Could this be the perfect scam

[flatang]

For any of you blackjack players out there who have visited the Winstar Casino to have a go on their tables; you may have been surprised to learn of the .50 cent fee they impose for each hand played. On numerous occasions when the house was asked "why the ante"?, their response would always include something to the effect that "The State of Oklahoma mandates that we charge this ante". Tied into this statement would be words like education for Native Americans, schoolbooks or that the monies are to be used for promotional purposes and would therefore be returned to the players in giveaways, etc.
What strikes me as particularly odd is that nowhere have I seen in the rules governing blackjack by the State does it say anything about a mandatory ante. It does say that the State will receive a percentage of the net revenue generated but I have still not seen proof that the State directs the Winstar to charge this ante/fee to the players.
Is The Winstar deceiving all of its players and if so why would the State of Oklahoma want to allow the Winstar to use them as a scape goat? Isn't this really just a fee? Ante- isn't an ante part of the award won by at least one of the involved players? How does the State monitor this supposedly mandated ante? In order to do so the State would have to watch over each table, count the number of hands played by every player, over 19 hours, every day. This would have to be done to assure the correct amount of ante money generated is paid to the State. How much money is generated from this fee? On an individual basis the perception is "well it's only .50 cents". Stop and add this up, play 20 hands and it cost you $10. Below is an assumption based on observations meant to determine the amounts of revenue generated, realizing of course that the casino would only know the correct amounts. This is simply an assumption, actual number of players and hands played will vary.

7 maximum # of players per table
38 tables
266 maximum # hands per round

*5min. average time to play one round ( This to is simply a guess it could be moreit could be less, we had to start somewhere)
*Tables are open 19 hours per day (10am-5am)
*Lets say 18 hours of actual playing time to consider dealer changes, chip restacking, etc
*1 hour contains twelve 5min intervals therefore each table would at maximum capacity play 1512 hands per day (7 players, each player playing 12 hands per hour in an 18 hour period)
*Now multiply 1512 hands per table by 38 tables and you have the maximum number of total hands played under these criteria the total being 57,456
*Apply the .50 cent ante to 57,456 hands per day to determine the maximum revenue generated, that total is $28,728
*Because not all tables are always going to be used during the 19 hours open nor are they always playing with 7 players per table, an estimate must be used.
Here are a few calculations based on the theory above. The house generates the following:

Per Day / Per Week / Per Month / Per Year
$28,728 / $201,096 / $871,416 / $10,456,992 At Maximum 266
$14,364 / $100,548 / $435,708 / $5,228,496 w/ 133 players
$9,576 / $67,032 / $290,472 / $3,485,664 w/ 88 players
$7,182 / $50,274 / $217,854 / $2,614,248 w/ 66 players
$4,788 / $33,516 / $145,236 / $1,742,832 w/ 44 players


Think about it, why would anyone want to pay someone else to take their money. The odds will always favor the house, to now pay the house this additional fee is ridiculous. You are wagering your money against equal amounts of their money, in a game that favors them and you are paying them for this chance, stupid, stupid, stupid.
One theory I have regarding the .50 cent fee/ante and the reason for the possible deception is the Winstar is having you the player pay the State for the Winstar to have the right to offer blackjack. The $200 Million +/- of revenue generated from losing gamblers is not enough to pay the percentage owed to the State of Oklahoma apparently. The States cut of these monies is only factored on the table games after winners have been paid, the State collects nothing for the bingo style slots. Until someone can offer proof that the State indeed mandates the Winstar charges the ante I'm inclined to believe this theory. The fact that the Winstar has altered their explanation recently to now say that the ante is required by the State and half the money goes to the casino and half to the State suggests something is wrong here. In this country there is nothing wrong with a business making a profit for itself. Native Americans should certainly have the right and chance to make a living. What's wrong is it should not be allowed if indeed they are deceiving the public.

[Karried]

Interesting..... why don't you forward this to a news media source and see if they would like to do some investigative reporting? That might get you an answer as to why they charge this inflated fee and possibly uncover something unethical or even illegal.

Have you visited Remington yet? I want to go there soon and check it out.

[Midtowner]

I doubt the news media would touch this. Winstar and other casinos generate too much ad revenue.

[Karried]

That makes the whole thing sound even more sinister but, you might be right - what a shame - wonder if you could get a neutral party to investigate?

(Not that I have any idea of a neutral party - does anyone know of someone who might look into it?)

That is pretty bad when companies are above the 'law'. I wonder what the state of Okla who is supposedly mandating the charge has to say about it? I don't know enough about any of this but it does sound fishy....

[Midtowner]

They're not above the law, they are sovereign nations. They're not above the law, just out of its reach.

[flatang]

I'm in agreement with all the points made here. The revenue generated by the Winstar operation alone is mammoth. History has proven what can happen to an individuals judgement when entangled in these amounts of money. When resolution 712 passed the state of Oklahoma foresaw a windfall. Now a year later these expected revenues have not come. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that no organization would touch this, be it the state, the media or others they all stand to make money to as long as the casino management and investors don’t "cut and run" In an article published November 23, 2005 by Ronald L. ''Buzz'' Gutierrez a former founding member of the National Indian Gaming Association he says. "I have now become disheartened because Indian gaming is being attacked again. This time tribes are initiating the attacks because of their own reckless greed." It's a shame that the advantage the house has isn’t enough to satisfy. Top on their no comps policy and your getting screwed without even a handshake, or a hug let alone a kiss first. The only way to put the kibosh to this activity is to hit them the same place they hit, in the wallet. This would seem almost impossible especially if you went by there on a weekend and seen the amount of cars there. But if you were to poll people coming out of the facility you would find a large majority upset yes at losing their money but also equally upset at the way they were treated. You can only piss off a returning customer so many times before they are no longer a repeat. Wouldn’t hurt to educate them a little on the disadvantages their up against also.

[Karried]

Well, I have the perfect solution - Vegas Baby!

I'm there!

[flatang]

Probably lose all our money there to but the difference is they know how to treat a paying customer in Vegas, Sherevport basically anywhere Ive been they know how except this one. I recently saw an acticle that mentioned the Chickasaw Nation Governor Bill Anoatubby makes $300,000 and that they were predicting gamblers were going to lose up words of 2 BILLION dollars in there casinos in 2006. 2 Billion sounds to me like they are not planning on letting anyone walk out with the casinos money let alone your own. There has got to be a heck of alot of losing going on to generate 2 billion. I wonder what the impact is to the local economies when that amount of money is no longer around.

[treadwell]

This scam theory would not surprise me in the least. I have been to the Winstar and now try to persuade anyone who thinks about going to DO NOT GO. Personally from what knowledge I have of the fundamentals is that the whole operation is really organized crime approved by the states in which Native Americans operate especially any questionable casinos. The States let these casinos go unchecked by allowing them to monitor their own activity, basically taking themselves out of any responsibility or acknowledgment of any complaints.
Take the Winstar for instance, lets say you had a grievance and wanted satisfaction where do you go? At best you're going to complain to a jackpot monitor on the floor of the place or a drink server and that’s as far as that will go. In this case you might as well be speaking to the janitor, because there is no reason for these people to take your complaint to the next level. This particular casino has a real problem with their own employees. Not only does the casino show outright disrespect for the customer but they also do the same to their employees especially at these lower levels, just ask them. It appears only a few at the top reap the benefits of the casinos windfall and they want this done with no more than the smallest amount of effort and at the least amount of expense. A good business philosophy except when taken too far. Take comps for example an expected practice in the industry but not here. In order to receive a comp you have to ask a monitor who then has to go to a supervisor, floor monitors would rather go to the dentist then have to go to a supervisor to ask for a comp. If you can get to the next level "Manager on Duty" - "MOD" your lucky and will end up simply being lied too or dissatisfied with there response. The use of common sense is prohibited and the lack of it can be seen everywhere all at the expense of you the customer. After this level the next I don't know the MOD seems too only be a shield to confuse and protect the next level from you. I say this because MOD's seem to not have the authority to correct issues or answer your questions other than saying its policy. Ask to see any one with authority and the answer will be can not do. Try their head quarters and they just ignore you.
Does the State have any authority; my understanding is these Native American casinos are monitored by the National Indian Gaming Association (NIGA). Congress declared that Indian tribes have the exclusive right to regulate gaming activity on Indian lands if the gaming activity is not specifically prohibited by Federal law and is conducted within a State, which does not, as a matter of criminal law and public policy, prohibit such gaming.
I'm sure there are Native American casinos elsewhere that understand the concept of how customers expect to be treated for their patronage and provide games of chance without anymore advantage than is commonly known or does not require additional fees to participate. Because of the rules which tie the hands of outside monitoring of such establishments and the Winstar's location with the boarder of Texas and no other competition. The Winstar has a monopoly on this market and have decided to play by their own rules which apparently are created from greed and ignorance. The only good bet here is the bet that you will be aggravated by their rules at some point and will probably leave broke. AVOID this casino they have no respect for you the customer, your patronage, their own employees nor care to. Can anyone point out what good this establishment has done besides drain the local's wallet and evoke emanate domain to expand their operation on private landowners?

[flatang]

Thanks to WFAA News 8 for airing the story regarding the Winstar Casino's true character. Using threats and intimidation says it all go to WFAA site to watch the story I will post the transcript later

[Patrick]

I'd love to see the story if you could post the link.

[Patrick]

'Malfunctioned' win spurs Okla. casino questions


'Malfunctioned' win spurs Okla. casino questions


04:55 PM CST on Wednesday, March 1, 2006


By BYRON HARRIS / WFAA-TV

WFAA-TV
A WinStar casino in Oklahoma told Stanley Rosemond that his slot machine win was not valid because it was a machine malfunction.

Also Online Byron Harris reports
WinStar Casinos
official site
National Indian Gaming Commission
official site
Gaming industry expert Billy Gamble


While Oklahoma has become Las Vegas' competition by drawing in Texas residents to its 85 casinos and bingo parlors, Indian property gambling regulations have some questioning their rules and fairness.
An Arlington man said he thought his life would be forever changed when he was told he had won $11,289,874.74 after playing on a WinStar Casino machine that displayed the word "Congratulations!"
While Stanley Rosemond's life did change, it wasn't in the way he expected—and it was without $11 million.
Last summer, Rosemond went to WinStar, 85 miles north of Dallas. After the casino slot "big win," he was escorted to the cashier's booth, where he said employees seemed excited for him.
"The attendant inside shows me the numbers and says, 'Would you like to see what you've won?'" he said.
But after waiting several hours, Rosemond and his wife were taken to a large empty room and were seated before casino officials.
"[There was] four of them and two of us, and they're on one side and we're on the other side," Rosemond said. "We don't know what to expect."
The mood got less festive when the casino told Rosemond there would be no $11 million prize coming his way.
"He says, 'OK, your machine malfunctioned, so we can't pay you,'" Rosemond recalled.
Rosemond failed to spot a tiny warning label on the WinStar machine: "Malfunctions void all plays and pays."
That didn't stop him from feeling as though the casino should still pay up.
"You shouldn't have a machine that malfunctions," he said. "It should work, and if it doesn't, work the casino should stand behind it, because they are taking people's money away."
William Thompson, who teaches public administration at the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, is an expert in the gambling business. He said while slot machines can malfunction, the casinos owe it to their customers to pay them unless the player is cheating.
Las Vegas slot machines can clear $100,000 a year per machine, he said.
"You pay the player off," he said. "Your machine was wrong. You screwed up. How about a malfunction when the player's supposed to win and it shows a loss?"
WinStar Casinos, which is owned by the Chickasaw Indian tribe, declined to talk on camera to News 8.
In a written statement, WinStar said, "Mr. Rosemond is claiming a win bigger than the machine could possibly pay based on the type of machine, the denomination and the wager."
The tribe said the machine could only pay only $5,000.
Rosemond said WinStar offered him a series of take it or leave it settlements that started out at $800, which he turned down.
They subsequently offered Rosemond $1,199, which is $1 less than the casino would have to report to the IRS. They said he could accept it on the spot or leave with nothing.
"We didn't know what we could do," Rosemond said.
Rosemond said he took the casino's offer because he felt trapped. He tried to keep the one key piece of evidence from WinStar of his "malfunctioned" win—a card given to every WinStar player that tracks their identity and winnings.
However, once he was told he had won big, casino officials confiscated it. Despite asking for the card back, Rosemond left without it after the assistant general manager said the card belonged to the Chickasaw Nation.
"This is duress," Thompson said. "Any signature in those situations is under duress [and] should have no legal standing."
Kay Vanwey, who was hired as Rosemond's lawyer after he returned from Oklahoma, was stopped in her tracks when she discovered the tribe would not let her take legal action in the case.
"It is the Chickasaw Nation that makes the laws," Vanwey said. "It is the Chickasaw Nation that interprets the laws. It is the Chickasaw Nation that enforces the laws."
She received a letter from the tribe's lawyer saying, "All inquiries you make may be at your own personal peril and those people you hope to represent."
"If the intent was to intimidate me and frighten me, I certainly took it that way," she said.
WinStar is the largest of 11 Chickasaw casinos in Oklahoma, casinos that netted more than $91 million last year, according to tribal records.
Complaints about payment from Oklahoma Indian casinos are not rare.
Oklahoma Assistant Attorney General Bill Leader said he gets about a dozen complaints from gamblers at [Oklahoma] Indian casinos a year, but has no jurisdiction in resolving them.
Back in Las Vegas, Bill Thompson minces no words about the lesson behind this.
"You ought to have a sign on the border of Oklahoma: 'You're about to enter Oklahoma and gamble in a casino. Two things can happen. They are both bad. You can lose and you can win. You ain't getting paid,'" he said.
Last November, Rosemond received a summons from the Chickasaw tribal court in Oklahoma. He was the subject of a legal action, and in a declaratory judgment, the tribe said the case was closed.
News 8 asked the Chickasaw Nation how many casino malfunctions they have a year; they did not reply.

E-mail bharris@wfaa.com