Streetcar

[Doug Loudenback]

Nick, though I'm quite fond of Pete, I think that you may be ignoring the words that he actually spoke. As I said, I'll finish my review, and likely verbatim report, shortly, if not in this post in a related post. It may be tomorrow morning before that is done.

[Spartan]

Well, I just wonder what it would take for him to change his tune. I don't think he's steadfastly against the concept of the streetcar itself. As I understand it, he's just skeptical of anything he thinks will be a junket.

[Kerry]

I have to finish watching but I understand the point Pete is trying to make. I think he is way off on some of his comments about the tracks being fixed like that is a bad thing but he does make some good points as well. Someone should educate him on the history of the conversion from rail to bus and what happened.

[Spartan]

Well Pete is one of the most fixated people I've ever seen. I've argued with him before at city hall. After you make your public comment the councilors generally get to react and respond, and one time he was a huge defender of what I had to say about the convention center and another time he just took huge issue with what I had to say and made no bones about it! He almost seems like a trial lawyer, I've seen him give people hell. He isn't going to "be educated" on something.

[Doug Loudenback]

Well, I just wonder what it would take for him to change his tune. I don't think he's steadfastly against the concept of the streetcar itself. As I understand it, he's just skeptical of anything he thinks will be a junket.

At its core, Nick, is that that implicit in Pete's remarks is that it might be OK to change (perhaps eliminate) project elements which were contained in the MAPS 3 vote.

That potential has nothing to do with whether Pete likes/dislikes the transit element ... it has to do with the notion that ANY element contained in the council's resolution, e.g. transit, could be discarded by council without ANY angst in conscience.

I worried about this possibility before the vote but I cast the worry aside in favor of trusting the city to do what it promised that it would. This sort of a problem is a hugely much more important development because it strikes down to the roots of the public trusting the city, which we were asked to do before we cast our ballots.

Get it?

[Spartan]

At its core, Nick, is that that implicit in Pete's remarks is that it might be OK to change (perhaps eliminate) project elements which were contained in the MAPS 3 vote.

That potential has nothing to do with whether Pete likes/dislikes the transit element ... it has to do with the notion that ANY element contained in the council's resolution, e.g. transit, could be discarded by council without ANY angst in conscience.

I worried about this possibility before the vote but I cast the worry aside in favor of trusting the city to do what it promised that it would. This sort of a problem is a hugely much more important development because it strikes down to the roots of the public trusting the city, which we were asked to do before we cast our ballots.

Get it?

I understand what you're saying. I'm just not..emotionally ready to admit that's a possibility, in addition to the other current battles, you know. I'm trying to keep that whole nightmare off my radar from now.

On a side not, which councilor was it that said before the election that it would be political suicide to change what the voters approved? Wasn't that a Pete White quote?

[Kerry]

I was just checking out website that listed all active and planned rail transit system in the US and I came across an intersting discovery. Did anyone know El Reno has the only operating trolley in the state? Does it still run? I also found it interesting that it is powered by propane which leads me to wonder if an OKC system could be powered by natural gas.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/

[Urban Pioneer]

When I rode it, it was powered by a 454 Chevrolet engine. Lol.

We will be evaluating natural gas. There are some real costly technological and maintenance issues involved that are being assessed.

[Urban Pioneer]

When I rode it, it was powered by a 454 Chevrolet engine. Lol.

We will be evaluating natural gas. There are some real costly technological and maintenance issues involved that are being assessed.

[Kerry]

When I rode it, it was powered by a 454 Chevrolet engine. Lol.

We will be evaluating natural gas. There are some real costly technological and maintenance issues involved that are being assessed.

Well, I am all for keeping it simple. If over-head lines are the most efficient, reliable, and economic alternative then that is route I would like to take. OKC doesn't need to spend a lot of money on expiremental propulsion systems. Let San Francisco pick up that tab.

[Architect2010]

So how does the system work in terms of electricity? The overhead wires provide the electricity to the streetcars? And that power can just come from any source we might choose? ex. Natural Gas, Wind Power, etc.

[Kerry]

So how does the system work in terms of electricity? The overhead wires provide the electricity to the streetcars? And that power can just come from any source we might choose? ex. Natural Gas, Wind Power, etc.

Yep - I am sure you can have a dedicated power facility that would cut out the middle man (OG&E) and then have it also connect to the grid in case your primary sources goes down. What would be cool is to power it with some wind generators and then sell extra power back to OG&E when the system is not in use but power is still be generated (midnight to 6AM).

[Kerry]

I'm still pursuing the many links on www.railwaypreservation.com and they have a lot really good info and pictures.

Here is a picture of the new streetcar system in Marseille, FR.

[okclee]

I am not sure that Bricktown needs a streetcar running through it.

Bricktown right now is the most walkable area in Okc, why ruin that by adding a streetcar?

[Architect2010]

I am not sure that Bricktown needs a streetcar running through it. Bricktown right now is the most walkable area in Okc, why ruin that by adding a streetcar?

I don't think a streetcar would ruin Bricktown, if anything it would encourage those long-vacant lots to finally infill perhaps. The real thing is, like you said, Bricktown is already the most walkable urban neighborhood we have. Meaning it doesn't need a dedicated line running through it, but rather maybe a nearby streetcar stop. Urban Pioneer has also stated that Bricktown could be a probable location for the "hub", resulting in some much needed development down there.

[Kerry]

I am not sure that Bricktown needs a streetcar running through it.

Bricktown right now is the most walkable area in Okc, why ruin that by adding a streetcar?

Adding a street car isn't to make Bricktown more walkable - it is to bring people into Bricktown. Once the street car is put in any area that is not on or near the path is going to become deadsville.

Streetcar in shopping district of Grenoble, FR



..and in Orleans, FR

[soonerguru]

Bricktown right now is the most walkable area in Okc, why ruin that by adding a streetcar?

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are. If not, this is about the dumbest thing I've read on this site in a couple of days...

[kevinpate]

Kerry, just curious. Why would the system be planned as being down midnight to 6 am?
Wouldn't it need to run for a period past closing of pubs, any late night food haus along the route, etc.?

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm still pursuing the many links on www.railwaypreservation.com and they have a lot really good info and pictures.

Here is a picture of the new streetcar system in Marseille, FR.

I've been eyeing this system for several months. They are gorgeous trams,
(IMO). There are some cool you tube videos of these. If you could find a picture of the interior, it is just as impressive.

Every system the committee assesses has a new elements we hope to learn from to "perfect ours". For example, while this one is simply beautiful, a practical take away is the use of the large LED headlight at the top. It can change colors. That enables all the trams to project "what color they are", depicting the route they serve. This is particularly beneficial at night, where painted cab colors or digital signage might require waiting for it to be a block away before knowing if it was the "right line" to reach your destination. These LEDS expand the "perceptual experience" enabling the pedestrian to make a decision to go or wait from 6 blocks away.

It is the small stuff that we learn from each system that combined, makes a big difference. Lines on the map are important, but how a system is interpereted by a first time user is just as important to it's ultimate success and people's confidence in it.

[Kerry]

Every system the committee assesses has a new elements we hope to learn from to "perfect ours". For example, while this one is simply beautiful, a practical take away is the use of the large LED headlight at the top. It can change colors. That enables all the trams to project "what color they are", depicting the route they serve. This is particularly beneficial at night, where painted cab colors or digital signage might require waiting for it to be a block away before knowing if it was the "right line" to reach your destination. These LEDS expand the "perceptual experience" enabling the pedestrian to make a decision to go or wait from 6 blocks away.

It is the small stuff that we learn from each system that combined, makes a big difference. Lines on the map are important, but how a system is interpereted by a first time user is just as important to it's ultimate success and people's confidence in it.

One of the coolest things I have seen in my recent investigation are the induction tracks used in some places in France. They pick up power from a buried magnetic field so no third rail and no over-head power lines or poles.

[Kerry]

Kerry, just curious. Why would the system be planned as being down midnight to 6 am?
Wouldn't it need to run for a period past closing of pubs, any late night food haus along the route, etc.?

I was just basing that time on when other system were shut down. For all I know the OKC system could shut down at 11PM Sunday thru Thursday and 2AM Friday and Saturday.

[Rover]

I wouldn't expect the rail system here to be comparable to Grenoble, Marseille, or much of anywhere else in Europe for that matter. The cities are very different, and the price of gas alone is about 4 times what it is here. Plus, they have grown up with the idea of getting on a train or trolley. It will have to be a cultivated activity here.

[soonerguru]

One of the coolest things I have seen in my recent investigation are the induction tracks used in some places in France. They pick up power from a buried magnetic field so no third rail and no over-head power lines or poles.

I'm pretty sure Urban Pioneer is aware of this technology.

[Kerry]

I wouldn't expect the rail system here to be comparable to Grenoble, Marseille, or much of anywhere else in Europe for that matter. The cities are very different, and the price of gas alone is about 4 times what it is here. Plus, they have grown up with the idea of getting on a train or trolley. It will have to be a cultivated activity here.

Some of what I have been reading about in France is how all the local rail systems were dismantled during WWII. The only thing they have had since then is high-speed rail. For the last 25 years they have been rebuilding all local street car system from scratch. Local rail is as new to the people of France as it is to the people of Oklahoma.

http://www.trams-in-france.net/reloa...startseite.htm

After World War II, nearly all of the urban tramway systems in France disappeared completely, leaving only three network torsos in Lille, Marseille and Saint-Étienne. But then, the tramway came back, beginning with Nantes in 1985, followed by Grenoble in 1987, Paris in 1992, Strasbourg and Rouen in 1994, Montpellier, Orléans and Lyon in 2000, Bordeaux in 2003, Mulhouse and Valenciennes in 2006 and finally Le Mans and Nice in 2007. More systems will open in the next few years. In this way, France boasts about a quarter of all new tramway systems built worldwide since the eighties. Nearly every French agglomeration will have a guided mass-transit system in a few years.

[Kerry]

If you get the chance, take a look at Orleans, France on Google Earth and follow their streetcar tracks through the city. Very impressive setup.