Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm pretty sure Urban Pioneer is aware of this technology.

Yep. Were actively discussing induction technology and trying to determine of it can be done and achieve the 5-6 mile objective set forth in MAPS. The same goes for assessing CNG and the other potential technologies for powering.

[Rover]

Local rail is as new to the people of France as it is to the people of Oklahoma.

Well, I've been traveling extensively in Europe for about 25 years and in most cities the size of OKC they have been rail-centric...inter-city for sure, but also intra-city. To compare the acceptance of rail in Europe to rail travel in OKC is just not realistic. The travel culture is totally different as is the makeup and geography of the cities, not to mention the use of cars here vs. there.

[soonerguru]

Well, I've been traveling extensively in Europe for about 25 years and in most cities the size of OKC they have been rail-centric...inter-city for sure, but also intra-city. To compare the acceptance of rail in Europe to rail travel in OKC is just not realistic. The travel culture is totally different as is the makeup and geography of the cities, not to mention the use of cars here vs. there.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. A lot of the folks here have traveled in Europe extensively, including me and in all likelihood, Kerry as well. Why would you have to be Debbie Downer about simply admiring the photos of some of the French cities' use of modern street car?

We had one Einstein suggesting that the street car would diminish our pedestrian culture in Bricktown. Strange argument I know, but the photos of the French cities showed vibrant pedestrian activity alongside the street cars.

So are we to avoid:

1. Admiring pretty pics of French trains?
2. Suggesting that pedestrians and trains can coexist?
3. Examining successful installations of modern street car systems?

Perhaps we should just throw up our hands and admit defeat.

[Rover]

I'm not sure I understand your argument. A lot of the folks here have traveled in Europe extensively, including me and in all likelihood, Kerry as well. Why would you have to be Debbie Downer about simply admiring the photos of some of the French cities' use of modern street car?

Sorry, didn't mean to be a downer. I thought the previous argument was that OKC can do what the French cities are doing with rail because it was all new there too, at least since WW2. My only point was that in most Euro cities of around our size they have had rail for 60 years or so (if you are counting since WW2) and they have a culture of traveling short and long distances on rail. I don't think OKC's applications are going to be the same. I would argue we will be much more like Salt Lake City than Grenoble. That isn't bad, and I think more realistic. The French cities will be much more subsidized and will generally have to serve a smaller geography of the city. Our challenges are closer to San Jose or SL City.

BTW, I am a huge fan of rail travel of all types. That is how I usually move around Europe and know most of the underground and light rail systems pretty well. I am super excited about us finally getting a chance to create one here.

[warreng88]

Council debates transit hub
By Brian Brus
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact 405-278-2837
Posted: 07:13 PM Tuesday, December 28, 2010

OKLAHOMA CITY – Several sites are on the table for consideration for Oklahoma City’s new multimodal transit hub, officials said recently.

But some council members aren’t certain that it makes sense to secure federal funds to create a system larger than the city can sustain without subsidizing it.

City officials have been re-evaluating the hub since 2005 when a fixed guideway plan study was ordered. Rick Cain, director of the city’s public transportation and parking department, said his staff and others involved in the study focused on where the greatest amount of growth was expected through 2035 – housing, retail and employment centers.

Officials had to consider overall economic development alongside existing mobility shortages and environmental impact. The study area spread across the metro area, including north to Edmond and south to Norman. Eleven main corridors were identified, as were modes of transportation appropriate to each – bus lines, for example, and fixed rail systems.

Among the suggestions at the time were a streetcar for downtown and an intermodal hub to link the multiple corridors.

Currently the city’s buses are operated out of the center at N.W. Fifth and Hudson, an unlikely site to develop additional transportation modes such as rail. About $10 million was earmarked in the MAPS 3 tax issue passed last December to develop an intermodal hub.

The most likely sites that were first considered included parking lots in the nearby Bricktown district, the Santa Fe railroad station, Union Station, the Cox Convention Center, and the east side of the soon-to-be-developed Central Park.

After criteria were weighed, the list has been shortened to three: the north Bricktown parking lot near the intersection of Main Street and E.K. Gaylord; the Santa Fe station combined with two nearby parking lots; and the so-called lumberyard site, near Gaylord and south of the existing Interstate 40 crosstown.

Cain said city officials are looking to secure federal funds, primarily with an eye toward developing a “downtown circulator” limited to central Oklahoma City to avoid multi-jurisdictional issues with other cities and counties.

An alternatives analysis is expected to be completed by March, he said. Public meetings will be held for additional input from residents, Cain said. The hub advisory committee conclusion is expected by April.

Ward 4 Councilman Pete White said he’s grown less supportive of the concept as it’s been developed.

“The cost of it, and the fixed nature of it, is one of those ideas that I think we’re going to regret,” he said. “I don’t think we’re going to regret a hub study; I don’t think we’re going to regret putting in a transportation system downtown that would work.

But I think we’re going to regret spending $120 million on something that’s fixed that only serves five or six miles of downtown.”

One of the most attractive aspects of a fixed rail system is economic development, White said, and downtown is already developed. He also said the city is already investing in enhancing foot travel in the area, which would also seem to be wasted effort weighed against a limited rail circulator.

City Manager Jim Couch said it’s common for cities to subsidize operating mass transit systems to some extent. And Mayor Mick Cornett said that although the federal government hasn’t historically stepped up after helping to pay the capital expenses to install routes, President Barack Obama’s administration has made overtures in that direction.

[Kerry]

The French cities will be much more subsidized and will generally have to serve a smaller geography of the city. Our challenges are closer to San Jose or SL City.

The OKC system is being put in with 100% tax dollars so I don't know how much more subsidized it can get. As for geographic service area, I think the OKC system should be limited to the urban core. If you want to live out on Northwest Expressway or Memorial Road get a car. If you want access to quality public transportation live in the core. An OKC system can't service 640 sq miles and it shouldn't even try, Reduce the serivce area to the inner 50 sq miles or so and provide a very high level of service.

[okclee]

In related news;

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The former president of Shell Oil, John Hofmeister, says Americans could be paying $5 for a gallon of gasoline by 2012.

In an interview with Platt's Energy Week television, Hofmeister predicted gasoline prices will spike as the global demand for oil increases.

"I'm predicting actually the worst outcome over the next two years which takes us to 2012 with higher gasoline prices," he said.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/27/mark...l_commodities/

[betts]

If we could get a simple, reliable, frequently running bus service, it could easily supplement the streetcar. But first we have to get people accustomed to using mass transit and liking the convenience it offers. We have to have everything they take the bus to get to be walkable or serviced by the streetcar. If you took an express bus down Northwest Highway that dropped you off at the hub, where you could walk to your destination or catch a streetcar, people might consider doing it for the convenience of not having to worry about parking. But, a circulator between areas people want to go that runs frequently is the key to public acceptance of other forms of mass transit, IMO.

[Kerry]

The sooner we can drop the concept of 'buses' the better off we will be. After 60 years of service in every city in American they have only proven succesful in 4 or 5 of them - and those 4 or 5 have them tied to the rail system. If any form of mass transit has failed, it is buses and their flexable routes (take that Pete White).

[soonerguru]

The OKC system is being put in with 100% tax dollars so I don't know how much more subsidized it can get. As for geographic service area, I think the OKC system should be limited to the urban core. If you want to live out on Northwest Expressway or Memorial Road get a car. If you want access to quality public transportation live in the core. An OKC system can't service 640 sq miles and it shouldn't even try, Reduce the serivce area to the inner 50 sq miles or so and provide a very high level of service.

I agree with this completely, but I must say I'm very dismayed by Pete White's comments above. They are a bit frightening and harken to many heated discussions during the MAPS III campaign. Hopefully some of our transit advocates can remind him that the initial route for the street car will serve a vital purpose but is only the first step in what will hopefully be an expanded system. Someone also needs to remind him that fixed routes are the only things that serve development and we have a lot of infill development for residential and retail that needs to happen downtown. Does Pete White simply not notice the blocks upon blocks of empty land in the north part of Downtown/Midtown? I can't imagine what he's talking about when he says OKC's downtown is already "developed."

[okclee]

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are. If not, this is about the dumbest thing I've read on this site in a couple of days...

I don't think a streetcar would ruin Bricktown, if anything it would encourage those long-vacant lots to finally infill perhaps. The real thing is, like you said, Bricktown is already the most walkable urban neighborhood we have. Meaning it doesn't need a dedicated line running through it, but rather maybe a nearby streetcar stop. Urban Pioneer has also stated that Bricktown could be a probable location for the "hub", resulting in some much needed development down there.

Adding a street car isn't to make Bricktown more walkable - it is to bring people into Bricktown. Once the street car is put in any area that is not on or near the path is going to become deadsville.

Actually I am not kidding, and I don't think it is "dumbest thing" to have a different opinion.

I do agree that Bricktown needs a stop, never said it didn't, but it does not need a streetcar running down Reno, Sheridan or Main St.

I feel like Bricktown property owners have already been given multiple "Gifts" from the City (the Canal and Ballpark).

Think about it, the same developers that have been sitting and speculating on canal front property or money making parking lots will be the same that will want unreasonable amounts of money for streetcar route property. Give Bricktown a dedicated stop at Gaylord and Reno or Sheridan and let the people walk into the Bricktown district just as they currently do. Bricktown will not become deadsville and it will continue on it's slow growing current pace. Nothing is wrong with that, the streetcar would bring people to a stop and Sheridan and Gaylord and people would walk into the Bricktown area if desired.

Let's spread the Gifts around and run a streetcar route (5 or 6 miles) through other parts of the downtown area that are more neglected, just like Bricktown was before the Canal.

Again I don't see why Bricktown needs a streetcar running through it. Would it ruin it, of course not, but it is only a few blocks wide in either direction, people walk it every day and it has already received city improvements to capitalize on. Give other parts of the downtown areas (Midtown, Auto Alley, Film Row, Arts District, Classen area, etc.) the streetcar route to further their development.

Something to think about that is all, I would like to see the most "bang for the buck".

[Kerry]

Someone also needs to remind him that fixed routes are the only things that serve development and we have a lot of infill development for residential and retail that needs to happen downtown. Does Pete White simply not notice the blocks upon blocks of empty land in the north part of Downtown/Midtown?

... or the 25% vacancy rate in the area.

Imagine if it was possible that roads and highways were not fixed routes. How many businesses would locate along Memorial Road if the city could close it at random and make all the traffic go a mile south, then in two years closed that route and make traffic go two miles north, then later closed that route and have it follow the current Memorial Road again. Needless to say, a flexable Memorial Road would not draw any businesses, apartment, or homes and people sure would not plan their lives around it becasue Memorial Road would be too unpredictable. Now substitute 'bus route' for 'Memorial Road'.

[Urban Pioneer]

Someone also needs to remind him that fixed routes are the only things that serve development and we have a lot of infill development for residential and retail that needs to happen downtown. Does Pete White simply not notice the blocks upon blocks of empty land in the north part of Downtown/Midtown? I can't imagine what he's talking about when he says OKC's downtown is already "developed."

Why do you think that he believes downtown "is already developed?" Even Automobile Alley, which many consider successful 2nd only to Bricktown, has plenty of vacant space 2nd floor and up. Not to mention blank spaces where building were bulldozed for parking lots.

That kind of rhetoric makes me think the only "development" that he is conscious of is where swaths of vacant land have a Urban Renewal "mega project."

And regarding our downtown "being small and completely walkable", how many people walk from Deep Deuce to St. Anthony's? We have really large blocks.

[betts]

The sooner we can drop the concept of 'buses' the better off we will be. After 60 years of service in every city in American they have only proven succesful in 4 or 5 of them - and those 4 or 5 have them tied to the rail system. If any form of mass transit has failed, it is buses and their flexable routes (take that Pete White).

If buses have failed, it's because we have failed to utilize/market them properly. In London, I preferentially take the bus over the tube for shorter distances. In Chicago I ride the bus regularly. When I lived in Denver I rode the bus. I don't think Pete White is completely wrong. We cannot afford to have mass transit throughout Oklahoma City via rail. Buses are logical connectors to rail transit, but they have to stop being invisible. Routes have to be simple, buses have to arrive frequently and reliably. People need to have shelter, the more attractive the better, not some particle board bench with an ad on the back sitting out in the weather.

But, they are unwieldy downtown, they're not attractive to riders at this point in time and they do not promote development, they stink and pollute. I would love to see a fleet of natural gas buses in OKC to compliment our streetcar and eventually, our commuter rail. I would do everything I could to make them attractive to riders: I'd have artists paint the outsides, I'd have t.v. and wifi on the buses and I might even have "stewardesses" serving coffee on express buses. I'd have attractive covered bus stops with touch screens showing routes, enabling you to find which buses to ride and where to transfer by entering your destination. Their flexibility is both their greatest flaw and their greatest advantage: people have to know where they can get a bus, where it goes and know they can get out of the weather while they're waiting.

[betts]

Again I don't see why Bricktown needs a streetcar running through it. Would it ruin it, of course not, but it is only a few blocks wide in either direction, people walk it every day and it has already received city improvements to capitalize on. Give other parts of the downtown areas (Midtown, Auto Alley, Film Row, Arts District, Classen area, etc.) the streetcar route to further their development.

Something to think about that is all, I would like to see the most "bang for the buck".

There's a fine line to be walked. On the one hand, you want the streetcar to go past places that are empty, unrenovated or open lots to stimulate development. On the other hand, if the streetcar only goes places one has no reason to go, then you have no ridership, which would completely hamstring any plans for future expansion. So, you need it to go past places that need to be developed while simultaneously bringing people places that are a current destination. In addition, you have to think about future expansion and plan for lines that can logically be extended elsewhere. Perhaps we'd ultimately like the streetcar to go to the river and the boathouses. If so, it would be logical to run the streetcar down Sheridan or Reno. Perhaps we'd like to encourage development of the land to the east of Bricktown and so the streetcar would help with that. There's no simple answer and everything has to be weighed carefully, considering not only the future, but also the present.

[Kerry]

betts - you can make all the fancy bus stops you want - they don't create transit oriented development. Only a fix guideway can do that.

[soonerguru]

If buses have failed, it's because we have failed to utilize/market them properly. In London, I preferentially take the bus over the tube for shorter distances. In Chicago I ride the bus regularly. When I lived in Denver I rode the bus. I don't think Pete White is completely wrong. We cannot afford to have mass transit throughout Oklahoma City via rail. Buses are logical connectors to rail transit, but they have to stop being invisible. Routes have to be simple, buses have to arrive frequently and reliably. People need to have shelter, the more attractive the better, not some particle board bench with an ad on the back sitting out in the weather.

But, they are unwieldy downtown, they're not attractive to riders at this point in time and they do not promote development, they stink and pollute. I would love to see a fleet of natural gas buses in OKC to compliment our streetcar and eventually, our commuter rail. I would do everything I could to make them attractive to riders: I'd have artists paint the outsides, I'd have t.v. and wifi on the buses and I might even have "stewardesses" serving coffee on express buses. I'd have attractive covered bus stops with touch screens showing routes, enabling you to find which buses to ride and where to transfer by entering your destination. Their flexibility is both their greatest flaw and their greatest advantage: people have to know where they can get a bus, where it goes and know they can get out of the weather while they're waiting.

Outstanding post. I would love to hear you make a statement like this in public to our city leaders.

[Kerry]

We cannot afford to have mass transit throughout Oklahoma City via rail. Buses are logical connectors to rail transit, but they have to stop being invisible. Routes have to be simple, buses have to arrive frequently and reliably. People need to have shelter, the more attractive the better, not some particle board bench with an ad on the back sitting out in the weather.

The City should not be trying to deliver mass transit to the entire city - period. It spreads the resources to thin. Mass transit of all forms should be concentrated in the 50 sq mile urban core.

[Platemaker]

Just to show all how easy it would be to use our 5-6 miles in a better way than the dreadful options presented to the city council... it's no wonder Pete White was unconvinced.

Here are two separate lines... Santa Fe to the Plaza and Santa Fe to the Paseo.... both would be 6 miles of two-way track that open downtown to actual residents and two cool districts to downtown visitors... the shaded area shows what is within three blocks of the tracks... it makes sense...connects all of downtown (including Bricktown)... and would make sense to expand upon.

[Urban Pioneer]

Not bad. How many people think Paseo and Plaza are the logical places to try to get to? If anything, in a phase 2 (being conservative here).

[Kerry]

One of the things I have noticed with the systems in Europe is that they are double tracked. This allows service in two directions at the same time and allows the system to continue to operate in case of accident or equipment malfuntion. Tampa has a single track system and it limits how many street cars they can operate at one time. No matter what the demand is they can't use more than 6 trains at the same time because they have a limited number of places for trains to pass each other.

[wsucougz]

Not bad. How many people think Paseo and Plaza are the logical places to try to get to? If anything, in a phase 2 (being conservative here).

While not likely, I think a Paseo connector makes a lot of sense. It's a big-name urban spot and the line would also get people to 23rd.

[Urban Pioneer]

One of the things I have noticed with the systems in Europe is that they are double tracked. This allows service in two directions at the same time and allows the system to continue to operate in case of accident or equipment malfuntion. Tampa has a single track system and it limits how many street cars they can operate at one time. No matter what the demand is they can't use more than 6 trains at the same time because they have a limited number of places for trains to pass each other.

Couplets can work fine if the system is designed with the proper amount of sidings and switches. It has to have the proper amount of redundancy built in.

Couplets spread development, encourage walkability, and provide a broader area reachable by streetcar. I wouldn't recommend main corridoors to be more than a block apart though. We have "wide" blocks.

[Kerry]

Doesn't the streetcar need to be in a dedicated right of way if it is going to travel in both directions on the same track? If so, would the cost of dedicated right a way cost more than just putting in two set of tracks in the existing road?

[Larry OKC]

The OKC system is being put in with 100% tax dollars so I don't know how much more subsidized it can get. ...

i thought he meant operational cost, but maybe not