New Providence Place Apartments

[metro]

In fairness, you are leaving a lot out of the picture, such as the Westgate Marketplace and Meridian Ave corridor

[SSEiYah]

So the 3rd floor scenic view of the salvage yard and landfill worth that extra few hundred a month?

I was really wanting to move in those apartments since they are walking distance from my employer, however I was shocked they were $700/month for a 1 bedroom. I would consider it if they were $500+utils for a small studio. Watersedge on meridian (built in the 80s) was $390/month with all new appliances. It was ok other than having my car broken into a few times and the occasional gunshots/helicopters overhead the oak grove public housing area.

You would think the land is cheap over there since there are numerous boarded up businesses and houses, I thought it would be reflected in the monthly rent.

[Spartan]

Well it's not like there is a shortage of available land in other areas of the metro where a project of such low quality could more ostensibly command such high rents.

[Doug Loudenback]

Thunder, all of OKC's apartments don't need to be low grade, low rent. For some that is very moderate.

Agree.

As others stated, I think it will fill in nicely. I think Oklahomans complain more than any other people I've met.

Agree.

For what it is, suburban apartments, the project looks pretty good to me and, if the Journal Record article is accurate, doesn't sound like it's being built on the cheap. Would I, a substantially retired old guy who likes downtown and old things, chose to live there? No. I'm quite happy living in my wife's and my Mesta Park home. But, I suspect that a good market exists for this project, and I wish it well.





















So what's not to like?

[Spartan]

So what's not to like?

Well, it's just the whole preposterous idea of this being urban living, which is insulting to advocates and proponents of urban living and people who know what urban living is. "Come life in one of our lofts just 10 minutes from downtown."

They're not true lofts, and it's hardly 10 minutes from downtown, it's practically Yukon--and during the day it takes longer than 10 minutes to go anywhere because there is some traffic, a lot of slow-driving Okies, and you'll surely hit every light--that's just going to get fast food a mile or two away.

What's worrisome is that it remains to be seen if this thing will actually be able to swoop in and eat up some demand for downtown apartments, which erodes that pent-up demand. Tanenbaum was able to do it very successfully by selling "urban living 10 minutes from downtown" on I-44, and now these out-of-towners being able to do it in the opposite direction is also frustrating. It's exploiting the inability of getting people to just swoop in and build quality apartments downtown. This is too easy for the developers, who get to feign urban with potential renters, at the same time as pleasing the banks who feel more comfortable with suburban projects.

I'd be interested to see what bank financed this project, likely one not from OKC who just swallowed the marketing pitch on the location ignoring that to anyone from OKC the location is very strange. If it was a local bank, there must have been interesting conversations about, "You want our money to build apartments, where??" And if that's the case, and considering that obviously it did come to fruition (which so many urban projects don't), then that would seem to suggest another entirely different and equally frustrating problem, that local banks are more willing to go for loony suburban projects that sensible urban ones.

Keep in mind, that I don't want them to fail, because that would be bad for OKC, and I do think they will be successful. OKC is a really strong rental market, and the current economy is very strong for rentals (because it's harder to buy right now and people have to live somewhere), so OKC will probably be able to support a variety of good and bad apartment developments.

[Doug Loudenback]

About location, Nick, you said, "it's practically Yukon." Oh, come on, Nick, you know that's not so.

Are you suggesting that OKC apartment development needs to be handicapped or something that gives downtown location a competitive advantage?

If these upstart out-of-staters can march right on in to town and just "do it," what does that say about in-staters who "just don't?" I don't know but suppose that financing was from a Texas lender ... and, again, if so, what does that say about OKC lenders? It's a free market.

[Spartan]

Doug, I'm just saying the project doesn't excite me like it does the people at OKCBiz or the Journal Record. If I were in the shoes of a city planner or a city councilor of course I'd temper my opinions or not say any of that at all. It's great that our city is viewed as such a strong market that it's attracting decent-sized outside investment, even if that investment is a crappy project in my opinion.

Sometimes there's a big difference in just saying, "I don't care for this project," and actually suggesting something should be done about it. I don't think anyone that thinks this project is a joke (like me) is implying that the developers don't have the right to do a bad project there. As far as I'm concerned, it's not downtown, it's not near a park, it's not near any nice neighborhoods, and it's not near a lake or a wildlife refuge. It's truly one of the places in the metro where something could be built and I would seriously not care.

The reality is that it is an improvement for the area, which is sort of an odd transition zone between strip malls and trailer parks/landfill/industrial.

[SSEiYah]

Some people are claiming these are built "cheaply". I do not think that is the case. They look to be of similar quality to the new apartments in Yukon off of I-40 which were built recently. They have what looks to be an awesome theater room, great floor plans. They use stained concrete in living areas which is far better than carpet, cheaper than say...maple, but gives it that "modern/upscale" look. If they have concrete separating the units, that is a plus. It appears the floors may be concrete which is great for noise suppression.

The thing is, there are tons of ABANDONED apartments in that area, boarded up, ect. Nobody seems to have an interest on renovating the apartments on NW 10th/Rockwell/Council area.

http://tinyurl.com/2bv2m65 --> That is the main one that comes to mind.

You live under the path for the jets.
You live next to a major landfill with smells.
You live in an industrial side of town.
You are paying $1000/mo for a place to live in a city where the average rent is $534 for 1 bedroom and $659 for a 2 bedroom. (source: apartmentratings.com)

The only demographic I see being able to afford $1000+utils for a place are folks from Dell, the airport or some surrounding employers in that part of town. Most retail jobs in that area are not much above minimum wage.

Either way, I hope they work out. The whole idea is just shocking to me about why they chose that area for "higher end" apartments.

That idea would be perfect for Edmond, but not that area.

[ljbab728]

[url]

The only demographic I see being able to afford $1000+utils for a place are folks from Dell, the airport or some surrounding employers in that part of town. Most retail jobs in that area are not much above minimum wage.

Either way, I hope they work out. The whole idea is just shocking to me about why they chose that area for "higher end" apartments.

That idea would be perfect for Edmond, but not that area.

The apartments are obviously not targeting minimum wage retail workers. There are numerous apartments in that part of town which already do that. You mentioned the possibilities where potential renters might come from and there is a large segment of those in that area of the city so I don't see why it would surprise you. Higher end earners there might not want to spend an hour commuting to Edmond in rush hour.

[SSEiYah]

I'm guessing there will be expansion along SW 15th from Portland to MacArthur on the river. The land and infrastructure is ready to go.

Hopefully this will encourage some higher-end development in the area.

[onthestrip]

It takes 7 minutes tops to get to downtown from there. Not urban living by any means but hardly far away from downtown or n Yukon. Speaking of Yukon, they just had another apt complex built right next to another 4 yr old complex and there were no complaints on that one. And regarding prices, many of you are complaining but the prices will be determined by the market. If they are high, they'll come down. I wouldn't expect it to happen though.

[betts]

Cities are full of apartment complexes. If the rents are too high, they won't rent them and they'll drop the prices. And again, a little perspective. Those are light years nicer than my daughters' $2,000 a month 2 bedroom apartment in Chicago, which is in a renovated 3 flat without any amenities, including parking.

[slayerinokc]

Hilldale Elementary and Mayfield Middle school? No Thanks.

[dirk]

What can I say to all this… I’m amazed by so much negativity. I guess that’s what I fought for when I was in Iraq, so people could openly say whatever they want. My input; and I do have to confess that I work with commercial real estate as a profession. Although I am familiar with this project, I am not involved or have any incentive to say good things.

With that said, someone referred to this project as another Lyrewood. I think that was about the farthest comparison from realistic as anything anyone said in here (no offense to you personally). That was developed mostly in the 60’s and into the 70’s when you could say the building restrictions were a little different than they are now. Fortunately with the advancement of technology and education, our city planners, enforcement officials etc, are much more knowledgeable about sustainable development and quality construction now than they were then. There are ordinances in place that would prevent developments like that from happening now. Not saying someone couldn’t build a poorly constructed property and get away with it, but the likelihood of the city allowing several thousands of units in one immediate area like that are pretty unlikely. Now planners emphasize long term sustainability over short term gains.

With regards to the comments from some about downgrading multifamily development as a whole, that’s just un-realistic. If you go to any established country in the world, you will see dating back to 10th Century BC they had multifamily properties. Then they were mostly used for lower to middle class, but as people started to desire to live close to downtowns, they increased in popularity. I say this because for a really long time apartments have thrived and been a part of any civilized society. People talk about wanting a grocery store or higher end retail in downtown, but one of the main reasons none of them will move there is the population for actual residents (not employees) is so low. There needs to be more density downtown before that will happen. As people become more environmentally conscious and want to drive less, or as gas prices rise to a point where you can’t afford to live in Edmond and drive to the airport where you word, then they move to apartments closer to their employers. Then you have people that just want to live in apartments by choice. They don’t want to pay for maintenance; they don’t want to mow a yard. These people, usually young professionals, or empty nesters, actually choose to live in apartments. They can buy a house but don’t want to. Many of the new properties such as this one won’t rent to someone with poor credit history. So if you can’t qualify to buy a house, you probably won’t be able to rent an apartment in those properties either without paying a huge deposit. Also you can build apartments that are of good quality too, they don’t have to be a dump. This specific project received the bulk of its financing from HUD. HUD knows the big picture and what’s needed for proper land use development, and if you say they only did it because they don’t live in OKC so they don’t know the area like one of the comments said, you couldn’t be farther from the truth. To get a HUD loan you have to go thru MUCH MUCH more than getting a conventional loan. Typically a developer will have close to if not more than $100k invested in the cost/fees associated with getting a HUD loan before they even know if HUD will grant it. They know what the area is better than most people that live in the area.

The best way to keep “Lyrewoods” from happening is to also include mixed uses. The only thing I would criticize about this project is the lack of mixed uses. I would have liked to see the land that fronts on MacArthur having retail with residential units (apartments) above them. There are very few projects that have this aside from the downtown area, and it creates a very sustainable use. The developer does plan to either develop or sell the land for retail development so it will get that component eventually, but I would have liked to see it incorporated in the first Phase so it had the units above.

I was surprised at the location well before they broke ground because they have been looking at developing this site for years. I think it has a lot of potential, but is a little ahead of it’s time for the area. There is a lot of retail (employers/activities) really close, but the immediate land is still vacant with some small exceptions. A lot of the land around it is owned by the same guy who developed Westgate Marketplace, the highly successful retail development just a few blocks north. I’m sure the building of Providence Place will speed up their desire to develop the properties adjacent. Without the apartments being built, these potential retailers, the hotel, and whatever else goes in the area would have been put off longer and maybe the quality of what’s to come might have been less without the apartments. Regardless it’s development and eventually business for the city. Its things like this that make OKC such a solid market and why we were able to handle the recession a little better than the rest of the country. I give them kudos for taking the chance for this area because it was planned before a lot of the development in the area was going on, and well before the outlet mall was announced. It was taking a chance, but I think it’s going to be a homerun for the investor, as well as the city for what economic impact it has by getting that area going.

Someone commented about the rental market and how it was doing well. This is one area I know really well. That was true; the rental market is doing well. Someone mentioned like along 10th street, then not mentioned but in similar condition those few along I-40 in Del City, but those are nothing like Providence. Keep in mind, those are C & D class properties whereas this property will be an A class. Class A properties are performing better than any others in respects to rents and occupancy. It was also said that sure it’s nice now, but in twenty years will it be nice? Who knows? If someone buys a house and they don’t take care of it, what condition will it be in after twenty years? Does that mean we should not allow houses to be built? I didn’t think so. The fact is if the owner takes care of the property, it can last just as long as any other structure. If they allow it to run down, then it won’t. It doesn’t mean we need to take that property type and just throw it out of the window.

Since you got me started on my tangent I might as well bring up the properties that are in the condition of those mentioned along 10th Street. There are properties in that same condition all over the city, not just that specific area. Those that are that bad are in my opinion, beyond repair. Now it takes a lot for me to say they are beyond repair because I’ve seen some pretty major turnarounds and know that a lot’s possible, however it would be doing everyone a favor if someone would just demolish them. That would have a positive impact on housing values in the immediate areas, it would help other properties occupancy, market rents and overall the appearance of the city. The question is who’s going to do it? The current property owners won’t because most likely they are already under water financially anyways and they wouldn’t have a benefit to. The city doesn’t want to spend the money because the cost is so high when you take into account environmental issues, the actual demolition and disposal costs. Who’s left? That’s the big question. Most likely what will happen to them is the bank will take them back, then they will sell them for ridiculously low prices to someone who thinks they can get rich flipping them. That buyer will probably repair it enough to make it rentable (notice I didn’t say livable since many of them most of us wouldn’t live in), and since they bought them so cheap they may actually make a little money as an investment. However the properties will always look bad and when a property as big as most are, it most likely will keep the property values depressed for the area around it. The ones that don’t get the investor like that will probably be back on the foreclosure block again not long after. The one who will eventually get stuck with it when they city finally says no, it’s too bad to rent anymore will be the lender. That’s when finally it will get demolished and can start over. Unless the city or some type of federal program provides funding, there’s really not anything else I can see happen to those types of properties.

That got us off the topic of Providence. So in summary, I applaud the developers of this because I think it looks good and really believe with everything going on around there it will lease up without a problem. Regarding rates, we’ll see. You’d be surprised what people will pay to have the newest coolest thing and the unit design and style of these are definitely that. The location although at first glance doesn’t seem practical; I think will prove to be just right. It depends on who owns the property between now and twenty years from now to say what the condition will be like then, because in all reality it will probably have been sold several times by then. If taken care of it can be full and looking good, if not it could be gone. For now though, I think it’s great for OKC so thanks for building it.

[Thunder]

I drove by this place the other day and it looks good. There is a potential for new developments along this complex. I picked up something inside the mobile trailer park just south of it and found nothing wrong with it. The whole complex was clean and kept in shape.

[metro]

dirk, if it makes you feel any better, I've stated before that I think this is a good infill project.

[MikeOKC]

Hilldale Elementary and Mayfield Middle school? No Thanks.

Isn't that sad? Once nice schools destroyed by "diversi.."......uhhh.....bad elements.

[c52404]

Yeah, I just moved into this place "providence place apartments" the guy that showed me the apartment was awesome but the apartment is horrible! You can hear sound, even someone coughing next door. it's bad. total cracker box. I would not ever move into a place like this. they look nice on the outside but they are horrible. not to mention the "sunridge management" isn't even based in oklahoma....and for the rate they are wanting (around 1,000) a month, you can have a BRAND NEW RENT HOUSE!! it's crazy. I'm moving out.

[ljbab728]

Yeah, I just moved into this place "providence place apartments" the guy that showed me the apartment was awesome but the apartment is horrible! You can hear sound, even someone coughing next door. it's bad. total cracker box. I would not ever move into a place like this. they look nice on the outside but they are horrible. not to mention the "sunridge management" isn't even based in oklahoma....and for the rate they are wanting (around 1,000) a month, you can have a BRAND NEW RENT HOUSE!! it's crazy. I'm moving out.

I'm sorry to hear that. IMO sound insulation is one of the biggest factors in quality apartment construction. All of the stainless steel kitchen appliances in the world don't make up for having to listen to your neighbors having a fight in the middle of the night.

[Thunder]

I'm sorry to hear that. IMO sound insulation is one of the biggest factors in quality apartment construction. All of the stainless steel kitchen appliances in the world don't make up for having to listen to your neighbors having _ _ _ in the middle of the night.

Just a correction. :-)

[ljbab728]

Just a correction. :-)

No need to correct that Thunder. Some people might enjoy listening to what you're suggesting. LOL

[Thunder]

No need to correct that Thunder. Some people might enjoy listening to what you're suggesting. LOL

Oh, you're turning me on!!!

[circuitboard]

Friend from work has been living there a month now, and he says he loves it, and said he has not had any noise issues?

[ljbab728]

Oh, you're turning me on!!!

Calm down. That certainly was not my intent.

[bombermwc]

Isn't that sad? Once nice schools destroyed by "diversi.."......uhhh.....bad elements.

Are you serious? Please tell me you are making a very poor attempt at a bad taste in humor.