Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

Well, I think we need to consider that our economy is relatively stable and will grow. By the time the streetcar system is installed, lots of things will have changed budgetary. COTPA for example, may not even exist in its current form.

We have between 4- 6 years to figure out all the different mechanisms that will finance the relatively small cost of the system. These same sorts of debates are going to be had with most of the MAPS projects as they are developed.

[LordGerald]

Well, I think we need to consider that our economy is relatively stable and will grow. By the time the streetcar system is installed, lots of things will have changed budgetary. COTPA for example, may not even exist in its current form.

We have between 4- 6 years to figure out all the different mechanisms that will finance the relatively small cost of the system. These same sorts of debates are going to be had with most of the MAPS projects as they are developed.

Are you saying that we are 4-6 years away from the streetcar system being operational? Seems like a long time from now...

[Fishstick1979]

Well, I think we need to consider that our economy is relatively stable and will grow. By the time the streetcar system is installed, lots of things will have changed budgetary. COTPA for example, may not even exist in its current form.

We have between 4- 6 years to figure out all the different mechanisms that will finance the relatively small cost of the system. These same sorts of debates are going to be had with most of the MAPS projects as they are developed.

Yeah, let us assume that the economy will grow. Forever!

[LordGerald]

Yeah, let us assume that the economy will grow. Forever!

How 'bout a subcommittee to the subcommittee that would deal with transit funding and operations?

[Kerry]

Are you saying that we are 4-6 years away from the streetcar system being operational? Seems like a long time from now...

I think the plan was always to get the route identified as soon as possible with actual construction coming later.

[Urban Pioneer]

Are you saying that we are 4-6 years away from the streetcar system being operational? Seems like a long time from now...

FASTEST generalized schedule-

2 - 4 month's for route recommendations to make it through council to implementation and affect P180
8 month's-Preliminary/Final Engineering/Environmental
3 month's- Bidding
1-2 month's- Evaluation/Selection
3 Years- Rail Fabrication/Streetcar Vehicle Fabrication
9 month's- Installation
2-3 month's- testing and fabrication


And that's just off the top of my head from what I know about what's out there. Add CNG or some such thing to the mix and it's a whole different longer ball game.

[Urban Pioneer]

Yeah, let us assume that the economy will grow. Forever!

FOREVER!!! Lol

[Urban Pioneer]

How 'bout a subcommittee to the subcommittee that would deal with transit funding and operations?

You would know about subcommittee's LG. lol Your probably right. One is probably coming once we get some of the first concerns out of the way.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the plan was always to get the route identified as soon as possible with actual construction coming later.

Yes.

Need to know where the hub exactly is (2 month's out). COME TO THE HUB MEETING TOMORROW 4-6 at OKC Community Foundation
Convention Center Location (3-4 months?)
Be nice to know where is the downtown Elementary. (3 month's maybe?)
A planned grocery store? (Never?)

Just a few things that might make us feel better about a final recommendation.

[Urban Pioneer]

I will be on the Gwin Faulconer Show, KTOK 1000 AM, around 8:35 PM about the streetcar.

Thanks to all those who came to ACOG's Hub Study meeting and provided input.

[Kerry]

I will be on the Gwin Faulconer Show, KTOK 1000 AM, around 8:35 PM about the streetcar.

Thanks to all those who came to ACOG's Hub Study meeting and provided input.

For those that are of towners, you can listen live at this link:

http://www.ktok.com/main.html

[Kerry]

Good job tonight Jeff. I know it is hard to respond on the fly when be asked questions but If I could offer one suggestion, when people bring up rubber tire buses you can respond that rail generates transit oriented development and buses do not.

Nowhere in the world does a hotel, office building, apartment complex or residential tower get built because it is on a bus route or near a bus stop. However, it has been demonstrated time and again in every city in the world with a rail system that those kinds of developments are attracted to rail lines and train stations. You did touch on it with the 'permanence' comment but I think it needs to be driven home with real world examples. To borrow a phrase from the Bricktown Hotel thread (can't remember who said it off the top of my head), we need to "re-urbanize the sprawl".

[OKCRT]

I really think that there should be a street car line going to the Meridian Ave. area with all the motel/hotels. Just using common sense would tell us that many of the out of town visitors stay in that area. A line there could service the fairgrounds and continue to downtown. In fact,that line should be very high on the priority list. How far is this area from downtown,6 miles or so? Just about the distance they are planning for in phase one. This area is a must for service.

[Urban Pioneer]

Good job tonight Jeff. I know it is hard to respond on the fly when be asked questions but If I could offer one suggestion, when people bring up rubber tire buses you can respond that rail generates transit oriented development and buses do not.

Nowhere in the world does a hotel, office building, apartment complex or residential tower get built because it is on a bus route or near a bus stop. However, it has been demonstrated time and again in every city in the world with a rail system that those kinds of developments are attracted to rail lines and train stations. You did touch on it with the 'permanence' comment but I think it needs to be driven home with real world examples. To borrow a phrase from the Bricktown Hotel thread (can't remember who said it off the top of my head), we need to "re-urbanize the sprawl".

Thanks. Yes, TOD is important. I wish I had more time. I was trying to speak to who I thought "think" the audience might be and it wasn't at the top of my list. Also, we are very "in tune" with what we think council's concerns are and are subsequently trying to convey that we listened.

[Snowman]

I really think that there should be a street car line going to the Meridian Ave. area with all the motel/hotels. Just using common sense would tell us that many of the out of town visitors stay in that area. A line there could service the fairgrounds and continue to downtown. In fact,that line should be very high on the priority list. How far is this area from downtown,6 miles or so? Just about the distance they are planning for in phase one. This area is a must for service.

Metro Transit did some feasibility studies even in their most far reaching proposal, a 'modern street car' would still stay mostly downtownish. One proposal had commercial rail end up going to the airport and suburbs and meet up with the street car at the hub.

[Kerry]

Thanks. Yes, TOD is important. I wish I had more time. I was trying to speak to who I thought "think" the audience might be and it wasn't at the top of my list. Also, we are very "in tune" with what we think council's concerns are and are subsequently trying to convey that we listened.

Just pray the clown (Dr. Edward Shadid) that was on before you doesn't get elected to District 2 in March. He wants to direct all MAPS money to sidewalks, buses, and the police/fire departments.

[Spartan]

This city spends way too much on police/fire already and absolutely zero on transit. How many of you knew that OKC PD are the highest-paid in the region? They make more than Dallas PD even. The average taxpayer cost per year of 1 OKC PD officer is well over $80,000. They certainly benefit from the absolute newest, shiniest equipment I've ever seen police have, save for maybe Edmond..

And they don't even give rides to pedestrians (who are otherwise expected to get ran over on roads with ZERO sidewalks) while they're out patrolling traffic.

[Kerry]

This city spends way too much on police/fire already and absolutely zero on transit.

Well, Dr. Shadid (candidate for Ward 2 in March) doesn't think OKC should be spending any money on convention centers, streetcars, commuter rail, or rafting parks until every street in OKC is safe to live on and walk on. He even made a point that the projects are not required to be built, implying that the money could be re-directed at the Councils discretion. He also seemed willing to spend MAPS money on buses. Needless to say, I think this is going to be the last MAPS style tax. Everything else is going to have to be single issue votes.

[Meaculpa]

Spartan....


The city spends what is is considered average on Police and Fire. Furthermore, the city does spend some money on transit, which is more than "absolutely zero"

We shouldn't exaggerate while making our case.

I agree we should spend more on transit. But public safety isn't the enemy to transit.

[ljbab728]

But public safety isn't the enemy to transit.

I don't know how closely you followed this forum during the leadup to the last MAPS election but that wasn't the common belief of most of the posters here.

[Spartan]

Spartan....


The city spends what is is considered average on Police and Fire. Furthermore, the city does spend some money on transit, which is more than "absolutely zero"

We shouldn't exaggerate while making our case.

I agree we should spend more on transit. But public safety isn't the enemy to transit.

The city does not spend average on PD and Fire. OKC's public safety is top-notch. Having a dedicated, permanent public safety sales tax that never expires is unheard of elsewhere, but here in OKC, we have it.

And what we spend on transit is effectively zero. It is a ridiculously small portion of City Hall's budget. Actually, I think we seriously do need to evaluate where all of our money goes, and what are our priorities. What do we as a city pride ourselves on?

My guess?

1. Public safety
2. Street re-paving
3. Downtown projects
4.
5
6
7
8
9
...
100. Parks and public spaces
101. Transit

And I'm just talking about civic priorities. And I'm not saying downtown's not up there, we all know it is.. but come on, I think anyone's kidding themselves if they don't think so-called public safety (cops, jails, and administrators) don't get the biggest piece of the pie already.

And we need to spend MORE on public safety? That's ludicrous. That is just astounding. Some people will NEVER be happy at the top of the totem pole.

[Larry OKC]

Well, Dr. Shadid (candidate for Ward 2 in March) doesn't think OKC should be spending any money on convention centers, streetcars, commuter rail, or rafting parks until every street in OKC is safe to live on and walk on. He even made a point that the projects are not required to be built, implying that the money could be re-directed at the Councils discretion. He also seemed willing to spend MAPS money on buses. Needless to say, I think this is going to be the last MAPS style tax. Everything else is going to have to be single issue votes.

And that's pretty much the way it should have been (at least the legal way). Those projects that are not like-kind are to be listed as separate propositions. Think bond issue format (Prop 1: Roads, Prop 2: Parks etc etc). As Doug, myself and a few others pointed out before the vote, there is nothing requiring them to do any of the announced projects. Shadid is correct, that the money can indeed be re-directed at the Council's discretion. Doesn't even take 5 or more, as long as a quorum is present, they only need a majority vote. But many on these threads insisted that we can trust them to keep their word. We will just have to wait and see.

[Spartan]

And that's pretty much the way it should have been (at least the legal way). Those projects that are not like-kind are to be listed as separate propositions. Think bond issue format (Prop 1: Roads, Prop 2: Parks etc etc). As Doug, myself and a few others pointed out before the vote, there is nothing requiring them to do any of the announced projects. Shadid is correct, that the money can indeed be re-directed at the Council's discretion. Doesn't even take 5 or more, as long as a quorum is present, they only need a majority vote. But many on these threads insisted that we can trust them to keep their word. We will just have to wait and see.

That's what's at issue here. It was taken for granted that the city council would not go against the popular vote, just present the projects, let the vote speak for itself, and make sure that the voters' intent was carried through. But now it does appear to be a very real effort to bait and switch being carried out and led by Pete White. If Ward 2 falls, that's bad, but I doubt it would happen. I think the other councilors are kind of just waiting to see it play out, waiting to see if they need to support the original proposal that was voted on or support a new direction.

I think somewhere along the line, somebody decided that voter apathy would win at the end of the day. Voters showed up just enough to allow them to get their hands on the money, and now they think they can do whatever they want with it now that there is no way the voters care enough to reinforce the original vision. At least, that seems to be the dominant thinking on the city council right now.

[dankrutka]

I love Dr. Shadid and understand Pete White, but they need to realize that the people already voted on this and this was one of the more popular projects. If they don't spend the money on these projects the days of MAPs are over in OKC.

[Larry OKC]

That's what's at issue here. It was taken for granted that the city council would not go against the popular vote, just present the projects, let the vote speak for itself, and make sure that the voters' intent was carried through. But now it does appear to be a very real effort to bait and switch being carried out and led by Pete White. If Ward 2 falls, that's bad, but I doubt it would happen. I think the other councilors are kind of just waiting to see it play out, waiting to see if they need to support the original proposal that was voted on or support a new direction.

I think somewhere along the line, somebody decided that voter apathy would win at the end of the day. Voters showed up just enough to allow them to get their hands on the money, and now they think they can do whatever they want with it now that there is no way the voters care enough to reinforce the original vision. At least, that seems to be the dominant thinking on the city council right now.

I don't disagree. Was wondering what had changed as I thought Mr. White was a supporter of MAPS 3 and if he had issues with it, he should have said something back then (and maybe he did in his own way)...

Ward 4 Councilman Pete White and Ward 8 Councilman Pat Ryan both said MAPS 3 isn’t perfect, but neither joined Walters in opposition.

"Some of us don’t like a lot of it, but the people get a chance to vote on it,” White said.

"I feel obligated to go ahead and put this to a vote of the people ... and I do that with some enthusiasm.”

Tried to find it on the forum, but how did White's Ward 4 end up voting on MAPS 3?