Streetcar

[Tier2City]

My understanding is that heading east into downtown from the I-40/235 junction, the boulevard will not only have come down from grade by the time it reaches Stiles or so but must then be slightly below grade by the time it goes under the railroad tracks. This is to ensure 16’ plus clearances since the railroad will most likely have to stay at the same level. That does mean there will be no issue with clearances both for the streetcar itself plus its pantograph and the catenary (if that is the proplusion method). This will not so easily be the case for the rest of the bridges throughout downtown that were built as part of the 1930’s WPA embankment.

Much as I personally would like to see a line going straight east along Sheridan into Bricktown, everything I’ve seen for myself and am continuing to hear regarding the technical issues is making this less and less likely.

[Tier2City]

While talking about the new (railroad) bridge (across the Boulevard) I was wondering if Hutch could let us know a little more about what it will look like? Will there be more than two tracks, i.e., new tracks in addition to handle commuter lines? If the new intermodal hub is in the immediate vicinity of the bridge (two of the three Tier 2 Hub sites will be) will it have to be even wider to handle platforms as well as both BNSF and commuter tracks?

One thing I’ve been thinking about that the subcommittee can’t fully deal with right now until the Convention Center study is completed is how the streetcar should interface with the CC. Should the interface be a simple track outside the building or something beneath such as at Dallas? I sure would like to hear what OKCtalkers’ experiences and preferences are.

Ok, so nothing is decided yet on final locations for the hub and CC – though they soon will be relatively quickly – but a very likely scenario is the Hub at the 3 & 5 & 6 sites in the Hub study (Santa Fe plus parking lots on east side of tracks to Reno) and the CC on the Lumber Yard site (immediately then to the south of the new Boulevard). What kind of connectivity would there be across the Boulevard? Could you add a walkway to the new railroad bridge at that is at the rail level between the two locations?

Following on from that a possible streetcar stop for the (Lumber Yard) CC and the southern end of the Hub is an island platform in the Boulevard median. It could be linked at its western end by an escalator and elevator to the CC/Hub “walkway” and then by at grade pedestrian crossings at its eastern end….

[Kerry]

This is correct. The New Boulevard descends under the tracks. The railroad uses the bridge to go over the New Boulevard.

Thanks for the correction (UP, stdennis, and snowman). I was envisioning a huge hump in the middle of downtown. Glad that is not the case.

[Spartan]

An idea.....
A few years ago, just before the State's Centennial, I wrote an email to The Chamber of Commerce with an idea.

Here it is.
The large energy companies (Sandridge, Devon, Chesapeake) could sponsor a section or spur of a the streetcar line. The section of the line could be named after the sponsor. 1/2 mile spur into the neighborhood for 10 million paid by Chesepeake and we have the Chesepeake spur into The Plaza. Or whatever you can imagine.

Or several energy companies split the cost and they call it The OKC Energy Line.

Peace.....

Which is funny because streetcar directly competes with mass consumption of energy, but it could be a really good PR move for them. I mean really good.

[rcjunkie]

The biggest problem with Streetcar, Commuter Transportation and for that fact, High Speed Rail, is that it's Government Driven, not Consumer Driven.

[Meaculpa]

The biggest problem with Streetcar, Commuter Transportation and for that fact, High Speed Rail, is that it's Government Driven, not Consumer Driven.

Some things government should drive. Military, fire service, police service, public transit are a few. The market wouldn't provide these services because there isn't a profit, it's too costly and it is dangerous.

However, the "consumers" voted to tax themselves and allow the municipal government to move forward on transit.

Peace....

[Snowman]

Some things government should drive. Military, fire service, police service, public transit are a few. The market wouldn't provide these services because there isn't a profit, it's too costly and it is dangerous.

The streetcar will be dangerous, ahhhh.

[Meaculpa]

Sorry, I meant and/or

[stdennis]

I got a question about the street car and snow. Do the street cars still run in the type of snow we have had or do they need to be cleared first?

[Kerry]

That is a good question stdennis. My understanding is that streetcars are pretty much all-weather unless the power line goes down from ice build-up. I'm sure in places that get a lot of snow (Toronta and Oslo) they have away of clearing the tracks.

This isn't the best picture but you get the idea.

[Snowman]

I got a question about the street car and snow. Do the street cars still run in the type of snow we have had or do they need to be cleared first?

If nothing else, they make plows for streetcars, but that will depend on the model the city decides on.

edit: Ahh, too slow

[Urban Pioneer]

Most of the snow we have will be fine. I'll be honest though, I told engineers to factor out the "big hill" on 2nd in Deep Deuce. I used to live there. It turns into an ice sheet with cars sliding down and piling up at the bottom.

[stdennis]

K i didn't know. I figured plows on the cars would work or maybe a heated track would work too. I knew there would have to be a way just didn't know how simple thanks for the answer.

[Urban Pioneer]

I am re-posting this as we started a new page for reference...

For context, I am going to put up two maps made public at the previous committee meeting for reference. I have never put a map out on OKCTALK before.

The core map is what was approved as being "protected."

Several conceptual master plans were shown at the last committee meeting. We were all challenged as a "homework assignment" to produce "master plans." This larger area map shows one example of how the approved core area "protected corridor" might fit into a larger system that extends outside of downtown.

Please keep in mind that that this is my personal idea of what a greater system "might" look like. But all in all, three other maps and several verbal descriptions by committee members were put out there. They all followed a almost identical perspectives as it relates to the "core" area. That is how we came to the majority conclusion about the "protected" corridors at the last meeting. They were "re-debated" and solidified yesterday.

The "stub ends" as part of the protected core areas (particularly the Bricktown Core 2 Shore connections) will be addressed as we have more information about the hub, convention center location, and bridge reconstruction costs.

Attachment 769

I'm going to challege people online again. On the downtown route that we are recommending for protection, what locations deserve stops?

[Tier2City]

Some things government should drive. Military, fire service, police service, public transit are a few. The market wouldn't provide these services because there isn't a profit, it's too costly and it is dangerous.

Worth a laugh - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc

Seriously, turn conflicts are an issue and "median" lines may be more of a risk. We can safely assume there will be some "learning experiences" but emphatic advice from multiple operators is to have good insurance policies, contingency plans and simply spare car capacity in place (may not be your own car) for when one of your streetcars is out of service because of a "crash."

[Tier2City]

I'm going to challege people online again. On the downtown route that we are recommending for protection, what locations deserve stops?

Nobody seems to be biting for what really is the next major thing to consider. I will.

The no-brainer is the south side of the transit center on 4th street - essentially a cross-platform connection. For the Walker corridor the west side of Walker opposite City Hall would work very well. Then somewhere around the current Greyhound/Stage Theater. One would think opposite Devon and directly next to the Myriad Gardens would work, but perhaps the southeast corner of Sheridan and Robinson would allow a good transfer point between the northbound and eastbound lines at that point.

[Snowman]

I'm going to challege people online again. On the downtown route that we are recommending for protection, what locations deserve stops?

Are their any maps of the old streetcar routes that were torn out or paved over to see what kind of solutions they were using in the city core? granted the streets have been modified a bit since then, but it would be nice to see what was good and bad about that layout.

Never mind, a little bit more googling found some.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you study the map closely, you will see that we are proposing to "reinstall" much of the old system. That's how strong the old urban "bones" downtown are.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you look closely, even the "transit mall" is not a new idea. I had never noticed it before. We are installing something that must have worked well in the past. What a novel coincidence. The debate, the logic, the technical data... is leading us back to somewhere where we have already been.

[Tier2City]

This is a clearer map, originally from "When Oklahoma Took The Trolley" by Allison Chandler and Stephen Maguire published in 1980. More info on Doug Loudenback's blog at http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2007/09...ys-part-1.html.

[Kerry]

Here is good rule of thumb for OKC - If a street has a median it is becasue the streetcar ran down it. Of course, maps like that make me smile when I hear people say streetcars won't work in OKC.

@Doug L. - What was on the site of the Legacy and Sycamore apartments that would have the street car run on both sides of it? Was it the trolley barn?

[Meaculpa]

These maps are awesome. I agree with urban pioneer, we are redoing what has already been done.
Truly exciting!

[stdennis]

I kind of wonder what those lines would look like i you superimposed them on a map from google maps. making necessary changes for any changes in the streets.

[Kerry]

I kind of wonder what those lines would look like i you superimposed them on a map from google maps. making necessary changes for any changes in the streets.

I think Platemaker already did that. It is on one of the pages in this thread. Maybe he can post it again.

Here is a quick one just in case Platemaker doesn't have one. This is based on the second map above. There were other lines besides these that were eventually built.



Now I need to go find a retired GM executive so I can kick him the groin.

[Snowman]

A rough first draft of some of my thoughts

Liked the idea of having all the medical facilities on one line, for easy associate red with healthcare & OU.

Wanted to do a main loop like chicago, the green line would go clockwise around loop, all others counter clockwise around loop.

Classen is such an opportune street to be a core component due to width and overall bad access to the interstates for a road of it's capacity.

Since May is one of the cities best performing bus routes would be good to either tie into that and have on the line.

Try to keep streetcar and main auto traffic lines separate but near.