Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

You keep saying city staff gave you a time line that is expedited due to a Project 180 deadline, I'm asking you to tell me who it is. Or are you asking me to take your word that this is so?

I am telling you that they have provided us a window in which our "basic" requirements can be factored into the drawings for their next phases. They have told us when the next phases are scheduled to begin. What obligations they have to Devon or within their own structure is unknown to us.

A formal Project 180 presentation was given by city staff and it has been repeatedly discussed since we first began to meet.

[Steve]

WHO IS "THEY" Jeff? Betts, can you tell me who "they" might be?

[Urban Pioneer]

You won't name the person who imposed this deadline that is the reason you cite over and over again for the time line you are following.
I encounter this from time to time. That's fine. You're within your right not to answer my question. Just know that when a person refuses to answer a question like this, I just dig deeper....
Have a good evening sir.

No singular person imposed a deadline. We have ongoing presentations of information from city staff at each of our meetings. Where their schedules come from are beyond us.

Plus, if there was a reason to be demanding a delay, you would here most of us yelling. If we could not come to consensus on a route for example, we would probably be yelling. But we have come to consensus. So what's the point?

[Urban Pioneer]

WHO IS "THEY" Jeff? Betts, can you tell me who "they" might be?

City staff who are present at our meetings

[Steve]

So a voice from God told you there was a deadline? Did some mysteriously glue a poster to the wall telling you there was a deadline for Project 180? Come on...

[Steve]

City staff present at the meeting.
Was it Eric Wenger?
Was it Jim Thompson?
Was it Rick Cain?

[Steve]

Sid, I just want a straight answer as to WHO is telling the committee there is still a Project 180 deadline. Why is that an unreasonable question? You are for openness ... so let's open up.

[Steve]

There is a big difference between being told "this is the schedule" and "Project 180 must be done in two years." Why am I being unreasonable in asking which city staffer is saying there is a deadline to get Project 180 done in two years?

[Urban Pioneer]

So a voice from God told you there was a deadline? Did some mysteriously glue a poster to the wall telling you there was a deadline for Project 180? Come on...

No, it was actually a small glowing parrot who flew into my bedroom one night and squawked "Torn up streets!" "Torn up streets!" "What would your mother say?!!" "tisch, tisch"..... "such a waste".... "such a waste"... "tisch tisch"

[betts]

Steve, since I didn't really know who anyone is and am bad at names, I can't tell you. And, since we've had six meetings, with multiple presentations from various groups, I really cannot remember. I do very clearly remember being told that the second phase of Project 180 will be going out for bids either late this spring or early this summer (can't remember it either). I think we were told that several times. As has been said, we can only deal with the information we are given. It's not up to us to winkle out whether what we are being told is factual or not. Even if Devon doesn't have a timeline, perhaps the city has imposed one. I'm not sure why that is a problem, really. After spending the last six months trying to negotiate downtown on a daily basis, I'm all for a timeline. Get this done and give me streets I can drive on and walk on.

Regardless, I and others pushed very hard for a simple route with very few jogs. We talked at length about couplets versus having both lines on the same street and we all felt as though the couplet system was best, for all the reasons outlined here over and over. I spent hours in my car driving around, spent hours walking around and saw that Robinson made an excellent spine, since it has a boulevard stretching all the way up to 30th street and goes to Capitol Hill. Other people mentioned Robinson as a possible spine too....the meetings have seemed incredibly organic, which to me means routes we've discussed are somewhat intuitive. I am old-time mass transit user and so I tried to think of what made sense to me, and we've had the input of multiple people who have traveled to look at other streetcars and mass transit routes.

If you decide Robinson makes sense and you all agree that the couplet system makes sense, then there are only two streets as options. I personally think Broadway is terribly important, and I was certainly one of the people pushing for it. There's our system, simple, oft discussed and, as Jeff and I have said, needing input from engineers to make sure its workable. If it's not, how much better to know now than 3 years from now?

Midtown, to me was simple as well. Again, I thought 13th St. was terribly important and 11th seemed very logical. Not quite a couplet, but close and walkable. I thought Midtown as a destination was important as well.

As for the rest, it's a bunch of dotted lines. Dotted lines means we don't know what will work, but it gives the engineers something to work with to help us begin to figure costs. Since the dotted lines are in the general area of the discussed convention center locations, once we know, we'll try to fill in the dots, based on what the engineers tell us we can and cannot do.

Preferred route. It means that's what we would like to see, all things being equal. Until the engineers tell us what we can do, it cannot be any more definitive than that. To be honest with you, I remember in one of the many presentations we've sat through, being told that we are a interdisciplinary group, and that the convention committee was as interested in what we thought was a good route as we should be in where they locate the convention center.

[Steve]

Thanks Sid. So you've not heard any city staffer saying that some of the Project 180 construction bids couldn't be delayed to give your committee more time to gather information for deciding routes?

[Urban Pioneer]

City staff present at the meeting.
Was it Eric Wenger?
Was it Jim Thompson?
Was it Rick Cain?

Yep! They were all there... huddled in the corner whispering. Then they collectively turned around and yelled at us that we better get busy!

[Steve]

Alrighty Jeff. Not going to bother asking you about this anymore - clearly you don't want to answer.
To Betts and Sid - do you think the committee would be making decisions in the current order if Project 180 weren't a consideration?

[Urban Pioneer]

clearly you don't want to answer.

I gave you an answer. Multiple city staff at various public meetings.

[Steve]

And you won't name a single one. That's fine.

[betts]

Going to game. Reply later.

[Steve]

Enjoy it Betts. Please realize, this is not meant to cause you guys any discomfort. I realize you guys are donating your time without any compensation whatsoever for all that you do.

[Urban Pioneer]

And you won't name a single one. That's fine.

To be honest, I don't remember who and when. We had one meeting that was almost entirely about the potential conflict with P180. Laura Story gave the P180 overview.

Why don't you look at the minutes of the meetings?

[Steve]

Alright. Was that so hard? So what you're saying is you're on the fast track because a city staffer, you don't remember who, told you that there's a deadline for Project 180 and it couldn't be slowed down.

[Urban Pioneer]

Nope. I am saying we were told "here is the Project 180 schedule". There is time to integrate the two projects easily if you happen to come to consensus.

This knowledge excited us and we put the time in to discover if there was consensus. There was. Getting AA off of "high center" by sending them feedback on their conclusions was also a major factor.

There was no practical reason not for us to put extra time in to figure it out.

We have recommended everything we feel comfortable recommending and are awaiting the hub and convention center decisions to make the rest of our recommendations in a 1B scenerio.

[Steve]

Now we're making progress. So a schedule was given. But no hard and fast deadline. No one said "you must pick some preferred routes before the other venues are chosen" because Project 180 can't be slowed down to incorporate the streetcars...?

[Urban Pioneer]

How is that any different than what has been told to you. Progress??? You predicated an article on ONE person's concerns when 9 other people were comfortable with their decision.

You suggested there was/is a potential conflict. We wouldn't have made a recommendation if we thought we might do the city a disservice.

Your article called into question the majority rationality of our volunteers and their decisions. This was based on 1/2 of a meeting you attended while there had been many meetings before that went unreported and seemingly a non-factor in your piece.

I realize you care about downtown, but I do not know what to make of the article's persuasion and the "conspiracy oriented" comments on this thread.

[soonerguru]

There is a big difference between being told "this is the schedule" and "Project 180 must be done in two years." Why am I being unreasonable in asking which city staffer is saying there is a deadline to get Project 180 done in two years?

This is just ridiculous badgering of the wrong people. You seem to have an agenda. Why don't you dig around City Hall and find out what the Project 180 deadlines are. It's apparently only a secret to you.

[Steve]

Sooner, there's a reason for my questioning... and it all goes back to an original set of questions I also never got answered.
Stay tuned.

[Urban Pioneer]

Sooner, there's a reason for my questioning... and it all goes back to an original set of questions I also never got answered.
Stay tuned.

Making our people and city staffers look like idiots to your readers endears you to no one but "anti-rail / let's put this off so that escalated costs prevent it from ever being done" crowd.

If you wanted to write about "persuasions" there are plenty of people who are actively advocating their own agendas with no regard to the potential costs and pitfalls to the streetcar project overall.


I would suggest to you to "stay tuned."