Streetcar

[Meaculpa]

Spartan,

Actually dedicated sales tax to public safety isn't unheard of.
In fact, there are several cities in OK that have them.

Even with the PS sales tax, the city spends an average amount in public safety.

Sounds like general fund relief!
How about showing contempt for corporate welfare programs that are not core city services.
Transit, public safety, water, parks, sewer, courts, streets, transit. These are core services.
If any money is being diverted away from transit, look to projects not on the list and you'll find your target.

Again, public safety isn't transit's enemy.
This forum's popular beliefs shouldn't be mistaken for reality.
This is kinda like a small group of activists with a common zeal.
That's great, but look outside your group. You'll notice a little out of touch thoughts with the typical resident.

Peace....

[Urban Pioneer]

At this point, I do not think that Pete White is actively trying to "sabotage" the streetcar. Nor do I think that he was intending to.

What I do think is that he over-reacted in public to a visual presentation that inadequately conveyed the "grand plan" that was/is in the process of being developed.

It was limited in what it portrayed and it perpetrated an idea that the perspective volunteers were pushing for something that had no "vision" or coherent depiction of how the conceptual core routes connected to other modes of transit.

It was a COTPA visual presentation that had not been formally ratified as a/the official proposal by the MAPS subcommittee.

While I think that it could have been handled differently by Mr. White, I think his heart is in the right place. While it caused some angst for the people trying to go through the process, it ultimately helped the process.

Ultimately, always be on your toes and concerned. But really, this all worked out for the best even though it was a bombastic performance.

I did not hear the first half of Dr. Shadid's comments. In the 2nd half of the program, he did say that while the streetcar might not be his preference, he understood that the voters "had spoken." He said this (I think) several times in different ways. So it seems that "he gets" that people specifically wanted a "rail start", to use his own words.

None of us are "naive," but you have acknowledge that this is a public, democratic, process. It's going to be messy until the rail is in the ground and the concrete is poured around it.

[Kerry]

None of us are "naive," but you have acknowledge that this is a public, democratic, process. It's going to be messy until the rail is in the ground and the concrete is poured around it.

...and then neighborhoods are going to be clamoring for it when they see the benefits it brings.

[Spartan]

Spartan,

Actually dedicated sales tax to public safety isn't unheard of.
In fact, there are several cities in OK that have them.

Even with the PS sales tax, the city spends an average amount in public safety.

Sounds like general fund relief!
How about showing contempt for corporate welfare programs that are not core city services.
Transit, public safety, water, parks, sewer, courts, streets, transit. These are core services.
If any money is being diverted away from transit, look to projects not on the list and you'll find your target.

Again, public safety isn't transit's enemy.
This forum's popular beliefs shouldn't be mistaken for reality.
This is kinda like a small group of activists with a common zeal.
That's great, but look outside your group. You'll notice a little out of touch thoughts with the typical resident.

Peace....

You are so wrong in every way. First of all, it's not general fund relief, because public safety still gets the largest chunk of the general fund in addition. Go look it up. Furthermore, this is not a small group of activists with a common zeal. During the election this place was literally overran by the nutjobs who only want OKC to spend on public safety (like a police state). Furthermore, it is hilarious to me that you want to try and tell me "public safety is not the enemy of transit." Why don't you save that for the public safety people? I'm not against public safety, I am just highly agitated by the unions and I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the election. I still feel that their shenanigans were shameful in every way.

And now they are continuing to spout their mouths. It also bothers me that you have basically the highest-paid cops in the region who spend soooo much of their time bitching for more money when you can look and see just how abysmal every other city service is. You can't do everything well. We're talking about people who's primary focus back during the election was to prevent MAPS from passing because they wanted that money. And then you've got the county cops who want a blank check to build a new jail because they screwed up the one we built in the 90s so badly. It's a nightmare. A very expensive nightmare.

[Kerry]

You know, that was the whole point of MAPS in the first place. The citizens were willing to pay a tax if it was set aside and used to pay for capital projects the City otherwise couldn't afford. Whatever funding problems the City has (or doesn't have) MAPS money is 100% off the table as a solution. This money exist for one reason, and one reason only. If you aren't going to use it for that then give it back to the people.

[Meaculpa]

Spartan,

The largest chunk of the general fund you speak of, is the average amount any city spends on public safety.

You seem overly concerned with a strawman the very few people who visit this site have created.
If you have any questions about the city budget just send me a message.
I'll school ya...

[Spartan]

OKC:


http://www.austinpost.org/content/ar...budget-dollars
http://www.okc.gov/budget/fy03_04/q_and_a.html

*To my knowledge, NONE of the above cities have a dedicated public safety sales tax in ADDITION, except for OKC, of course..

One of the things that also gets under my skin is that public safety got a 2% budget cut last year. The city made EVERY other department take an 11% cut. City workers who work hard in other departments get no annual cost of living raise for two years, maybe more, but police DO because they write tickets, and our society considers that a moral responsibility. It's just so %$!@ed up that some woman who has worked in the planning department for 40 years is going to be screwed over, while some moron that couldn't get into college but got onto the police force a year ago gets his raise. What are our priorities here? Why are police and fire union workers treated like holy %$#$ing cows? To me I see that, and I just think, "That's not right."

It's kind of like a local version of the Pentagon.

edit: I'll just say, I have no idea what this has to do with streetcar, but I'm just responding to mea culpa's posts.. I guess we're talking about what deserves city money the most?

double edit: Crap, I'm turning into Larry with charts and graphs and links and all..lol

[Kerry]

It's kind of like a local version of the Pentagon.

ding ding ding - we have a winner.

[Meaculpa]

OK Spartan, You need to do more research. Lets see if I can yank your chain again.

Denver, Baltimore and Seattle buy their fire equipment out of a Capital Fund that is not included in the public safety budget. Which would greatly increase their budgets.
Outside of that it all adds up to average expenditures.

And Spartan, you only need to look to your local suburbs to find dedicated public safety taxes.

Now, many of you complain about sprawl. Why is the OKC fire department one of the biggest fire departments in the nation? Because of sprawl.
How do you fund 35 fire station and 1,000 firefighters with a metro population of 1.2 million? St. Louis has about 600 firefighters and a metro of well over 2 million.
This is the problem.

And Kerry, borrowing language from you. The citizens voted on a tax (public safety tax) and expect to get their money's worth. Last I checked the fire department has the highest rating of citizen confidence surveys. Even after the MAPS 3 vote.

Ding Ding ding... Your turn.

Peace...

[okclee]

How many firemen and police officers can we fit onto the future Okc streetcars?

[Kerry]

Now, many of you complain about sprawl. Why is the OKC fire department one of the biggest fire departments in the nation? Because of sprawl.
How do you fund 35 fire station and 1,000 firefighters with a metro population of 1.2 million? St. Louis has about 600 firefighters and a metro of well over 2 million.
This is the problem.

And Kerry, borrowing language from you. The citizens voted on a tax (public safety tax) and expect to get their money's worth. Last I checked the fire department has the highest rating of citizen confidence surveys. Even after the MAPS 3 vote.

Are the public safety taxes not going to public safety? Is there talk amongst council members and candidates to redirect public safety tax funds to buses? Are MAPS III supporters suggesting that funds be directed from the dedicated public safety tax to cover cost over runs on MAPS III projects to ensure they are built as promised?

As for sprawl, I am all for OKC cutting about 60% of its land. If that results in police and fire layoffs because we don't have as much terrority to cover, then so be it. If Edmond thinks the answer to 'city utopia' is 500 sq. miles of sparsely populated land then let them try it for a while.

[Urban Pioneer]

How many firemen and police officers can we fit onto the future Okc streetcars?

124 (without their equipment)

[Meaculpa]

Kerry,

I agree with your points.

And I know one fireman who will be riding the streetcar.

Peace....

[Urban Pioneer]

Keep it real people. Somebody link the fire/police thread link and get the conversation back on transit project realities.

[Urban Pioneer]

I was looking at Tulsa. They are using the same consultant as us and are getting busy. I think that they heard the "Thunder" of rail cars in the future up the turnpike...

It's kind of funny. In their video they say Charlotte, Denver, and..... Oklahoma City lol

http://www.fastforwardplan.org

[Kerry]

Kerry,

I agree with your points.

And I know one fireman who will be riding the streetcar.

Peace....

OK, peace out - back to streetcars (one of my favorite subjects).

[Kerry]

I was looking at Tulsa. They are using the same consultant as us and are getting busy. I think that they heard the "Thunder" of rail cars in the future up the turnpike...

It's kind of funny. In their video they say Charlotte, Denver, and..... Oklahoma City lol

http://www.fastforwardplan.org

What consultant is OKC using?

Also, the other night you mentioned using wind power to generate the electricity to run the streetcar. I love that idea. No matter how expensive oil, diesel, coal, or natural gas gets - wind will always keep the same price - free.

[Urban Pioneer]

What consultant is OKC using?

Also, the other night you mentioned using wind power to generate the electricity to run the streetcar. I love that idea. No matter how expensive oil, diesel, coal, or natural gas gets - wind will always keep the same price - free.

Jacobs is the consultant. They did the Fixed Guideway Study in 2005 and have a local office up at Wilshire and Broadway Extension. They also did the Automobile Alley Parking study recently conducted. I think the Oklahoma Wind is as relevant as natural gas to be considered. They are both two of our most marketable and attractive natural resources.

[Spartan]

Jacobs used to be Carter+Burgess I think, so Kerry is probably more familiar with their old moniker.

Meaculpa--I am confident that I've proven my point beyond a reasonable doubt with links, charts, facts, and more than just the vague references I normally use (because I'm used to people kind of knowing the facts I'm talking about) but I will just say one more thing, and I will keep it transit related.

Transit and public safety are not eachother's enemies as long as the two camps don't start attacking each other..and in the last 3-4 years the public safety camp has attacked the CRAP out of transit and downtown, because it's undeniable they want more money. Now, we can disagree over whether the funding is average or extremely high, it doesn't really matter. You're dead-right that citizen satisfaction with public safety is very high. I also think OKC is a very safe city, to the credit of the police. The crime stats for OKC might be kind of high, but we all know there are issues with how we prosecute crime in Oklahoma.

I just think we need to get a LOT more serious about transit. You've got the city's highest-scoring service, public safety. Don't touch it, don't give it budget cuts (no matter how justified I can make it sound), and I don't think it is desperate for more money. You've got the city's lowest-scoring service, transit. Man, we have GOT to get serious about public transit. It's egregiously pitiful.

[Kerry]

Jacobs used to be Carter+Burgess I think, so Kerry is probably more familiar with their old moniker.

I just wanted to see what other transit systems they worked on. Is this them?

http://www.jacobsconsultancy.co.uk/index.shtml

[Spartan]

No, they're based in FW, not the UK.

[leprechaun]

If Tulsa is serious about building a streetcar, it would probably make sense to speed up the process for a high speed rail link between the two cities. This to me would be the final piece of the puzzle. Imagine being able to conveniently travel between the two cities using entirely public transportation. This is a great opportunity to take advantage of the close proximity between two decently sized cities, which will help both cities compete against larger ones in the region. The development that would occur as a result would be significant.

[Spartan]

If Tulsa is serious about building a streetcar, it would probably make sense to speed up the process for a high speed rail link between the two cities. This to me would be the final piece of the puzzle. Imagine being able to conveniently travel between the two cities using entirely public transportation. This is a great opportunity to take advantage of the close proximity between two decently sized cities, which will help both cities compete against larger ones in the region. The development that would occur as a result would be significant.

I agree. I'm really excited for Tulsa. The state needs to re-assert itself as one of the most urban states in the union, which it once was. We have great cities of all sizes with a ton of potential, and I think other states would kill for the chance to develop communities like Bartlesville or Enid, and certainly Tulsa. That town could be a huge hit with streetcar, it certainly already has the density.

I think there's great potential for a spill-over of good ideas, and I know they will certainly be taking advantage of all the hard work and information-gathering that Jeff and the rest of the subcommittee have done. Really, those guys could (and should) write a how-to book for setting up a transit system in a city. It could be a fascinating book. If Oklahoma really embraces streetcar, there's also the potential of Oklahoma landing a streetcar factory (a vital part of the process, since there are no American-made streetcars any more) which has the potential to be the next big auto industry. That would make streetcar easier, more viable, and more economically for all cities in Oklahoma, to have the production take place in our own state.

I believe they are currently putting the first (since they disappeared) American streetcar factory in Oregon? I don't think that's a random site selection, either.

[Larry OKC]

[img]...

double edit: Crap, I'm turning into Larry with charts and graphs and links and all..lol

Will take a compliment (even a back handed one) any time I can get it...LOL

[Larry OKC]

Are the public safety taxes not going to public safety? Is there talk amongst council members and candidates to redirect public safety tax funds to buses? Are MAPS III supporters suggesting that funds be directed from the dedicated public safety tax to cover cost over runs on MAPS III projects to ensure they are built as promised?...

Don't know about buses in particular, but according to the City's own yearly budget reports, those dedicated by law P.S. taxes ARE being diverted on a regular and yearly basis (even though they are expressly prohibited from doing so). The amount is in excess of $18 million/yearly being transfered into the General Fund. On the other hand, no such restrictions exist w/MAPS 3. As long as it fits into the very loosely, vague, all-encompassing definition of "capital improvement". And if you have read the definition, can include just about anything.