Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

And I would also say that AA (Alternatives Analysis) is focusing a great deal of their energy in on the Health Sciences and Capitol areas. Presumably, if they continue their focus, we will be in a position to start to cover this area with Federal matching funds.

The "west side", that was explained to be of some concern in the Gazette article today, is really the "backside" of this line. While the two processes need to relate t one anther, they are for somewhat different areas with different prospective funds and objectives united via a master plan. "Protecting" the west side does not mean that it is part of the MAPS route. It means preparing for a possible route (whether that is MAPS or "the bookend" to the "Federal Line") to save money via reasonable preparations in Project 180.

[okclee]

Urban Pioneer....thanks for the reply and as always keeping us nearly up to the minute with the streetcar progress. I know it can be difficult to completely convey your message in a forum discussion, but you do a good job.

Well 1st, define "Uptown 23rd." Are we essentially talking about the Tower Theater?

In my original reply, I should have more been specific and never used the term uptown 23rd street, and I should have simply stated 23rd street between Penn and Robinson. If we see the very next phase of streetcar reach 23rd between Classen and Robinson this will be an excellent route.

Many of us think that a Phase 1b is orienting itself towards 23rd/Classen.

I really like the sound of this and 23rd street has been brought to the forefront as the #1 streetcar route after downtown / midtown. This now answers my question as to, why Paseo, Plaza, were being discussed at length with little discussion of 23rd street.

Urban Pioneer....again great job keeping people informed, these are exciting times.

[Doug Loudenback]

You know, I like to follow this thread, and I will ... but ... whatever the route(s), I just can't wait to see that 1st railroad spike, wherever it is get licked by a great big hammer (figuratively).

[BoulderSooner]

just some info from the AA meeting yesterday ..

St anthony is on board with the 11th st route over the 10th st line and it is looking more and more that the AA will move toward the 11th/13th st couplet.

Devon is concerned about the impact on the Colcord building by the street car vibriations .. they would like a broadway/hudson north south route but no one else seems to share that feeling

They are also pushing wireless streetcar option (and others are concerned about that as well) and that was discussed.... CNG cars don't exist .. the best option as of now looks to be cars with batterys that can go wireless for portions of the route ..

the AA is in argeement with the subcommittee on the robinson/broadway couplet from 4th-10th

the best info to me was the timeframe the AA plans for completion .. which is this summer giving them time to apply for 75mil in federal matching funds they recomend us only using 75mil on the 1A line of maps to apply for the 75mil in matching start up funds ... then using the other 45mil to build 1b option and be able to apply for other federal matching funds and grants ..

the mayor also made it clear that the sub-committee does not have to depend on the AA for their route .. but the 2 should share info back and forth

i'm sure that there is a lot more that i did not include

[Kerry]

Is 'AA' Automobile Alley or Alternative Analysis

11th to 13th is 848 feet. That is a long way to walk. That pretty much means that the only TOD will take place between 11th and 13th.

[Tier2City]

Alternatives Analysis.

Unless I'm missing something, I would like to see more documentation out there about the AA process, e.g., meeting agendas and summaries plus a list of the stakeholders on the AA Steering Committee.

[BoulderSooner]

Alternatives Analysis.

Unless I'm missing something, I would like to see more documentation out there about the AA process, e.g., meeting agendas and summaries plus a list of the stakeholders on the AA Steering Committee.

here is some info

http://www.letstalktransit.com/aa

[BoulderSooner]

Is 'AA' Automobile Alley or Alternative Analysis

11th to 13th is 848 feet. That is a long way to walk. That pretty much means that the only TOD will take place between 11th and 13th.

true but north of 13th is a development end anyway because of herigite hills ..

[Kerry]

true but north of 13th is a development end anyway because of herigite hills ..

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

[Tier2City]

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

13th is serving a very important purpose - immediate ridership. It interfaces with one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the City. Determing the route is a constant balancing act between maximizing future TOD potential, nuturing existing and growing development areas (Bricktown and Midtown) and ensuring the system is a succuess by getting as much all-day ridership as possible.

[BoulderSooner]

13th is serving a very important purpose - immediate ridership. It interfaces with one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the City. Determing the route is a constant balancing act between maximizing future TOD potential, nuturing existing and growing development areas (Bricktown and Midtown) and ensuring the system is a succuess by getting as much all-day ridership as possible.

this as well as providing a good link with the 11th st route at dewey and good extention possibilities to classen

[Urban Pioneer]

Yep and yes to Boulder and Tier 2. When you get beyond one block separation, it really isn't a couplet in my mind. It is a neighborhood collector/distributor. It only is proposed to be that for a very small area which is upper Midtown. It pretty quickly goes back to a "pinch" at Dewey. We are making a minor mod to the early map to depicting the pinch at Dewey so that the St. Anthony's stop has both Est and Westbound traffic pinched there for easy access. (So people wouldn't have to walk to 13th to catch it Eastbound.)

[Larry OKC]

...Such "Phase 2" extensions could be paid for with several scenarios- our bids coming in less and we have more money in MAPS Transit, money is diverted from something else in MAPS that comes in under budget, a future bond issue, or Federal Matching funds.

Anything is possible but don't count on other MAPS projects coming in under budget. History just isn't on your side. The original MAPS came in 47.75% over budget (NONE of the MAPS projects came in under budget). Even projects paid with bond money, the City stated during the 2007 GO bond, that projects come in an average of 8% over budget. Yet we only have 2.2% ($17M) of the MAPS 3 budget for cost over runs.

[Spartan]

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

13th is a good corridor because, and I don't know if you've been there or not, but it is a busy 4-lane road that feeds right into Classen. It gets pretty backed up from 5-6. Also, it has some good real estate along it that could make that TOD happen..and some good historic landmarks as well, like the Oklahoma Heritage Center, for example, and churches, etc. Beatnix is on 13th/Robinson.



So what happens here on Sheridan? Do they cross under? Does it get extended into Bricktown later? Does it turn around in front of the tracks?

How does the blue line come together, or is that not decided yet (I presume this is just being nailed down for the sake of Project 180, leaving those other areas open for further debate)? And as for the red line, would that possibly make more sense going in the opposite direction (if it switches directions, then it can share track with Broadway and make a complete circle)? Just in terms of where it meets Broadway, and the sequence in which the mixed-use Arts District is served..a sequence that should emphasize the mixed-use aspect of the Arts District, and not just its obvious cultural and entertainment venues.

[Urban Pioneer]

13th is a good corridor because, and I don't know if you've been there or not, but it is a busy 4-lane road that feeds right into Classen. It gets pretty backed up from 5-6. Also, it has some good real estate along it that could make that TOD happen..and some good historic landmarks as well, like the Oklahoma Heritage Center, for example, and churches, etc. Beatnix is on 13th/Robinson.



So what happens here on Sheridan? Do they cross under? Does it get extended into Bricktown later? Does it turn around in front of the tracks?

Spartan, read the article. We don't have information to figure out the cost to go under the bridge yet or where the front/back doors of the hub is. For that matter the Convention Center site either. We just know it is "over that way." That is why we are cutting off our recommendations before going into Bricktown. Is it Eastbound on Sheridan, Reno, New Boulevard. We simply do not have the cost/structural information to make a recommendation yet. But that little piece of Red/Blue on Sheridan is the same track headed Eastbound.

[BoulderSooner]

just a note from the Streetcar Subcommittee .. they approved much of their "prefered" (meaning the route they want pending further info) by a almost unanimous vote.


their "prefered" route is north bound on robinson from reno to 11th turning west on 11th, turning north on Dewey then back east on 13th to broadway then south on broadway to sheridan finially left on sheridan ending at ek gaylord

they also voted to "protect" a bricktown/hub/CC leg that goes on sheridan to mickey mantle down to reno down oklahome to the new blvd ... this is subject to change based on the hub/CC and bridge studies ect ..

[Kerry]

So 1000 people in Deep Deuce get left out? My guess is that Deep Deuce represent that highest concentration of people within 5 miles of downtown. Seem strange not to connect them.

[betts]

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers. The route as outlined is 4 miles so there may be additions as well, depending upon costs.

[BoulderSooner]

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers.

i agree and if the bricktown leg goes to sheridan and mickey mantle that is a place that almost everyone in deep deuce already walks to anyway ..

also i should have stated in the first post .. they see this "core system" being only around 4 miles .. so depending on the actually cost we would have 2 miles or so left to add on in MAPS3 portion of the project .. and with the AA study being completed this summer we have a possibility of getting 75 mil more from the FTA as soon as next year ..

[Spartan]

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers. The route as outlined is 4 miles so there may be additions as well, depending upon costs.

The undetermined route is a big thing, and I think Deep Deuce is a priority for streetcar, I understand that it just might have to be an expansion. Just to stress though, Deep Deuce has to be a priority. If Deep Deuce residents can be walkers, what's to say people in the Arts District or Midtown aren't walkers (hell, "Walker Avenue" goes through those districts). We're talking about the best route, and obviously Deep Deuce is a neighborhood that sticks out, and clearly it will have more density than Midtown.

That would be like drawing a map of TARGETS (lettering them A, B, C, D, E,) and then making sure that the line keeps an arbitrary distance of exactly 4 blocks from ALL of the targets, god forbid it be any more convenient than 4 blocks to the key destinations for ridership. You're supposed to connect the dots, not avoid them...

[betts]

Remember, though, you have to have somewhere to go on the streetcar. I bet you the majority of people in Deep Deuce will be more excited about taking a streetcar to Midtown than they will be to be able to get right on the streetcar without a walk. We walk to Bricktown. We walk to the CBD, I walk to 9th street, but I drive to Midtown. That's my perspective, of course, but I bet others would say the same thing. Remember too, that 13th street allows the people in Heritage Hills and Mesta Park direct access to the streetcar. We've got a lot of people within reasonable walking distance of 13th street, where they can pick it up to go to the Ford Center, the new Central Park, Bricktown. It adds a lot of ridership.

To me, the logical route for Deep Deuce is one going down 4th street to the Health Sciences Center, perhaps looping around to 4th and Walker. That would allow people to live in Deep Deuce and ride to work at the Health Sciences Center, take the streetcar over to the Art Museum, the Civic Center, La Trattoria. This assumes that the railroad bridge is not a problem, however. Everyone needs to sit back and wait. This is the core loop and it doesn't mean other neighborhoods aren't in the committee's sights.

[betts]

Kerry, we have dots connecting the new Central Park, the CBD, the Memorial, Midtown, St. Anthony's, Automobile Alley, the new hub, the Ford Center, the Skirvin, the Myriad Gardens. Barring the convention center being placed at the fairgrounds, the streetcar will connect to it as well. All things being equal, it will connect to the Rehawks stadium and points all over Bricktown. It has links to the south edge of Mesta Park and Heritage Hills, and passes immediately adjacent to Deep Deuce. I think that's a lot of dots, considering it's the initial loop.

[Spartan]

Remember, though, you have to have somewhere to go on the streetcar. I bet you the majority of people in Deep Deuce will be more excited about taking a streetcar to Midtown than they will be to be able to get right on the streetcar without a walk. We walk to Bricktown. We walk to the CBD, I walk to 9th street, but I drive to Midtown. That's my perspective, of course, but I bet others would say the same thing. Remember too, that 13th street allows the people in Heritage Hills and Mesta Park direct access to the streetcar. We've got a lot of people within reasonable walking distance of 13th street, where they can pick it up to go to the Ford Center, the new Central Park, Bricktown. It adds a lot of ridership.

To me, the logical route for Deep Deuce is one going down 4th street to the Health Sciences Center, perhaps looping around to 4th and Walker. That would allow people to live in Deep Deuce and ride to work at the Health Sciences Center, take the streetcar over to the Art Museum, the Civic Center, La Trattoria. This assumes that the railroad bridge is not a problem, however. Everyone needs to sit back and wait. This is the core loop and it doesn't mean other neighborhoods aren't in the committee's sights.

To be honest, I really loved the idea last year that downtown needed two separate lines to be served. You do have the Boulevard-to-Midtown line, and then a Bricktown-Deep Deuce-Core-Arts District circulator loop. That made a lot of sense.

I agree wholeheartedly that maybe there should be sacrifices (serving Deep Deuce) in order to have ONE line that goes from somewhere, to somewhere else. But why is "Mid-town" the arbitrary destination? Are we don't a downtown circulator system that will be expanded, or are we doing a line through town that "goes somewhere." Boulevard-to-Midtown is like trying to have it both ways, and I don't think the line that "goes somewhere" works if all you're doing is going from one side of downtown to another. The circulator system would seem to be the way to go if we're going to do as originally planned, and have this as a downtown starter system. If this is being expanded legitimately beyond downtown at first, then I think a line "going somewhere" works well.

The problem with that is that we don't have an obvious destination to go to from downtown. The best we have is the medical/capitol area, and that's nothing but 9-5 usage, so that would be a huge fail. We need evening and weekend riders, not just day riders. We don't have something like Utica Square located exactly 2 miles from downtown. We don't have a huge campus like UT with 60,000 students. We don't have a second downtown so close, either. So you have to make an arbitrary point that you're going to build up as the destination that the streetcar "goes to."

Why is that arbitrary point Mid-town?

[betts]

To me, and I am only speaking for myself, Midtown has as much presence as anything that close to the CBD. There are restaurants, there are a few shops, there is a hospital, there is potential for park and ride, there is access for residents of Mesta Park and Heritage Hills. There is a lot of potential for development, there is proximity to SoSA. The western part of the Midtown loop has the potential to extend on to Classen and thence to either the Asian District or the Plaza District. I like the Bricktown to Midtown concept, personally.

[Urban Pioneer]

Quick answer. Deep Deuce is dealt with in a potential later scenerio depending on the council or it is picked up on the "federal line" on the way to Health Sciences.

Same goes for the west side.