thanks to Wal-Mart for starting the retail boom in downtown.

These types of developments could actually kill the real estate value for housing downtown. Most developers are anticipating above average price/sq foot based on the uniqueness on the area and lifestyle. Following an Edmond/Moore development model only puts downtown housing developments in competition with those highly developed areas, putting downward pressure on property values. As long as the area stays unique and does not overbuild, developers retain a competitive advantage. This way they become the only source of urban living in the city, and as long as it retains both its urban characteristics and its relative exclusivity, they can get higher prices and better ROI.

Again, this is not about competing with big box culture or moving it downtown. It is about diversifying the housing mix in Oklahoma City and giving the relatively small population that wants urban living a choice to stay in OKC.