Streetcar

[shane453]

I don't think Midtown is very arbitrary at all.. It is a pretty clear destination to me as the the most developed urban district outside of CBD-DD-BT, and it's within reasonable range. It also has advantages because it is ripe for infill- significantly, there is very little NIMBY potential between 9th and 12th because it's already just parking lots and commercial buildings in varying states of repair.

[Larry OKC]

Interesting read. It was certainly implied/inferred what ever you want to call it that P180 had a definite requirement by the terms of the deal with Devon that it ALL be completed or substaintially so, by the opening of their tower (not just immediately adjacent, although understandable).

One of the inherent "challenges" with this slate of MAPS projects, is many are co-dependent. Hard to proceed with some until you know where other things are located and especially in the case of transit, one of the goals was to connect all the dots (and would think the primary dots would include as many of the MAPS 3 projects as possible). Chicken and egg???

[Urban Pioneer]

9 out of 10 of us think we have enough information and professional advice to proceed with "1A" recommendations. "1B" is recommendations for how 1A connects to hub 1st, 2nd convention center.

Many of us attend ALL the meetings or have informants.

We are completely comfortable proceeding ahead to answer some of the other questions in the article such as real cost
analysis.

[betts]

Well, that should get people talking.

I'm going to write a few things here, and probably others will have thoughts to add. I speak only for myself, as my interpretation may be different from others.

All discussions/decisions made by the committee have occurred with open meetings, which everyone has been invited to attend. All meetings have been opened to comments from visitors, many of whom have a great deal of knowledge and whose input was appreciated and added to the decision-making process. We very carefully considered the Alternatives Analysis committee recommendations, and, variations on this route, at least, were discussed with them in Committee, as several of the Streetcar Subcommittee members also serve on the Alternatives Analysis Committee.

As has been discussed here, we had two options: Work with Project 180 and potentially save a great deal of time and money or wait and redestroy brand new streets, costing time and money and probably irritating every person who has suffered through Project 180. It was our understanding that the second phase of Project 180 would be put out for bids later this spring. We have $130 million dollars, we hope, and every dollar we save by working with Project 180 is another dollar that we can use for construction of the actual streetcar.

We know what the three hub options are, and the streetcar can connect to them regardless. The southern portion of the preferred loop is primarily dotted lines and those dotted lines only indicate where we think/hope the streetcar may be able to go. I believe that it is really important to connect with the convention center, but how close that connection can be is in part determined by engineering considerations. Because that route is not determined, we have a lot of flexibility if the convention center is placed in a location not previously discussed. The route as outlined, even including dotted lines through Bricktown, is four miles. As Eric Wenger said, this can be altered, including shortened, either north or south, depending on budget constraints, which we cannot determine until we've had engineering cost estimates. We theoretically have an additional two miles of track and could have even more if federal funding is obtained.

We were charged by several city council members to make this more than a downtown loop, to try to reach out to area/s outside of downtown, and many of us felt quite comfortable with the Midtown choice. As I've said, it is close, but creates a destination for riders, which I also think is important. It opens up 11th and 13th Streets for development, could serve as a "Park and Ride" portion of the route, allows access to St. Anthony Hospital and Midtown shops and restaurants. It travels directly south of Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and offers the opportunity for people from those neighborhoods to access the streetcar, thereby increasing ridership far above a downtown circulator. It has the potential to extend north to neighborhoods like Jefferson Park and the Paseo, up to 23rd St., up Classen to the Asian District or thence over to the Plaza District. South, it has the potential to go over the Robinson Bridge to Capitol Hill. It could go to the capitol or the Health Sciences Center. Including those options was a big part of the decision-making process.

There's a "chicken and egg" or "Catch-22" issue inherent in our decisions. To determine costs per mile of the streetcar, we have to engage engineers. To engage them, we have to have a route for them to study. If there are problems, such as passing by the Colcord Hotel or going under the Sheridan Bridge into Bricktown, it is engineers, not us, who will determine that it is an insurmountable. So, were we to wait for the full 7 years of MAPS collections, we would still have to have a route before we could determine how much it would cost. Costs for everything, including engineers will rise. We already know that it takes three years for a streetcar to be constructed, so we are probably 4 to 5 years away from a line in the ground anyway. We felt it would be useful to have cost information as soon as possible. One of the companies who will likely be bidding on the system has both a usual catenary system and a catenary free system, both of which it could potentially bid. It should be noted that these are the only current and probably future systems available. There are no CNG streetcars, nor am I aware of any plans for them by any of the streetcar manufacturers.

As it is outlined, the dots connected by the streetcar include: St. Anthony Hospital, Heritage Hills and Mesta Park, Midtown, Automobile Alley, the Ford Center, the new downtown park, the Skirvin and Colcord Hotels, the Memorial. We will connect to the hub and the Convention Center, regardless. There has been discussion here about whether we can access Bricktown via the Sheridan or Reno bridges, and that question remains to be answered with interactions with engineers and the BNSF railroad. What we do know is that we can access Bricktown via the boulevard, as that bridge has yet to be constructed and will absolutely be constructed to handle streetcar traffic in both directions. So, worst case scenario, there is the potential to go there via the boulevard, with many options thereafter. So, we will make every effort to also give access to the Bricktown Ballpark and, of course, the canal.

Again, I think it needs to be emphasized that at best over the next few months, we will have engineers doing extremely preliminary assessments. There will be a convention center site selected by this summer and we will look at, within engineering constraints, how best to access it. But when Project 180's second phase starts up this summer, they have information available from us that should save the city and taxpayers money.

[Larry OKC]

Urban, is one of the primary dots, Union Station and by inclusion the length of the Park? Would be nice if the train station could be utilized for rail somehow instead of a pretty relic. Will personally be disappointed if it is left out but i understand that no matter what happens, it isn't going to make 100% of the people happy.

[betts]

I'm going to add that while I love the idea of the streetcar going by the new school, I don't love it enough to create a "crazy quilt" route. I think that mass transit needs to be as simple as possible and that ridership, especially for visitors, is dependent on having an easily understandable route. There is still enough flexibility in route additions to possibly incorporate stopping at the school, but it will have to be logical. Perhaps the person in charge of choosing the school location will consider the route as outlined.

Also, with all due respect, I have a "beef" with the end of your article, Steve.

Confused? Still curious as to “why the rush?” Veterans of the original MAPS program can at least testify they're not surprised — welcome to what they refer to as “the butchering of the steer.” Hopefully a nice steak dinner will follow.

My reading of this is that you think we're pushing ahead to make a money grab. But, because of the time constraints on the ordering of rails and cars, there is no way we can be anywhere but the middle of the pack, at best, as far as funding goes. In addition, the order of projects is going to be pre-set independent of us. This really was an attempt to save the city money and enable us to build as long a line as possible and had nothing to do with trying to get funding before other projects.

[Spartan]

Quick answer. Deep Deuce is dealt with in a potential later scenerio depending on the council or it is picked up on the "federal line" on the way to Health Sciences.

Same goes for the west side.

Sounds reasonable. I guess we can let the Deep Deuce thing go now!

I don't think Midtown is very arbitrary at all.. It is a pretty clear destination to me as the the most developed urban district outside of CBD-DD-BT, and it's within reasonable range. It also has advantages because it is ripe for infill- significantly, there is very little NIMBY potential between 9th and 12th because it's already just parking lots and commercial buildings in varying states of repair.

Have you met Rick Dowell? He's not between 9th and 12th, but close... personally I think anyone who is NIMBY on streetcar going near their property needs to have their head examined.

9 out of 10 of us think we have enough information and professional advice to proceed with "1A" recommendations. "1B" is recommendations for how 1A connects to hub 1st, 2nd convention center.

Many of us attend ALL the meetings or have informants.

We are completely comfortable proceeding ahead to answer some of the other questions in the article such as real cost
analysis.

I think I can imagine who this is directed toward...

[BoulderSooner]

Sounds reasonable. I guess we can let the Deep Deuce thing go now!



Have you met Rick Dowell? He's not between 9th and 12th, but close... personally I think anyone who is NIMBY on streetcar going near their property needs to have their head examined.



I think I can imagine who this is directed toward...

just an FYI .. but Rick dowell doesn't have any property in MIDTOWN

[Steve]

Rick Dowell owns property in an area some refer to as Rick Dowell land.
(read into that what you want)
As for Project 180 and Devon, the company has told me repeatedly they do NOT require Project 180 to be done within two years. I've not heard of any reason for the city to stick with seeking phase 2 bids this spring.

[Larry OKC]

Steve,

If that is indeed the case (that only the streets immediately around the Devon Tower need to be completed), there needs to be an immediate moratorium on all other Project 180 work until locations of certain MAPS 3 projects are set in stone.

[Urban Pioneer]

I attended the MAPS Convention Center meeting yesterday. No new locations arose since the last presentation. The consultants and the committee are comfortable with where we ended our Phase 1A recommendation. We discussed what was going on with MAPS Transit and it's implications in Phase 1B at length.

[Steve]

I'm going to add that while I love the idea of the streetcar going by the new school, I don't love it enough to create a "crazy quilt" route. I think that mass transit needs to be as simple as possible and that ridership, especially for visitors, is dependent on having an easily understandable route. There is still enough flexibility in route additions to possibly incorporate stopping at the school, but it will have to be logical. Perhaps the person in charge of choosing the school location will consider the route as outlined.

Also, with all due respect, I have a "beef" with the end of your article, Steve.



My reading of this is that you think we're pushing ahead to make a money grab. But, because of the time constraints on the ordering of rails and cars, there is no way we can be anywhere but the middle of the pack, at best, as far as funding goes. In addition, the order of projects is going to be pre-set independent of us. This really was an attempt to save the city money and enable us to build as long a line as possible and had nothing to do with trying to get funding before other projects.

You might be reading it that way. But you're reading it wrong - especially since I never wrote or spoke such words. It's this simple: Those who were around during the first MAPS witnessed similar debates, struggles, and it's not always pretty. But at least in the end for MAPS 1, the "butchering of the steer" was followed by a "nice steak meal." Isn't that what everyone hopes for in the end?

Now, that having been said, I had another obligation to be at yesterday, but I've gotten the presentation, I've talked to multiple people at the meeting, and clearly at least one new configuration was brought up, so the idea that the list is finite, done, and awaiting to be narrowed... that's not what I'm hearing.
I've not heard any fact-based logic for deciding routes at this time.

[Spartan]

Steve, how would you do a formula for deciding routes at this time or at any time?

[Steve]

I don't know.
But I've still not heard an explanation based in fact (city can't say they have to rush Project 180 because of Devon, because Devon says there isn't a rush) on picking preferred routes before knowing cost per mile, options for which rail and car system will be used, location of major venues, and scheduling of this project vs. others. Jeff seems to think he knows where the convention center will be located, or at least where the finalist sites will be. I can't for the life of me understand how he comes to that conclusion. I've not heard how waiting three months for some of these questions to be answered would be detrimental to the streetcar project.
I've learned to be extra suspicious when I see something being rushed when it comes to downtown development and public investment.

[Urban Pioneer]

I've gotten the presentation, I've talked to multiple people at the meeting, and clearly at least one new configuration was brought up, so the idea that the list is finite, done, and awaiting to be narrowed... that's not what I'm hearing.

A new configuration is not a new site. I asked the committee point blank if they thought there would be new sites (north) of where we decided to "cut-off" our recommendations. The members indicated that they hadn't thought of any and the consultant vigorously shook his head no.

The CC committee seemed to understand that the connection will be made in 1B scenario. Not only can it be made with where we positioned our 1A routes, but we are relying on them and their consultant, Populous, to tell us how integrated they want the connection to be.

[Steve]

I'm going to keep asking why the rush... why don't you want to know where venues will be first, what the cost per mile will be first, what kind of system you want to use first... Don't tell me it's because Devon is requiring Project 180 to be completed in two years, because that's not true.

[Urban Pioneer]

I've not heard any fact-based logic for deciding routes at this time.

It is our understanding that the city is contractually obligated to finish Project 180 on a deadline. If Devon as a company is ok with a moratorium, then that is between them, the city council, and the lawyers to modify whatever the actual agreement is to accommodate a delay.

All we know is that to meet the current P180 engineering schedule to be integrated into the late phases of the project, we have to decide the routes that we agree on now.

Fortunately, 9 out of 10 of us agree on the main route in the "greater" part of the P180 area. We also happen to agree on Midtown. So, we are recommending on what we agree while leaving a reasonable distance to make appropriate connections to the convention center areas being focused on.

The hub location is formally down to three sites. Informally, the committee is orienting to one due to rail-based inflexibility at one, and vehicular access to another. In any case, we feel that we can easily make connections to any of the three.

[Spartan]

The question is why the city is wanting to expedite Project 180. The streetcar committee can't do anything about that. So Steve, I just think you're pressuring the wrong people with questions on that...

Get Laura Story on the phone.

[Steve]

City officials long ago acknowledged they were mis-spoken on the Devon deadline. Are you telling me that a city official has formally informed your committee that there is a deadline to get Project 180 done by the time Devon tower is done and occupied? If so, tell me who it is.

[Urban Pioneer]

Why don't you want to know where venues will be first?

Answered above.

What the cost per mile will be first?

The only way to figure this out is to hire an engineer, give them a preliminary route, engineer a design, and cost it out through prelims or actual bidding. We have done all that we can with the professionals at our disposal. And the planners hired are really for the AA to have the set-up for Federal Funds.

What kind of system you want to use first?

The majority of the streetcar system (even proposed technology) run on the same rail in the ground. The infrastructure that P180 could integrate into their project will be flexible enough to provide access for all kinds of unknowns. And Betts covered this exceptionally well in her earlier post. Moving utilities doesn't completely have to do with electrolysis, corrosion, interference issues with utilities.

Rail is rail. Even if CNG were developed. The damn thing is still going to run on rail embedded into the pavement. Cost savings through as much integration as we can muster mean millions in taxpayer saving and stretching the MAPS dollar.

Don't tell me it's because Devon is requiring Project 180 to be completed in two years, because that's not true.

If you don't believe it, then that's for you to expose. We can only abide by the information that we have.

[Steve]

why don't you want to know where venues will be first?

answered above.
Not really
what the cost per mile will be first?

the only way to figure this out is to hire an engineer, give them a preliminary route, engineer a design, and cost it out through prelims or actual bidding. We have done all that we can with the professionals at our disposal. And the planners hired are really for the aa to have the set-up for federal funds.
I'll ask this question of people who are experts on transit
what kind of system you want to use first?

the majority of the streetcar system (even proposed technology) run on the same rail in the ground. The infrastructure that p180 could integrate into their project will be flexible enough to provide access for all kinds of unknowns. And betts covered this exceptionally well in her earlier post. Moving utilities doesn't completely have to do with electrolysis, corrosion, interference issues with utilities.

Rail is rail. Even if cng were developed. The damn thing is still going to run on rail embedded into the pavement. Cost savings through as much integration as we can muster mean millions in taxpayer saving and stretching the maps dollar.

I'll be posing this question to transit experts
don't tell me it's because devon is requiring project 180 to be completed in two years, because that's not true.

if you don't believe it, then that's for you to expose. We can only abide by the information that we have.

I'm not so sure I am going to take your answers as gospel. I'll pose them to transit experts.
As for the rush ... you can't tell me which city official has instructed your committee that project 180 can not be slowed down? You say you have information. Ok. Tell me who provided it.

[Urban Pioneer]

City officials long ago acknowledged they were mis-spoken on the Devon deadline. Are you telling me that a city official has formally informed your committee that there is a deadline to get Project 180 done by the time Devon tower is done and occupied? If so, tell me who it is.

Multiple city staff have provided us with time-lines for Project 180 in several different departments and at multiple levels. Since 9 out of 10 members feel comfortable with our route recommendation, who care's? That's why we were appointed. To make majority recommendations. Unanimous decisions are great, but this one wasn't. Most of us felt if it helps them integrate and we meet their schedule "wherever it comes from", then we should make our recommendations.

Besides, the council wants us to "stretch" the system out to areas outside of downtown. We can't do it unless we have engineering and "real" numbers to justify further recommendations.

Also, not having drawings has plagued our preliminary ability to obtain estimates on some of the new technologies that so many want us to explore.

[Steve]

You keep saying city staff gave you a time line that is expedited due to a Project 180 deadline, I'm asking you to tell me who it is. Or are you asking me to take your word that this is so?

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm not so sure I am going to take your answers as gospel. I'll pose them to transit experts.
As for the rush ... you can't tell me which city official has instructed your committee that project 180 can not be slowed down? You say you have information. Ok. Tell me who provided it.

I sure that you can find any kind of answer that you want Steve. There are lots of "experts" out there.

Regarding city officials, if you attended our earlier meetings, you would have seen us press them on Project 180 in public. We want to save taxpayer money, stretch as many miles as we can get out of the project through cost savings. We also want to minimize the disruption to the many downtown property owners, workers, tenants, and residents that I know you care about just as much as I do.

[Steve]

You won't name the person who imposed this deadline that is the reason you cite over and over again for the time line you are following.
I encounter this from time to time. That's fine. You're within your right not to answer my question. Just know that when a person refuses to answer a question like this, I just dig deeper....
Have a good evening sir.