Level Apartments

[metro]

The brownstones didn't fit the price range that the design target was for. Those of us with the means to buy are probably a little older and a little more financially secure. However, I don't want to be running up and down two or three flights of stairs to go to bed or grab a snack from the fridge. And my crowd is the same. Build us some flats with amenities and we are much more likely to move. I have a place is a brownstone in NYC (Chelsea) and it is a great 2 bedroom flat. But here, there aren't those kinds of choices for me and my wife downtown.

Block 42 has flats, I know for sure at least 1 of them is a 2 bedroom. As betts mentioned, the brownstones have elevators.

[Rover]

I've been involved in building thousands of urban condos over the past decade and by far the overwhelming majority aimed at the more mature and financially sound market has been flats. So, everyone can believe that what they think is right, but the marketplace represents facts, not opinions.

[betts]

I don't know who here thinks they're "right" when what we are discussing is personal preference. I certainly don't. I only know that I am very glad that someone built row houses, because I not only like the way they look, but I like the layout, I like the look of the stairs and the cozyness of each smaller floor. My favorite hotels in London are built in rowhouses, and my goal was to recreate that feel as much as possible. I would still be in my house away from downtown if flats were the only option. But, if other people would rather live in a flat, that's lovely.

[jbrown84]

Yeah I also like the Brownstones because rowhouses are so uncommon (non-existant) in OKC. Variety!

[BDP]

So, everyone can believe that what they think is right, but the marketplace represents facts, not opinions.

I think the marketplace is entirely reflective of opinion. Consumers regularly overlook facts when making purchase decisions.

[redrunner]

Betts is right, I drove by tonight and indeed ground was broken today

Wow metro, thanks for telling us what we already knew.

[Rover]

I think the marketplace is entirely reflective of opinion. Consumers regularly overlook facts when making purchase decisions.

Huh?

All I am saying is that developers who build for the exceptions are usually small niche players. To my point, the multi story brownstones haven't exactly burned up the market, nor have the condos on the Hill. If you want successful projects you have to build what the preponderance of the market wants or build small projects. I doubt the real buying points in OKC are that much difference than elsewhere and the majority of the condo projects at the higher price points are flats.

[J. Pitman]

Yeah I also like the Brownstones because rowhouses are so uncommon (non-existant) in OKC. Variety!

I like the Brownstones, but I think the price point keeps a lot of people from purchasing.

[betts]

I like the Brownstones, but I think the price point keeps a lot of people from purchasing.

I think perhaps they should add on some stick-built brownstones and build them will less expensive materials, not put the cadillac of heat pumps and top of the line fixtures, etc, in them. Those could be priced closer to what people want to pay per square foot. But, because they run from 2800 to 3700 square feet, they're still not going to be really cheap. I actually paid less per square foot for mine than many people have at the Hill and the Maywood Lofts, but because it's so much bigger the actual cost is higher.

Now, what people don't think of because they don't look at the big picture, is that in the end they may end up paying more for less, because of the increased utility and maintenance costs of not having build-block construction. But, as Pete pointed out earlier, people rarely do think of the big picture when they're purchasing.

[wsucougz]

I think perhaps they should add on some stick-built brownstones and build them will less expensive materials, not put the cadillac of heat pumps and top of the line fixtures, etc, in them. Those could be priced closer to what people want to pay per square foot. But, because they run from 2800 to 3700 square feet, they're still not going to be really cheap. I actually paid less per square foot for mine than many people have at the Hill and the Maywood Lofts, but because it's so much bigger the actual cost is higher.

Now, what people don't think of because they don't look at the big picture, is that in the end they may end up paying more for less, because of the increased utility and maintenance costs of not having build-block construction. But, as Pete pointed out earlier, people rarely do think of the big picture when they're purchasing.

Gotta agree here. When looking at the "big picture," it's clear to me that the Brownstones are actually the best overall value of any of the urban living options.

[Spartan]

There is a difference with the up-front housing cost though, which is more likely to price people out. When people just compare housing prices, they won't go much further than $200,000 for 3,000 suburban sf or $800,000 for 3,000 urban sf. And utilities costs aren't going to make up that large of a difference, even though it won't be that big of a difference with smaller units.

[wsucougz]

There is a difference with the up-front housing cost though, which is more likely to price people out. When people just compare housing prices, they won't go much further than $200,000 for 3,000 suburban sf or $800,000 for 3,000 urban sf. And utilities costs aren't going to make up that large of a difference, even though it won't be that big of a difference with smaller units.

No doubt about that. I'm mainly singling out those who simply see the brownstones as being way too expensive for what you get.

[Pete]

Photo from today's Oklahoman:

[OKCisOK4me]

For us (those that can afford it) that live here, these are more choices. I don't think the developers are doing it for us though. I think these are being built for future companies moving here and the employees they bring with them. These will be done by the time the Devon Tower is done and they move out of their current headquarters and Continental or whoever comes in.

[betts]

There is still very little available for people who want to purchase a home downtown. If you count the total number of dwellings for sale in downtown OKC right now, it's probably not much higher than 50. I agree that the apartments are great for creating more density downtown, but nothing that's happening helps create a concept that downtown is a place you can purchase a home in which to live in the minds of people in OKC. Maybe it's just going to be a very slow process here and we'll need the people who have rented downtown and loved it grow old enough to consider purchasing a home downtown at some point in time.

There's an over-the-top comment in the DOK about the new Bradshaw complex that has one paragraph that still voices some concerns I have about almost everything being a rental. There is definitely more trash in the Deep Deuce area, no attempt to keep landscaping up or replace grass. I do worry about what the whole area will look like in 10 years if it's primarily rentals.:

"Your typical apartment complex goes from the developer who builds it and keeps the place nice until it is time to free up some cash for a development, then it's sold to the management company who operates it and bleeds it dry for the next 5,10 or 15 years. When the property is bled dry, a nice guy like Shashikant Jogani buys the place for pennies on the dollar and runs the place into the ground until the city steps in after everybody on the council is told do something about it or your butt is out in the next election."

Read more: http://newsok.com/new-apartment-comp...#ixzz1E9Rr3FVp

[Kerry]

The natural trend will be from apartments to condos. The developers tried to short cut that by going straight to condos. It doesn't (and didn't) work that way. In 15 years every current apartment in Deep Deuce will be condos, and a whole new set of apartments will be built that are taller and even more urban. Maybe someday there will be enough demand to go straight to condos, but that day is not today, and it won't be tomorrow either. That future is a long way off, although streetcars will accelerate that transition time along the route.

[Spartan]

"Your typical apartment complex goes from the developer who builds it and keeps the place nice until it is time to free up some cash for a development, then it's sold to the management company who operates it and bleeds it dry for the next 5,10 or 15 years. When the property is bled dry, a nice guy like Shashikant Jogani buys the place for pennies on the dollar and runs the place into the ground until the city steps in after everybody on the council is told do something about it or your butt is out in the next election."

Read more: http://newsok.com/new-apartment-comp...#ixzz1E9Rr3FVp

Elitism. Nice.

[betts]

I don't see hoping a development will be well maintained as elitism.

[Steve]

Spartan, that's not elitism; it's reality.
Exhibit A: Lyrewood
Exhibit B: NW 10
Exhibit C: Del City
Exhibit D: Quail Springs?

Now, do I agree with the commenter in regards to the downtown development? It's hard to connect his logic, which applies to the suburbs where we have seen decades of cookie-cutter construction, to what we're seeing downtown with unique designs and better than average construction. It's apples and oranges.

[Kerry]

Elitism. Nice.

LOL - why don't you tell us your thoughts again on who should be allowed to ride the streetcars.

[MikeOKC]

Spartan, that's not elitism; it's reality.
Exhibit A: Lyrewood
Exhibit B: NW 10
Exhibit C: Del City
Exhibit D: Quail Springs?

Now, do I agree with the commenter in regards to the downtown development? It's hard to connect his logic, which applies to the suburbs where we have seen decades of cookie-cutter construction, to what we're seeing downtown with unique designs and better than average construction. It's apples and oranges.

No need for a question mark with Quail Springs. Most apartments nearby are Certified Ghetto.

[Rover]

It shouldn't be a revelation to anyone that generally those who rent do not have the same pride of ownership as do those who buy. Apartment complexes in most cases are not built for long term residents and are income properties run for profit and not built or maintained as someone might their own home. It is economically driven. When maintenance grows out of proportion to the premium that residents are willing to pay then the slide begins. Most apartment residents are not loyal to a complex and when they have few belongings to move they will find the next good deal and move at the end of their contracts. It is a cycle.

[Steve]

Rover, to a great degree you're right. But there are some different dynamics at play when it comes to downtown apartments. To be blunt - it's a different population in terms of economics, etc.

[OKCisOK4me]

There are roughly 60 or so units where I live in NW OKC. The sign out front says condominiums but the layout of my place looks like an old apartment. That's besides the point. Several of the units are owned either by the people that live in them or are rented out from separate owners. A little more than over half of the units are owned by one person. It's really an interesting deal. My owner says the HOA monthly fees are a tad expensive but it pays for a lot of the upgrades we've had done lately, like redoing the exteriors, paint job, and of course, all new windows due to last year's hail storm (didn't come out of or raise HOA fees thank God)! Landscaping isn't the greatest, but is decent considering several residents have lived there for a long time. I've been in the place at least 5 years and know of or at least talk to more than a handful of my neighbors.

But yes, generally, places will not be maintained for the most part.

[Rover]

Rover, to a great degree you're right. But there are some different dynamics at play when it comes to downtown apartments. To be blunt - it's a different population in terms of economics, etc.

Yes, I agree and I should have drawn the distinction. As long as the developers understand that and build more quality projects and as long as the tenants understand they have to pay more then it will be different downtown. Otherwise we will just have high density problems in 10 years.