What do YOU think the purpose of the Maps3 Streetcar system is?

[Larry OKC]

Urban


I applaud you and your groups efforts to get done what has been accomplished so far.

Thank you for your response and take on it, I am not disputing anything you are saying about the the polling info you saw (just that from all appearances, the Mayor never used/cited it). He did indeed mention "a start" in dealing with the Mass transit issue as MAPS 3 approached and IMO was setting it up to be a piecemeal approach rather than everything essentially at once approach. Probably easier to sell to the voters. BUT on the other hand, what are the voters expecting out of this when MAPS 3 is finished? Functional but incomplete projects (much like the Ford) that are going to require substantial, ongoing expenditures? Not suggesting this is necessarily the case with the Streetcars as after MAPS 3 was announced, it was clear that it was a starter system, but more along the lines of the Convention Center where the according to the speaker the City brought in said they needed the expanded version of the C.C. today, much less what their needs will be 10 years from now when the C.C. is open. Hardly any mention of the probable public/private partnership required to get the C.C. hotel built (according to the ULI info, the public part could easily be in the $50M area). Don't get Spatan started on the $30M of the C.C. budget that has been promised to OG&E for the substation (no matter where the C.C. ends up)...LOL

There were many areas that almost lead to MAPS 3 being defeated and the C.C. seems to have been at the top of the list when according to the scientific polling it never polled above 50% approval. As the most expensive item in the announced list, it certainly contributed. As far as the fear tactics about cuts to public safety, despite promises by the Mayor that it would not happen, that not only would there not be any cuts, but personnel would be added, ended up not being the case.

The have had several years to work out the regional aspects with other communities etc as the first mention of MAPS 3 was in 2003 shortly after MAPS for Kids passed (2001). Humphreys was Mayor and Burns Hargis was head of the Chamber. Hargis supported a Streetcar system to somehow be built (more in lines with the one planned with the original MAPS that would go from Bricktown to the Fairgrounds and to the Meridian corridor) by the Centennial (difficult to do since MAPS for Kids would have still been in effect and a MAPS 3 would have been an obvious tax increase). Humphreys was cool to the idea. But I digress...the point is, there has been plenty of time to get all of the ducks in a row with surrounding communities and an educational campaign. They knew well in advance when the MAPS for Kids tax would end (even got a 15 month extension of time by the Ford tax). I lay that fault back at the City Leaders collective feet.

[Larry OKC]

Using your logic Larry, the downtown Public Library, the Civic Center, the Arena, the ballpark.....in other words, virtually every existing MAPS project only benefits downtown. ...

DING DING DING, we have a winner!

Precisely and that perception was one of the main points that almost lead to the original MAPS being defeated, that it was only/primarily benefiting downtown. I still don't buy the concept that DT belongs to everyone. While it may have been true in the past, I don't think that is the case any more. When my parents were growing up (and we still had the extensive trolley system), DT was THE place to shop etc. Not the case anymore.

They fixed the DT only perception with MAPS for Kids and included at least $1M in renovations to EVERY school in the OKC school district and a few brand new schools to boot. Also included 30% of the funds to go to other school districts (where they live in OKC but are in a different school district). Brilliant vote getter IMO

With MAPS 3, they tried to mesh the two (downtown combined with projects built elsewhere like Trails, Sidewalks and the Senior Aquatic Centers).

To get back to the thread topic, I think the MAPS 3 Streetcars should be multi-faceted in purpose as the Mayor said (sorry, don't have the exact quote handy so am doing it from memory). It shouldn't be just a route for tourists (but that element is included, so it must run to the new C.C., the Park and as many of the other MAPS 3 projects as possible, Bricktown along with the Memorial and other DT areas of interest to out of towners. It needs to serve existing businesses and encourage development to areas that need infill. Now how you do all of that with just 5 to 6 miles of track is the challenge.

[kevinpate]

... Now how you do all of that with just 5 to 6 miles of track is the challenge.

Can't be done. End of story. Collectively the powers that be can take the first step toward a long range goal of a comprehensive streetcar + other modes of transit plan.

[Larry OKC]

Will let you break the news to the Mayor, that's what he said he wanted to do with the 5 to 6 miles.

[kevinpate]

Will let you break the news to the Mayor, that's what he said he wanted to do with the 5 to 6 miles.

Nah, I'll pass. First, not my mayor. Second, being a mayor, he says lots of things. Correcting politico speak is like eating pistachios. It's rather hard to stop at just one.

[betts]

DING DING DING, we have a winner!

Precisely and that perception was one of the main points that almost lead to the original MAPS being defeated, that it was only/primarily benefiting downtown. I still don't buy the concept that DT belongs to everyone. While it may have been true in the past, I don't think that is the case any more. When my parents were growing up (and we still had the extensive trolley system), DT was THE place to shop etc. Not the case anymore.

I think you'll find a lot of people disagree with you. Downtown doesn't have to be THE place to shop for it to belong to everyone. It just needs to have a little something that everyone can either be proud of, want to show visitors or enjoy spending some time in. When I see people sledding at the ballpark, skating at the ice rink, walking out of Thunder games cheering, going to Barons games in their jerseys, walking into the public library, going to the Art Museum for brunch, to see a movie, to see an exhibit or to socialize on the rooftop, eating at restaurants throughout Bricktown and the CBD, riding a canal boat, going to the movies or (slight shudder here) shopping at Bass Pro then I see that MAPS accomplished something big. When you hear people talk about how their perception of their own city changed after MAPS I know it accomplished something big. I really do think a significant number of people in Oklahoma City understand that downtown has been transformed for them and by them. The goal of MAPS 3 is to continue to create things they can enjoy and be proud of, IMO.

To get back to the thread topic, I think the MAPS 3 Streetcars should be multi-faceted in purpose as the Mayor said (sorry, don't have the exact quote handy so am doing it from memory). It shouldn't be just a route for tourists (but that element is included, so it must run to the new C.C., the Park and as many of the other MAPS 3 projects as possible, Bricktown along with the Memorial and other DT areas of interest to out of towners. It needs to serve existing businesses and encourage development to areas that need infill. Now how you do all of that with just 5 to 6 miles of track is the challenge.

I believe an attempt will be made to make the city much more accessible for residents and visitors, within the scope of the funds available. Like the original Ford Center, it will be incomplete upon completion, as there will be a larger goal of creating a network for riders that ecompasses more than downtown. An organic city is never complete. We never get to rest on our laurels, but rather should always be asking what we can do, as citizens and as voters, to make it better.

[TheTravellers]

I assume that this is the first step of a comprehensive plan to reduce commuting car traffic, improve the air quality, reduce commute travel time to downtown, etc. If so, it ultimately services those who would commute from Edmond, Norman, Yukon/Mustang and MidWest/Del City areas so they can work downtown and not have to crowd the streets with cars, saving the city in street costs, parking garage costs, etc.

OK, this is slightly tangential, sorry about that, so we can take it up in another thread if necessary, but it relates directly to what Rover mentions above. How can we get traffic signals synchronized across the metro area (or at the least, OKC, or at the very least, *some* main, prioritized streets in OKC)? Salt Lake City has been doing this for a couple of years now to reduce pollution and commute times (with a side benefit of less aggravation that's hard to categorize). http://www.slcgov.com/transportation...s/PDF/sync.pdf is their quickie little intro pamphlet. I'm not sure if anybody in OKC sees the need to do it, though - our air quality isn't as bad as SLC's (I'm just supposing that's true, I have no proof one way or the other), commute times aren't horrible, and sadly, I don't think most folks mind waiting through a bunch of red lights (just gives them more time to text :-) ). Commute time could be reduced and air quality could be improved, I believe, since it's very, very hard to go more than a mile without stopping on a large amount of main streets here. There are also a large amount of signals that have their sensors and/or timers out-of-whack (Marbleleaf Drive and NW 150th is a great example - turns red on 150th when there's nobody on Marbleleaf (not even someone that turned right onto 150th and tripped the sensor) and then stays red for literally 2 minutes (no, not a huge amount of time, but completely unnecessary). I just don't think OKC will ever do this since it will cost them money to do it, and there will be absolutely no concrete return in like for doing it. It'd be nice, though, to be stopped at a light, have it turn green, and *not* have the next one turn red just as you get off the line from the green one, which happens quite regularly on my drives...

Keeping this on topic, though, I believe the MAPS3 streetcar needs to be the start of what Chicago's mass transit system is (leaving aside the political BS and corruption that's part of the Chicago system, I hope). Chicago has subway/elevated trains that hook up with their Metra heavy rail terminals/stations, which are also served by bus routes, which also connect with the El/subway. Almost all the trains (El and heavy) are on a hub/spoke system of which the hub is downtown. The El also serves neighborhoods, bringing folks from all over to all over, not just downtown. Buses are the same way, but the heavy rail exists pretty much just to get folks from "not-downtown" to downtown to work. So I think the MAPS3 streetcar needs to be very similar to what the Loop-specific section of the El is to downtown Chicago - smaller subset of a larger (to be eventually built) set of transit options (of all kinds, but probably excluding heavy rail) that can get people from all over into downtown and eventually to other parts of the city. These people can be commuters working downtown, people just wanting to go downtown to see something, but also just people getting from one spot to another (lots of times we rode the Metra into downtown and took the El to go see something at the Music Box theater, rather than driving in and dealing with horrible traffic and parking. But as Urban Pioneer (I think) said, it has to be done right this time, so make it central to getting downtown where there are lots of things going on that people like to do, and it should have a stop in Bricktown since that'd be like Chicago's El not having a stop by the Magnificent Mile. There's no way we'll ever have a mass transit system as comprehensive as a lot of cities, but we can still have a pretty good smaller one, if done right.

[Larry OKC]

I think you'll find a lot of people disagree with you. Downtown doesn't have to be THE place to shop for it to belong to everyone. It just needs to have a little something that everyone can either be proud of, want to show visitors or enjoy spending some time in. When I see people sledding at the ballpark, skating at the ice rink, walking out of Thunder games cheering, going to Barons games in their jerseys, walking into the public library, going to the Art Museum for brunch, to see a movie, to see an exhibit or to socialize on the rooftop, eating at restaurants throughout Bricktown and the CBD, riding a canal boat, going to the movies or (slight shudder here) shopping at Bass Pro then I see that MAPS accomplished something big. When you hear people talk about how their perception of their own city changed after MAPS I know it accomplished something big. I really do think a significant number of people in Oklahoma City understand that downtown has been transformed for them and by them. The goal of MAPS 3 is to continue to create things they can enjoy and be proud of, IMO....

And we are free to agree to disagree on that. No problem there. Unlike others I have never been ashamed or defensive when mentioning my home state/hometown (as I know there is no place that is perfect). The exception to that is MAPS itself, I would never take visitors down to the overhyped, overspent attrocity. The reason I say that is because I believed all of the hype and when I saw what our tax dollars bought, was severely disappointed with the results. Projects, while built, weren't built on time, on budget or as promised. Perfect example is the Canal. It cost 2.5 times what they said it would and wasn't't complete (was supposed to start at the convention center, go through Bricktown and connect to the River. We only got the Bricktown segment). Later an 'extension" to the River (that comes close but doesn't actually connect to the Canal was approved in the 2007 bond issue discussed elsewhere. And there was an attempt to get the convention center "extension" made part of MAPS 3, but City leaders didn't go for it (the C.C. cost roughly the same as the final cost of just the MAPS Bricktown segment). There is no getting around that inconvenient fact. Now one can argue if it was worth it or not, but that is a separate issue.

About the only time I venture in the area is to go to Toby Keiths for special occasions (and only because that is where it happens to be located). If I was more of a sports fan, again, it wouldn't be because the Ballpark or Arena are located DT/BT but because that is where the event is held at. In other words it has nothing to do with the location but the event itself.

We can agree that MAPS accomplished something big, but I don't think we would agree on what that was...LOL

[betts]

That's fine, because I do disagree...big time. When I moved here, downtown OKC was an embarrassment, a ghost town. Now, I'm proud to show visitors what we've accomplished and I love spending time downtown, to the point that I find it cumbersome to have to get in my car and leave. I use all the MAPS projects and look forward to the new ones. We're all different, obviously.

[ljbab728]

That's fine, because I do disagree...big time. When I moved here, downtown OKC was an embarrassment, a ghost town. Now, I'm proud to show visitors what we've accomplished and I love spending time downtown, to the point that I find it cumbersome to have to get in my car and leave. I use all the MAPS projects and look forward to the new ones. We're all different, obviously.

I agree Betts. Larry's visitors are missing out. When I have visitors in town and do things like the river boats and bricktown, they are always excited and busy taking pictures. And they aren't from backwater podunk cities. Downtown and the MAPS developments aren't perfect but they are still appreciated and a big draw.

[Larry OKC]

...We never get to rest on our laurels, but rather should always be asking what we can do, as citizens and as voters, to make it better.

Nothing wrong with that on the surface but when projects were sold to the voters as being complete, state-of-the-art, crown jewels etc then just 5 years later, are told we need to spend just as much in improvements to complete the building you were told you got the first time around, there is a problem there.

The Streetcars were clearly presented as a starter system (after MAPS 3 was revealed) but if we don't get the the 5 to 6 miles and it doesn't go to all of the places the mayor said it was going to go to...again another problem. Having a MAPS 4, 5 & 6 to complete the comprehensive system is one thing, but if additional funds are needed to complete just the starter system, again, we have a problem.

Here is what the City's MAPS 3 website currently states:

Transit
Cost: $130 million
Description: The transit package includes approximately five to six miles of downtown streetcar. The streetcar will be on rails in City streets and link major employers, businesses, attractions and residential communities in the downtown area.

Here is what the Mayor said the Streetcar should connect:
http://www.mtpokc.com/news.html

Cornett said he and the Oklahoma City Council are still in the "consensus-building stage." As MAPS 3 plans progress, the streetcar emerges as the one thing that can link all the MAPS projects together, from the Bricktown Ballpark built by the original MAPS, through the Ford Center's makeover, to the glittering new convention center proposed for MAPS 3- something has to allow the projected throngs of out-of-town visitors a way to get from one to the other.

but

Mayor Mick Cornett indicated he favors a "spoke and hub" system "that would function as legitimate transit rather than a loop that would only really serve tourists."

then
http://newsok.com/streetcar-is-a-hot...rticle/3460859

Streetcar is a hot topic at Oklahoma City meetings (Oklahoman, 5/13/10)

"Are you trying to build it to encourage and create development or are you trying to get it where people already are? I tend to think we are going to do both,” Cornett said.

not from the mayor but the light Rail Now website http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_newslog2009q4.htm:

...proposed streetcar running through Bricktown historical district, which would be linked to a variety of other important destinations and activity centers, including downtown, the Amtrak station, a planned intermodal transfer hub, the St. Anthony Hospital complex, various sports and entertainment venues, the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, and the Capitol complex.

All of that with just 5 to 6 miles?

More than one article stated that the transit portion would include the 5 to 6 miles of Streetcars AND commuter rail, along with the transit hub bringing everything together. However the mayor had this to say:

Whatever is decided, some people are bound to be disappointed. Cornett said one of the biggest battles is simple terminology.
Many people don’t understand the difference between the downtown streetcar the city is planning and a commuter rail system that could link the city with other metro communities such as Edmond and Norman.

So the question remains, is commuter rail included or not, or were the reporters confused too?

Reportedly, the Streetcars are not dependent on any other funding and the Mayor said they have allocated enough to ensure the $130M would be enough to meet the stated goals (sorry but don't have the specific article handy)

Just like the $40M in additional funds it is going to take to actually complete the Trails Master Plan (as promised in numerous articles by multiple City officials). We only have $17M in cost over run funds dedicated in MAPS 3 so we are already $23M short at the start thanks to that "mistake". We can only hope that more mistakes of this magnitude aren't around the corner.

[betts]

Larry, like with the Ford Center, you can only spend what you have. There may be some projects with cost overruns, but I don't think anyone can assume that's always an option, because clearly it's not. When a project is envisioned, an estimate is made of what that project will cost. However, the MAPS collection will take 7 years and we are told it could be 10 years before everything is completed. Anyone who isn't able to comprehend that sometimes things cost more than anticipated, or things occur that change estimations hasn't had much experience with either time or construction projects. Only someone who has not developed beyond the concrete stage of operations would hold a politician or anyone else to every literal word spoken when they're talking about things that may occur ten years in the future. Every effort will be made to get as many miles from the streetcar system as possible, while maintaining quality, and every effort will be made to serve citizens and visitors. But the $20 million per mile was a middle-of-the road estimate made in 2009 without knowing what utilties may have to be moved, which bridges might need extensive excavation, where corners may have to be clipped, etc. I think our citizens can understand that they will get a streetcar system, city council willing, and it will be the best streetcar system we can afford, within the scope of the tax dollars available (which could be more or less than $120 million to start with).

Whatever is decided, some people are bound to be disappointed. Cornett said one of the biggest battles is simple terminology.
Many people don’t understand the difference between the downtown streetcar the city is planning and a commuter rail system that could link the city with other metro communities such as Edmond and Norman.

So the question remains, is commuter rail included or not, or were the reporters confused too?

I don't think anywhere the quote above implies that the reporter thinks a commuter rail system is involved. One could question whether it was the mayor implying that some people don't understand the difference between the downtown streetcar and a commuter rail system or whether it was the reporter, but that is the only question in my mind when reading the above quote. I believe Urban Pioneer can tell you that most voters were not confused. They may confuse the concepts of light rail and streetcar, which appear similar, but I think most understand that it is not going to be a system linking Edmond and Norman, nor was it promised to be.

[Kerry]

Larry - I think you are attributing too much supernatural power to the Mayor. What he says is not brought to earth chiseled in stone to be the law of the land for all eternity. He is going through a learning process about rail just like the rest of us are. Opinions and desires have to change as more knowledge and information is acquired. For me personally, the system I envisioned 12 months ago is not the same system I envision today. Why? Because I know things today I didn’t know then. In fact, my view of streetcars has changed 180 degrees in just the past 7 days. (don't know if I should use the word 'changed' as much as my view has been refined - I learned a lot studying the Oslo streetcar system)

[soonerguru]

Larry - I think you are attributing too much supernatural power to the Mayor. What he says is not brought to earth chiseled in stone to be the law of the land for all eternity. He is going through a learning process about rail just like the rest of us are. Opinions and desires have to change as more knowledge and information is acquired. For me personally, the system I envisioned 12 months ago is not the same system I envision today. Why? Because I know things today I didn’t know then. In fact, my view of streetcars has changed 180 degrees in just the past 7 days. (don't know if I should use the word 'changed' as much as my view has been refined - I learned a lot studying the Oslo streetcar system)

And Thank God the mayor is a person who is willing to change his position when he learns new information. What a nightmare it would be if he weren't.

[Hutch]

More than one article stated that the transit portion would include the 5 to 6 miles of Streetcars AND commuter rail, along with the transit hub bringing everything together. However the mayor had this to say:

So the question remains, is commuter rail included or not, or were the reporters confused too?

It's simply limited understanding and poor reporting on the media's part. It happens every day. Those of us who have dealt with press releases and press relations know very well that once you finish an interview or distribute specific information, no matter how well presented, you can only pray that what gets printed is accurate and not misrepresented. Some of the media outlets do a very good job of taking the time to understand the details and accurately report the information. Others are more interested in simply getting a headline out as quickly as possible.

In this case, the confusion comes from the fact that the MAPS 3 $130 million transit package involves $120 million for 5-6 miles of modern streetcar and $10 million to go toward the intermodal hub or commuter rail infrastructure. That has been correctly stated numerous times by the Mayor and other officials. However, of all of the news stories done on the subject, the press has described the package in various ways, some of which are inaccurate. Some have described it very accurately. Others have simply generalized the facts and printed that the $130 million is for streetcar, hub and commuter rail, which is true in the general sense but not very accurate as to the specifics of the actual package.

[shane453]

Larry- you're one of my favorite characters on OKCTalk, because you're always searching for problems that just aren't there. Someone's got to be the conspiracy theorist and devil's advocate I suppose. But really, no one ever implied that commuter rail would be a part of MAPS 3, and if any voters thought that was the case then Mayor Cornett is exactly right- they were confused about commuter rail vs streetcar.

[Rover]

Back on track....

The question was, what do YOU think the streetcar system should should be and do? Not what you think someone else meant. Why do you think the streetcar system will do for OKC?

[Popsy]

My view is that the streetcar system will allow OKC to eventually say "well we finally had a Maps failure". I am with Pete White on this one. There is no bang for the buck here, in fact it will barely be a whisper. It might have some ridership for a couple of years due to the novelty of there being a streercar system in OKC. It will give the panhandlers a captive audience for two years during the novelty phase. Instead of working the streets and whatever weather there is that day, panhandlers can ride all day long plying their trade without having to worry about the weather. This is all I will say about this subject as I do not want to debate my opinion. It is what it is.

[shane453]

^^ I can't wait to go back to the archives and find comments like that once the streetcar has generated its first billion or two in private investment (see Portland)

[Rover]

My view is that the streetcar system will allow OKC to eventually say "well we finally had a Maps failure". I am with Pete White on this one. There is no bang for the buck here, in fact it will barely be a whisper. It might have some ridership for a couple of years due to the novelty of there being a streercar system in OKC. It will give the panhandlers a captive audience for two years during the novelty phase. Instead of working the streets and whatever weather there is that day, panhandlers can ride all day long plying their trade without having to worry about the weather. This is all I will say about this subject as I do not want to debate my opinion. It is what it is.

I bet the Thunder fails here to. Nobody wants to see the NBA here. (sarcasm intended)

[Spartan]

My view is that the streetcar system will allow OKC to eventually say "well we finally had a Maps failure".

If you don't think there has been a MAPS failure yet, let me help you out with that: The rubber-tire trolleys.

There is no bang for the buck here, in fact it will barely be a whisper.

How do you even say that? Every $1 Portland spends on streetcar it gets $18 back in development. You must not literally be referring to pecuniary matters when you say getting bang for your buck.

It might have some ridership for a couple of years due to the novelty of there being a streercar system in OKC.

Isn't that what everyone said about the NBA in Oklahoma?

It will give the panhandlers a captive audience for two years during the novelty phase. Instead of working the streets and whatever weather there is that day, panhandlers can ride all day long plying their trade without having to worry about the weather.

This is anti-urban. What are we supposed to do, send all of our money to Edmond so that we can make sure panhandlers don't benefit? Yeah, Portland has panhandlers, but who cares? OKC has them too, you can just run them over if you want.

This is all I will say about this subject as I do not want to debate my opinion. It is what it is.

How convenient.

[Kerry]

If you don't think there has been a MAPS failure yet, let me help you out with that: The rubber-tire trolleys.

Thank you. That was such an easy one to hit out of the park it should have been a crime to do so.

This is anti-urban. What are we supposed to do, send all of our money to Edmond so that we can make sure panhandlers don't benefit? Yeah, Portland has panhandlers, but who cares? OKC has them too, you can just run them over if you want.

I have a friend in Atlanta with a unique solution to this. When he sees a panhandler approaching him he asks the bum if he has any change he can spare. It usually catches the panhandler off guard who then just walks away confused about what just happened.

[betts]

I think the whole pandhandler thing is overblown anyway. I've lived downtown for almost 2 years now and I've only been approached once by a panhandler and I'm out and about in Bricktown and Deep Deuce almost daily, and downtown frequently.

[Popsy]

I said I was not going to debate this, but I will comment on the responses.

Spartan, the reason the rubber tired trolleys are not doing well is because there is not a viable demand for public transportation in OKC. Except for the novelty, the streetcar will not change that at all.

Shane, I hope you are a young person and be here a very long time to see any significant kind of return on the streetcar.

Kerry, if you think Spartan hit one out of the ball park, the outfield fence must have been only 10 feet from home plate.

Betts, only time will tell.

Rover, people might have said the Thunder would fail, but the reality is that there was a demand, unlike the streetcar.

A Question. Why do urbanists feel they have to respond to everyone that has a different opinion than their own. Very tiresome.

[BoulderSooner]

I don't think that i could be called an urbanist per say ... i do live in midtown and i want to see OKC continue to grow and get better. a couple of thoughts on the "no bang for your buck"

If i lived in north or south OKC .. from a transit standpoint i would have been against the "downtown streetcar" because i would be in a house in the burbs somewhere and it would not do much for me .... as a midtowner i may or may not use the streetcar to get around but i like that it being built because it will raise my property value.


however what makes street car such a no brainer .. is the private investment that follows fixed rail urban transit ... as others have said it is huge and very real ..

120mil investment in ourseves (actually much less since much of the tax is paid by those outside OKC) will return well over a Billion in private investment in okc and thus create huge revenue source for the city ... everyone should be for fixed rail transit from a purely dollars standpoint ..