In process of "saving" Christmas, many aren't very "Christ-like"

[Doug Loudenback]

What's the fuss?

As for me, I say, "BAH! HUMBUG! Christmas is Christmas, no matter what you call it!" So, there! Commerce will do what commerce will do, and I doubt that commerce gives a flying fk about the religious aspects of the deal. For them, it's a time to make money, pure and simple. And, I really don't have a problem with that. That's how they, and their employees, make a living.

Now, I'm not particularly a religious person anymore ... maybe one day that will change. But, I'll damn well have my CHRISTMAS tree and I'll damn well watch "It's a Wonderful Life" again this year, and chances are good that there will be a Christmas Creche or two hangin' out in my house and I might even go to a Midnight Mass somewhere. Miracles can happen, you know?

Do I LIKE it that the stores are saying, "Holiday" instead of "Christmas" season? No. Am I gonna go ballistic if they do? No.

Today, and during all of OUR lifetimes of experiences, Christmas is Christmas. But, it might be good, too, to recall that many years heretofore it was the Christians who "stole" the season from the pagans and turned it into a religious occasion ... I mean, Jesus wasn't really born on December 25, was he?.

But am I gonna go to the stores to by my kids presents? Sure ... CHRISTMAS presents (or, as I sometimes said back in my "religious period", Christ Mass presents).

So, Bah! Humbug!

[Doug Loudenback]

Oh. I just noticed.

What's the deal, OkcTalk, with that label above the wreath in the Mini-Mall area on the right side of my screen??? "HAPPY HOLIDAYS?" Why not "MERRY CHRISTMAS"?

[sweetdaisy]

Scribe, that story was hilarious! That's one I'm going to have to pass along. WAY TO GO!

Oh. I just noticed.

What's the deal, OkcTalk, with that label above the wreath in the Mini-Mall area on the right side of my screen??? "HAPPY HOLIDAYS?" Why not "MERRY CHRISTMAS"?

You are too funny, Doug! I love that you noticed this.

[Doug Loudenback]

Scribe, that story was hilarious! That's one I'm going to have to pass along. WAY TO GO!

You are too funny, Doug! I love that you noticed this.

Actually, this WHOLE THREAD is kinda funny ... as in "crazy" funny, "funny" farm, etc. Whoever it was that said we at OkcTalk don't know how to have a good Christmas season at OkcTalk is CRAAAZY! :tweeted:

Does anyone remember the 7-11 radio commercial, probably 20 years ago ...

something like ... (disgruntled lady speaking) ... "Well, I bought my Christmas tree at 7-11 last year and we sure had a great Christmas! But, this year, I bought my tree somewhere else ... AND WE SURE HAD A PUNK CHRISTMAS!!!" ... or something like that. I thought it was a great commercial!

I wonder if they are selling "Holiday Trees" this year?

[Randy]

I know that I am new here, and I don't want to rock any boats, but I have to say something about the post that Scribe made. I know many of you thought it was a funny story, but I think it was very distasteful and disrespectful.

The foul language in the story was very offensive, especially making it look like it came from a Christian. I am assuming that since Scribe posted it, that the foul language in the story doesn't bother him. Making fun of Christmas is not a funny thing. Many people take Christmas very seriously, however, it looks like others don't.

No, Scribe, the story wasn't funny, it was very rude and crude.

[Doug Loudenback]

Hi, Randy, welcome to OkcTalk.

There's room here for everyone to express their point of view, just like you did above. And, for you and Scribe, both Christians and neither of you likely having captured the exclusive market for the truth, it's fair for you both to do so. Actually, even if one of you had done so, the same principle applies.

Personally, I enjoyed Scribe's post very much ... even printed it out to give to some friends at work.

To each, his/her own.

[PUGalicious]

I know that I am new here, and I don't want to rock any boats, but I have to say something about the post that Scribe made. I know many of you thought it was a funny story, but I think it was very distasteful and disrespectful.

The foul language in the story was very offensive, especially making it look like it came from a Christian. I am assuming that since Scribe posted it, that the foul language in the story doesn't bother him. Making fun of Christmas is not a funny thing. Many people take Christmas very seriously, however, it looks like others don't.

No, Scribe, the story wasn't funny, it was very rude and crude.

The story was meant to be provocative. I knew that those who would be offended were those who get hung up in the superficial issues (like foul language) and miss the fundamental "moral" of the story. As a Christian myself, I found the story to be a fairly accurate representation of the duplicity of many Christians today — you can substitute the foul language for bad attitude, rude behavior or any number of "lesser" sins that are often overlooked or ignored in the midst of our "outrage" at the world acting like the world.

Rather than being quick to take offense, perhaps you could take the time meditate on the underlying message and honestly examine if parts of it — any part of it — could be true. A religious spirit is quick to get hung up on the messenger and ignore the message — just ask the Pharisees.

[Doug Loudenback]

Well, yes, SS, I agree ... vocabulary has little (actually, nothing, IMO) to do with what's in a person's heart ... good or bad ... but don't forget that some (not me) don't see such things that way ... so ... when people see things like ...

I stumbled around with the rest of the shoppers. Everyone was in a daze, bumping into each other. I don't think any of us knew what to do, except just keep shopping, but I could tell everyone was thinking what I was. But I wasn't ready to see the DVD player prices, and I lost it.

"FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT OFF?", I shouted. (Sorry for the language. This war has screwed us all up) -- "FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT? WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CELEBRATING THE BIRTH OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR HERE, AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS A F**KING FIFTEEN PERCENT OFF?"

I knew then that I was among heathens, and I dropped all the DVDs and batteries and stuff that I had scooped up, and just left. I swear, some days I don't understand what this war is even about.

or ...

I had to wait in line about a half hour, but I passed the time by talking to the person behind me in line, who was buying a bunch of clothes and stuff. I let her know which things Jesus would and wouldn't approve of, because I'm pretty good at knowing stuff like that. I thought that the Christmas Tree sweater with the little lights that light up using a teeny battery was pretty damn cool and a pretty good celebration of the Birth of Our Lord, but that I thought the socks had too much blue in them and not enough green. I also told her to make sure to check that the little snowman figurine wasn't made in a communist country, but we couldn't remember if Taiwan counted or not, so I told her it was probably OK, especially at that price.

... they are offended ... their mamas/pappas brought them up in ways that made "form" more important than "substance". So, different people will take such kinds of things in different ways. Of course, you already know from previous exchanges here that I'm a pretty hopeless case and just enjoy good wit when I find it (examples, above) ... but others are not like me (or you) and there is, in fact, something to be said for not being intentionally provocative to those who don't see such things as funny, as I do.

Persuasion, as opposed to debate, considers (1) the audience and its characteristics and (2) how to best persuade THAT audience. Now, it may be that "persuasion" was not your object but that "debate" was.

In any event, I'm rarely persuaded in my own thought processes by anyone (you or Randy or anyone) effectively telling me that, "I'm right, and that's that", about ANYTHING, this topic included. When people tell me, "I'm right and that's about all there is to say about that", I tend to disregard their remarks as adversarial statements without any substance for me to consider ... the speaker's mind is made up and is not open to persuasion, and tI am of the firm opinion hat there are ALWAYS at least 2 (or more) sides to the substance of ANY issue.

Ohhh ... I see that I am again rambling very badly.

Let me just wrap this up by saying that ...

I've just screwed up my Christmas 2005 by buying a Christmas tree from my wife's grandson's Boy Scout Christmas Tree Lot ... and not from 7-11. I'm doomed!

That ... and THIS: OKCTALK: WHAT'S THE DEAL ABOUT "HAPPY HOLIDAYS" IN THE MINI-MALL AREA? Are you gonna fix that, or what?

My hunch is that all of us tend to take ourselves and our opinions MUCH too seriously ... that is, everyone other than me!

[PUGalicious]

Well, yes, SS, I agree ... vocabulary has little (actually, nothing, IMO) to do with what's in a person's heart ... good or bad ... but don't forget that some (not me) don't see such things that way ... so ... when people see things like ...

or ...

... they are offended ... their mamas/pappas brought them up in ways that made "form" more important than "substance". So, different people will take such kinds of things in different ways. Of course, you already know from previous exchanges here that I'm a pretty hopeless case and just enjoy good wit when I find it (examples, above) ... but others are not like me (or you) and there is, in fact, something to be said for not being intentionally provocative to those who don't see such things as funny, as I do.

First of all, Mr. Loudenback (I know you prefer we call you Doug, but I like the formal for you), please avoid references to "SS" when referring to me. My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...


Beyond that, I agree with you. Believe me, I have friends and family who "don't see such things that way", so I'm not unaccustomed to that viewpoint. Generally, believe it or not, out of deference I normally avoid such references around those people (except on this forum, of course, because it is a TALK forum). Even so, at times, I do push the envelope a little to try to challenge "style" over "substance." I also know that people are easily offended and many easily offended Christians particularly forget the concept of grace, mercy and love (1 Cor. 13:4-8), which includes not easily taking offense (keep no record of wrongs, etc.).

Persuasion, as opposed to debate, considers (1) the audience and its characteristics and (2) how to best persuade THAT audience. Now, it may be that "persuasion" was not your object but that "debate" was.

In any event, I'm rarely persuaded in my own thought processes by anyone (you or Randy or anyone) effectively telling me that, "I'm right, and that's that", about ANYTHING, this topic included. When people tell me, "I'm right and that's about all there is to say about that", I tend to disregard their remarks as adversarial statements without any substance for me to consider ... the speaker's mind is made up and is not open to persuasion, and tI am of the firm opinion hat there are ALWAYS at least 2 (or more) sides to the substance of ANY issue.

Again, I agree. But I have also found that not only is that true of the speaker's mind but also most listeners. I think that persuasion is about as effective as debate anymore. People are too polarized to listen to others' viewpoints.

Not once (and if you find where I have anywhere, I'll readily acknowledge my error) have I ever said or contended "I'm right, and that's that." Anyone who has gone toe-to-toe with me who is honest will acknowledge that there have been a number of occasions where I have conceded the point, acknowledged my error or changed my mind. I don't believe nor do I claim to be right; I am open to someone persuading me (through debate or whatever form of rhetoric) that I am wrong and that another viewpoint has more merit than my own.

Conversely, I will challenge others' viewpoints and present my own (often with supporting evidence, examples, facts, documentation, etc.) to stir discussion and thought on a topic. At times, I will passionately and aggressively pursue the matter to try to help others recognize that an opposing viewpoint might have some valid points and reasoning. Such is the case with this debate in particular. Notice that my challenge is toward those I share (in general) a faith with — i.e. Christianity. I recognize that I have a minority viewpoint within the American Church, but that doesn't mean that my viewpoint shouldn't be heard. However, because my opinion goes against what's heard in many pulpits and by some very powerful Christian leaders (not necessarily Biblically), I'm oft accused of not really being a Christian. I have a God and Savior who know otherwise, and that's all that matters to me. But I want to challenge Christians to examine how we act and what kind of witness that shows those we are trying to reach. Too many American Christians are more concerned about their rights than they are about their true mission (although they don't see it that way).

(Now you have me rambling, Doug.)

I appreciate you raising these issues... I'll be quiet now.

[Didaskalos]

Not that most will be surprised but I wasn't at all offended by the post Scribe - I thought it was quite appropriate considering the amazing amount of attention being placed on this "War". I, for one, wonder if Christmas will even take place this year considering the toll this War has taken on the holiday. All of these laws restricting my abilility to say Merry Christmas, use Christmas trees, display nativity scenes or make reference to Jesus being the reason for the season. The fear of what could happen to me if I express my religious belief is overwhelming. After all, this is an attack on my personal rights and we must stand up for our personal rights!

It is very easy to focus on the external (one's use of "foul language", smoking, drinking, the clothes one wears, their stance on one political issue, how they express pleasantries during the holiday) to determine their "true attitiude" as a Christian. In Jesus day, the Pharisees were experts in this very practice. They publically displayed obedience for the religious law as well as anyone in their day yet consistently missed the "spirit of the law". Christianity (as most relgions do) has always struggled with overcoming the external as the ultimate measure of sincerity. What was supposed to make Christianity different was Love expressed through sacrifice. Ultimately, that is what is missing from Christmas, Christians and the current climate that wants to mix politics and religion. That is why Christ appears to be missing more and more every year from this season - - it is just much easier to blame those pesky atheists and the ACLU.

Luke 11:42-46, "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone... One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

[Doug Loudenback]

First of all, Mr. Loudenback (I know you prefer we call you Doug, but I like the formal for you), please avoid references to "SS" when referring to me. My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...

Not a problem ... no implied attribution with the shorthand ... it just takes more keystrokes, don't you know? But why do you prefer, "Mr.", for me, Mr. Scribe? Or, is that a question I'd be better off not asking?!

But, I expect that you are right about that most people have their minds made up ... very polarized thinking, probably at both ends of the spectrum ... and that lots of people aren't open to persuasion. But, I'd suppose that some are!

I'll be quiet now.

Ha! I hope not! I enjoy your thought provoking posts! :spin:

[PUGalicious]

Not a problem ... no implied attribution with the shorthand ... it just takes more keystrokes, don't you know? But why do you prefer, "Mr.", for me, Mr. Scribe? Or, is that a question I'd be better off not asking?! [img]images/Smailies%2001-28-08/elmer3.gif[/img]

I often refer to those I have great respect by Mr. (and I sometimes say it because it makes you feel old.)



"S", "Mr. S", "Scribe", "PIA" (pain-in-the-ass) or "Jerk" are all acceptable references. SS is just about the only one (that I can think of right now) that is not.

But, I expect that you are right about that most people have their minds made up ... very polarized thinking, probably at both ends of the spectrum ... and that lots of people aren't open to persuasion. But, I'd suppose that some are!

No argument here.

Ha! I hope not! I enjoy your thought provoking posts! [img]images/Smailies%2001-28-08/spin.gif[/img]

Awwww, you brought a tear to my eye!

[MadMonk]

This part killed me.

This is OUR time of year, as Christians, to show the world what Christianity is, and that Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All isn't some hollow greeting card thing, but is the way we live our lives, and f**k them all if they can't see that. I, for one, will make sure that we understand about Peace On Earth if I have to hit every last damn greeter and fast food teenager and checkout person in America with a paper towel value pack.

My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...

For the record (and in the spirit of the season), I know that you and I don't agree on a lot of stuff, but I really do enjoy your posts and our arguments - otherwise I wouldn't keep coming back . I know I don't consider anyone here an enemy and I hope no one else here considers me as one.

Merry effin' Christmas you argumentative SOB!

[PUGalicious]

Thanks, MadMonk! I certainly don't consider you an enemy, just a very worthy foe. There are others far less gracious than your respectful disagreements with me, and I truly appreciate it. (Look at me getting all warm and fuzzy with MadMonk!!! I've been overcome with the spirit of the season!)

Merry Christmahanukwanzikah!

[sweetdaisy]

You guys and your warm fuzzies are going to make me sick.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you!

[Doug Loudenback]

You guys and your warm fuzzies are going to make me sick.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you!

Right on, SweetDaisy! Bah! Humbug! And what about the "Happy Holidays" label in the Mini-Mall area. DOESN'T ANYONE CARE?!?

[PUGalicious]

And what about the "Happy Holidays" label in the Mini-Mall area. DOESN'T ANYONE CARE?!?

I think it's an ACLU conspiracy....

[Karried]

Group Hug!!

[Curt]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Doug Loudenback]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Well, I guess that you guys are just not going to give in on my Bah! Humbug! stuff what with the "group hugs" and all. I give up. You win. Let's all have a ...

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

... and then I'll tell you about my 7-11 Christmas tree ... or not. Love you all! Good will to all persons! Joy to the World! And to all a good night!

[Curt]

Well, I guess that you guys are just not going to give in on my Bah! Humbug! stuff. I give up. You win.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Your no fun Doug bah humbug ...

[Doug Loudenback]

Your no fun Doug bah humbug ...

The Christians made me do it. It's not my fault.
I stuck with Bah Humbug(!) for as long as I coud last ... but ... I was overcome ... and now I am a convert.

Merry Christmas, or else.

Of course, I'm kidding, again, but no more in this post. I guess it's time for me to be serious, since I'm moved to do so at this moment.

I love Christmas. It's the very best time of the year!

For some of you, it is the fondest and most gentle time to be close to your religious savior. I think, if I remember correctly, I would have said the same many years hence.

For me, today, its the fondest and dearest time for me to be close to my family, my wonderful wife (now 21 years), my sweet baby daughter (32 now) and baby boy son (38 now), and various grandchildren and step-siblings, etc., thown between the cracks, and to consider and be overcome by the imponderable, pervasive and overwhelming force ... love ... the glue that makes all of those who are inclined to be so bound to each other be voluntarily and gratefully bound into that effective union of closely held-togehter affectionate beings, souls, if you you want. We would not like it if there was a breach in the unit and we would be pained by such a tear. We value the "bond", which, in another way of looking at it, we value in some manner that we are "not free" since we do not want to be. This makes no logical sense, does it? I do not understand it and I do not need to, since I accept and value it. What is the source of this sense? God? Maybe. Jesus? Maybe? Something else? Maybe. But, certainly the baby Jesus in all of his innosence, and all of the perhaps egrandized (or not) biblical events surrounding his birth, make it easy enough for anyone to focus on the purity, and value, of love. So, yes, even for an almost-not Chrstian like me, Jesus is central to my point of view but in a less doctrinare way than I once held to be true.

Chirstmas is also a time to ponder and wonder in a quiet and gentle way ... beginning centrist and going outward ... how wonderful a thing it is to love, and to be loved ... by and toward those who are most closely entwined with you ... and to consider how I might better love those who I call my own ... and how I might better love those beyond them, who are also my brothers and sisters ... and how it is that that sweet baby Jesus might imact the choices I make in that respect.

These are quite a few "religous" things for me to say, aren't they, in my "non-religious period"?

Love you all, and I wish you all a wonderful Christmas and the peace and warmth of the good hearts that all of us truly do have. I hope that you enjoy the warmth, and enjoy the peace, of the season, which for some of us is heightend and enhanced this one time every year, if for no reason than we think about it a little more than we do at other times. If that's so, that makes the value of this time all the greater. I have no "scripture quotations" or other "authoritative sources" for this point of view ... all I am able to do is to convey the thoughts and feelings of one single person, who claims no authority, but who thinks about Christmas when it comes each year, and what it means to me.

[Doug Loudenback]

I'd made a few corrections/changes to the above post but my "editing" time expried. Nothing particurlary important. That's life!

[PUGalicious]

Very nice post, Doug.

[fromdust]

[QUOTE=okieopus]Thanks Scribe.



The "attack on Christmas" bloviating morons like Bill O'Rielly made it up!

i know he totally made it up! like he would say put down the kool aid. i'd like to see you prove that he made it up. youve been reading too many news papers, man.


every one have a happy ramahaunakwanzmas!