Oklahoma Factory Shoppes - I40 & Council

[circuitboard]

CC never was intended that way either. It's a niche project and never claimed elsewise. BOTH are much needed in OKC, the luxury market mores than the general stuff. Most of the common man stuff, people would spend their money elsewhere in OKC on, but g to Dallas for the luxury niche stuff.

Metro is completely right. Common goods are available all over OKC. But I have to travel to Dallas on a regular for high end goods, or shop online. I am more of an instant satisfaction type of guy, so I end up in Dallas more often than online. Nordstroms are you listening? Please open a store in OKC!! Ok I am dreaming.

[Patrick]

Nordstroms, are you listening? I have $400 to blow on one dress shirt made of organic cotton, which is far costlier on the environment because of the increased need for resources.

[stlokc]

I completely agree with Metro.

[stlokc]

Patrick, it's obvious you don't spend a lot of time at Nordstrom. But even if that was the kind of thing that could be newly available in OKC, why spend energy criticizing it? I don't like Cowboy/western wear, but I'm glad OKC has those options, the Ethiopian restaurant that I read about in the Oklahoman isn't my thing either, but I'm certainly glad it's in OKC. I want my hometown to be the kind of place where one could choose to shop or eat across the spectrum of what is available in the wider world. That means the outlet mall and Classen Curve. Would love to see a Nordstrom. Anything that keeps money in the state and signifies to the wider world that we're growing up a little bit is just fine by me, regardless of whether I would spend much money there. Full disclosure: I don't live in OKC right now, but I want my hometown to grow and develop.

[mcca7596]

While this outlet center will bring in a great amount of tax dollars from all over the state and beyond, it is luxury retailers that will help add to the quality of life in OKC. That will attract more people to consider living here if given the opportunity, which will in turn help create the demographics and demand for even more luxury retail offerings. A slippery slope towards quality. :-)

[ljbab728]

Thanks Larry. . .you got it!!

So sorry ljbab728. . .no offense intended; I was not attempting to be snide. I was pretty sure you were joking too. . . .if I thought you were serious, I wouldn't have replied at all. . . don't like trolls or baiters. Not sure what you meant about the # of posts, but I wasn't aware there was a threshold to post. . .serious comment or smiley face. Just because I don't have numerous posts doesn't mean I don't read (and think about) a lot of posts. Guess my ill-fated attempt at humor was mis-guided!! Rest assured, I'll not quote you again. . .(can't find the blasted smiley face icons or I'd put one here!!)

Thanks, foodiefan. It's always a challenge trying to figure out what some posts mean when you can't see someone's face while they're typing. LOL

[Patrick]

While this outlet center will bring in a great amount of tax dollars from all over the state and beyond, it is luxury retailers that will help add to the quality of life in OKC. That will attract more people to consider living here if given the opportunity, which will in turn help create the demographics and demand for even more luxury retail offerings. A slippery slope towards quality. :-)

It's really hard for me to imagine someone saying, "we're moving to OKC because they have a Nordstrom." And I really don't see how a Nordstrom adds any more quality of life than a Dillards or Macys. That being said, I'm all for expanding the different types of retail offerings in the market.

[Patrick]

Anything that keeps money in the state and signifies to the wider world that we're growing up a little bit is just fine by me, regardless of whether I would spend much money there. Full disclosure: I don't live in OKC right now, but I want my hometown to grow and develop.

So OKC has an inferiority complex? I agree with adding a Nordstrom to expand our retail options, but I don't by any means think it's necessary for us to "prove ourselves as a city." And for the record, I've pushed for Penn Square Mall to add a couple of extra upscale anchors, i.e., Saks, Nieman, Nordstrom, etc.

[onthestrip]

CC never was intended that way either. It's a niche project and never claimed elsewise. BOTH are much needed in OKC, the luxury market mores than the general stuff. Most of the common man stuff, people would spend their money elsewhere in OKC on, but g to Dallas for the luxury niche stuff.

What does CC offer right now that is stopping people from going to Dallas? CC is nowhere close to being that type of center. I think if you were to see okc's first ad valorem and sales tax check from the outlet mall, you would quickly realize which is the bigger deal for okc.

[Patrick]

What does CC offer right now that is stopping people from going to Dallas? CC is nowhere close to being that type of center. I think if you were to see okc's first ad valorem and sales tax check from the outlet mall, you would quickly realize which is the bigger deal for okc.

Yeah, I think you stated my thoughts better than me. It's not that I'm opposed to upsale stores, I just tend to not think Classen Curve is going to have that much of an impact on "perceived quality of life" or "shopping diversity". Maybe if it were adding stores like The Container Store, Crate and Barrell, Urban Outfitters, Restoration Hardware, etc. I'd think differently. I actually think the Tuscana concept had more potential to really bring big time upscale retail to OKC, but I'm not even sure if it's happening as originally promised.

[Rover]

Upscale shopping is a quality of life issue for many business owners and executives thinking of locating or re-locating their businesses and families here. It seems like an awful lot of the conversations here tend to take a populist anti elitist tone but remember there is a need for businesses here to hire people. One of the reason Austin has outstripped OKC is that it is perceived to be more progressive...a place where successful business people want to be and have their businesses.

So, short term the outlet mall, but long term the upscale. It takes both.

[HOT ROD]

CC is a start in the right direction.

Now, we need to fill it up and build/rebuild Nichols Hills Plaza as well as the nearby upscale districts so that they all feed each other and become the upscale retail engine for the state. ....

I think a hotel or two is needed in the immediate CC/NHP/Chesapeake area to keep/add to the shopping destination, preferably hotels with ground level retail/restaurants with parking in garages. ...

[Larry OKC]

How immediate do you want? Aren't there are 3 or 4 hotels right there at the end of NW Expressway & Classen? There's a Hyatt Place, Marriott Courtyard and Sleep Inn & Suites. The Waterford is nearby and I know there are quite a few just up NW Expressway there from Classen. Granted they don't have ground level retail etc (that I know of) but who needs it when you have Classen Curve, Belle Isle shopping center, Penn Square Mall, 50 Penn Place, plus all of the other retail and restaurants all along just that area of NW Expressway?

[Rover]

Very few hotels are also retail. Hotels are in the hospitality business, not landlord business.

Limited services, limited quality hotels like Hyatt Place, Courtyard and lower end Sleep Inn are not destination or upscale hotels where upscale shoppers come. Full service hotels with full room service, spas, upscale restaurants, valets, etc. are consistent with upscale shopping areas. If you are driving in to shop at Balliets you aren't trying to save $20. It is a lifeSTYLE issue.

[SoonerDave]

Very few hotels are also retail. Hotels are in the hospitality business, not landlord business.

Limited services, limited quality hotels like Hyatt Place, Courtyard and lower end Sleep Inn are not destination or upscale hotels where upscale shoppers come. Full service hotels with full room service, spas, upscale restaurants, valets, etc. are consistent with upscale shopping areas. If you are driving in to shop at Balliets you aren't trying to save $20. It is a lifeSTYLE issue.

Careful, there, because lumping Courtyard into the same pile as Sleep Inn is completely misguided, bordering on the uninformed. Calling them "limited quality" is simply wrong.

Courtyard caters to business travelers and provides very consistent, nice facilities, most with at least a basic workout facility, restaurant, and pool. Most Courtyards I've stayed in offer a business work area with a standing, free-use computer, fax, and printer available 24x7. Even though they cater to the business traveler, I have stayed at Courtyards across the country with my family and they are impeccably clean, consistent, and are of very high quality. Within this context of this thread, eg appealing to "luxury" customers, I would agree that's not Courtyard's target audience, but to say they're of "limited quality" is simply inaccurate.

[benman]

How immediate do you want? Aren't there are 3 or 4 hotels right there at the end of NW Expressway & Classen? There's a Hyatt Place, Marriott Courtyard and Sleep Inn & Suites. The Waterford is nearby and I know there are quite a few just up NW Expressway there from Classen. Granted they don't have ground level retail etc (that I know of) but who needs it when you have Classen Curve, Belle Isle shopping center, Penn Square Mall, 50 Penn Place, plus all of the other retail and restaurants all along just that area of NW Expressway?

I think Hot Rod is talking about something directly across from CHK and not a chain hotel like on NW Expressway. Probably something more boutique like and a bit nicer. A place that friends of those who live in NH would stay in as well as people who come in for weddings and stuff. Once NH Plaza is rebuilt it would be great to have a more upscale hotel in the upscale area of the city. Also, the shopping in NH plaza will be a bit different than Penn Square and the restaurants wont be a bunch of chains.

[Rover]

Careful, there, because lumping Courtyard into the same pile as Sleep Inn is completely misguided, bordering on the uninformed. Calling them "limited quality" is simply wrong.

Courtyard caters to business travelers and provides very consistent, nice facilities, most with at least a basic workout facility, restaurant, and pool. Most Courtyards I've stayed in offer a business work area with a standing, free-use computer, fax, and printer available 24x7. Even though they cater to the business traveler, I have stayed at Courtyards across the country with my family and they are impeccably clean, consistent, and are of very high quality. Within this context of this thread, eg appealing to "luxury" customers, I would agree that's not Courtyard's target audience, but to say they're of "limited quality" is simply inaccurate.

I am not saying they are not a good value, but they are considered Limited Service by the industry, and that denotes a quality level as well. They have minimum quality amenities (like through the wall cheap and loud air conditioners) and no full service day long restaurant, no room service (Pizza Hut delivering doesn't count ), etc. They are not destination hotels and upscale shoppers don't go stay in them on a shopping trip. They are business class hotels and limited quality. I know what their average key cost of construction is compared to full service and quality hotels. Most Garden Inns, Courtyard, etc. are 2 star, and maybe a 3 star while destination hotels are 4 or 5 star. Just sayin.....

[SoonerDave]

I am not saying they are not a good value, but they are considered Limited Service by the industry, and that denotes a quality level as well. They have minimum quality amenities (like through the wall cheap and loud air conditioners) and no full service day long restaurant, no room service (Pizza Hut delivering doesn't count ), etc. They are not destination hotels and upscale shoppers don't go stay in them on a shopping trip. They are business class hotels and limited quality. I know what their average key cost of construction is compared to full service and quality hotels. Most Garden Inns, Courtyard, etc. are 2 star, and maybe a 3 star while destination hotels are 4 or 5 star. Just sayin.....

If you want to differentiate about class versus quality, then I would agree that Courtyard is in a different class. I would disagree with any suggestion that Courtyard is somehow only of average quality. Compared to other varieties of hotels I've seen, I'd say Courtyard is of oustanding quality. Interestingly enough, by contrast, the same cannot be said for their Residence Inn brand, which is of decidedly varying quality - some excellent, some (well) below par....but I guess that's for a different thread...

[onthestrip]

I am not saying they are not a good value, but they are considered Limited Service by the industry, and that denotes a quality level as well. They have minimum quality amenities (like through the wall cheap and loud air conditioners) and no full service day long restaurant, no room service (Pizza Hut delivering doesn't count ), etc. They are not destination hotels and upscale shoppers don't go stay in them on a shopping trip. They are business class hotels and limited quality. I know what their average key cost of construction is compared to full service and quality hotels. Most Garden Inns, Courtyard, etc. are 2 star, and maybe a 3 star while destination hotels are 4 or 5 star. Just sayin.....

I dont think there is a demand for this type of hotel. I mean, how many 4 or 5 star hotels does OKC even have? Plus, everything you describe is offered by the Waterford, not but a mile away. I dont think you will find a hotel developer that would be willing to build a luxery hotel in that area.

[Rover]

If you want to differentiate about class versus quality, then I would agree that Courtyard is in a different class. I would disagree with any suggestion that Courtyard is somehow only of average quality. Compared to other varieties of hotels I've seen, I'd say Courtyard is of oustanding quality. Interestingly enough, by contrast, the same cannot be said for their Residence Inn brand, which is of decidedly varying quality - some excellent, some (well) below par....but I guess that's for a different thread...

There is a difference between value and quality. Courtyard is not high quality, though good value. It is what it is. I am involved in many, many hotel projects and I can tell you there is a vast difference. Courtyard is a moderate quality project. Any hotel that uses through-the-wall air conditioners is not a quality project. Those are used to save money on installation. The types of wall coverings, flooring, etc. is just average to slightly above average material. Occasionally, because of individual franchisees, you will see a better project with better finish materials, but rarely better construction.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but Courtyard is not a high end Marriott project, just middle of the road.

[Rover]

I dont think there is a demand for this type of hotel. I mean, how many 4 or 5 star hotels does OKC even have? Plus, everything you describe is offered by the Waterford, not but a mile away. I dont think you will find a hotel developer that would be willing to build a luxery hotel in that area.

The conference center hotel will be a Hyatt or better...that is if we want to compete for some of the better conferences instead of taking left-overs.

And, this city doesn't currently have even one destination hotel. Waterford is tired and no longer great. Skirvin is better. So is the Colcord. OKC needs at least a 4 or 5 star destination hotel to be considered a great city with appropriate amenities. I don't see it happening in Bricktown though. With Chesapeake's investment in the area around CC, they could justify a 5 star destination boutique hotel in the immediate area.

[SoonerDave]

There is a difference between value and quality. Courtyard is not high quality, though good value. It is what it is. I am involved in many, many hotel projects and I can tell you there is a vast difference. Courtyard is a moderate quality project. Any hotel that uses through-the-wall air conditioners is not a quality project. Those are used to save money on installation. The types of wall coverings, flooring, etc. is just average to slightly above average material. Occasionally, because of individual franchisees, you will see a better project with better finish materials, but rarely better construction.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but Courtyard is not a high end Marriott project, just middle of the road.

Rover, I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Your terminology is vacillating from "quality" to "class" to "value," and the assessments you are referring are shifting among building materials, site amenities, to floor finishes, to whether something is a "destination," then to whether it is a "high-end" Marriott project, so I don't know which term is at issue here. If you're in the industry and there is an internal pecking order within that industry, obviously it would be pointless for me to dispute that in context here.

When you say "high end," then yes, Courtyard is not "high end" in that it aspires to be a resort destination. No question about that. Its clear they have no desire to compete in that sector. But, within the market in which they do participate, they offer an excellent quality that makes them an excellent value. You are implying that value determines quality, and that's where you and I just don't agree. To me, that's the kind of thinking that has allowed marketers to slap the word "Premium" in front of a cup of coffee and double the price for it.

[Rover]

Rover, I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Your terminology is vacillating from "quality" to "class" to "value," and the assessments you are referring are shifting among building materials, site amenities, to floor finishes, to whether something is a "destination," then to whether it is a "high-end" Marriott project, so I don't know which term is at issue here. If you're in the industry and there is an internal pecking order within that industry, obviously it would be pointless for me to dispute that in context here.

When you say "high end," then yes, Courtyard is not "high end" in that it aspires to be a resort destination. No question about that. Its clear they have no desire to compete in that sector. But, within the market in which they do participate, they offer an excellent quality that makes them an excellent value. You are implying that value determines quality, and that's where you and I just don't agree. To me, that's the kind of thinking that has allowed marketers to slap the word "Premium" in front of a cup of coffee and double the price for it.

Sorry. I am in the industry. So to clarify....Courtyard is a very good value (usually). It is at the same level as Hilton Garden, Country Inns, etc. However, it is a limited service property and does not compete in the full service sector. They also do not generally use better quality materials or construction style...very average with both. Are they quality....in the sense that quality is measured by repeatability and value...yes. Are they a destination hotel...no. Generally regarded a business class hotel for companies somewhat on a budget. And yes, in some towns they may be one of the better hotels, but not in most cities.

[progressiveboy]

Maybe a Hotel ZaZa would be great! Charlie Givens, who is an OKC resident owns the ZaZa in both Houston and Dallas. Do you all think OKC is "hip" enough for this concept? Anyway, back on topic.

[okcpulse]

I think we need to give people zero excuses to go to Dallas for ANYTHING... Period.

Go to Texas for tattoos... Not anymore.
Go to Texas for lottery tickets... Not anymore.
Go to Texas for outlet shopping... Soon to end.
Go to Texas for strong domestic brew... Might end if things go well.
Go to Texas for high end items not found in OKC... Hope it ends someday soon.

I am sick and tired of OKC dollars funding Texas and DFWs economy.