Mysteries of the Universe - oooooooooo

[bombermwc]

OK so to diverge from the aetheist thread - I'd like to see what others view on a few of the questions that man has struggled with from day 1.

Before - What was before. If you're a believer in the Big Bang (which I am), what was before? The universe continues to expand, but will that be an infinite expansion? If so, what IS past the edge of the universe....therefore, what is the universe expanding into? Counter to that - If the universe instead rubber-bands back and is cyclical, that's a whole other can of worms. Does the universe expand to a certain point until it collapses back in on itself causing another bang, starting the process all over again?

Are you cross-eyed yet?

Coallesense - OK, so there is enough evidence to show HOW a planet and star form from the collection of material. That material comes from other stars death, nebulae, particulates, etc. But what starts the process? Why was there a collection point at the point where Sol formed instead of some other point in the sky? Same goes for each planet. Leading back to the previous question, where did that matter come from? If it was all created at the time of the bang and then expanded out, where was it before....dark or otherwise?

Speed/time/gravity - OK so relativity shows us certain things in the universe. But the assumptiomn is that the speed of light is constant. We know that is is not though. It has changed several times in the history of the universe and in our short time we've observed it, hasn't had long enough to change again. Before you go crazy on that one, it has been proven that it has not always been constant. The quick and dirty explanataion involves the age of the universe in comparison to how far certain things have traveled in the universe compared to where the speed of light says they should be. Basically we can see that things are farther out than the speend of light should allow them to be, therefore, they traveled faster than the current speed of light (otherwise we wouldn't be able to see them because their light wouldn't have reached us yet). So pair that with the theory of gravity that we have now (imagine a ball rolling around on a piece of fabric held taunt...it creates a depression as it rolls. That shows a "bending" of space. That can be seen by observing the refraction of light around an object where we previously thought it would simply be blocked like an eclipse). So if space is bent by gravity, and the speed of light is not constant, relativity effects the passage of time the closer you get to the speed of light,.....what's to say we can't use those forces to go faster than light? Current thoughts say if you travel the speed of light, and throw a ball, it won't travel and faster. I don't buy that because of how gravity works....if you throw a ball inside a car, it is traveling across the surface of the earth at the speed of the car + the speed you threw it. How would that not apply to the ball thrown while already at the speed of light? It would then go even faster...breaking that barrier. I feel like that "barrier" is man-made and we simply haven't found a way to get past it yet. Remember the sound barrier "could never be broken" but it was.

[OKCisOK4me]

Before - This sounds kinda shallow but if I were to have a belief based on this hypothesis (and I came up with this thought when I was a freshman in high school) then there was a Big Crunch before the Big Bang. Yes, the universe collapsed on itself and then reignited back to where it is in the present. It is in these separate universes that I believe everything is the same. For me, the choices I make in this universe were already made in the previous universe. This is where I think deja vu comes in. I don't believe in the scientific explanation of deja vu being a splicing and dicing of random thoughts strung together in your head to create one thought in which you say to yourself, "hey, I've done this before". That's right, you have--in the previous universe. This also leads me to believe that choice is an illusion. Because of the previous universe, your fate has already been set before you. You may go crazy between doing this and doing that and when you look back on the choice you made you ask yourself, "how come I didn't take the other fork in the road?". That's because it never existed. That's because our mind creates the illusion. In all honesty, I think whoever created the universe, be it God or a 7th grader on a more cosmic scale playing with chemicals in science lab, we have all been here before. Unfortunately the soul does not allow us to retain the memories of our good or bad human experiences.

I've put a lot of thought into that theory but I really don't know what to think about it because of books I've read on space and multiverses. Michio Kaku wrote a book entitled 'Parallel Worlds' in which he discusses the subject of multiple universes. Each universe is connected to the other via the infamous worm hole. Some believe that a worm hole and a black hole are the same thing. Others believe that a worm hole will transmit you to a different placement in the space of the same universe, travelling thousands of light years in one single bound that may only take a second. And, yet, others believe that black holes devour you completely never to return. Either way, it is my judgement that black holes send you to another universe. These other universes, you still exist, yet you may have a different career path and the choice that the you of you makes in those universes ultimately crosses the boundaries of this universe giving you that disillusion of choice.

None of us are experts so it is all pure speculation, but it is something I enjoy 'philosophizing' over.

Coallesense - Honestly, I think this is all random chance set up over billions of years. That is all.

Speed/time/gravity - Man, so much to say about this subject. I'm gonna keep it short and sweet. The author mentioned above has another book entitled 'Hyperspace'. I've read it 5-6 times and bought it twice. Also you may want to check out some Brian Greene books if you haven't done so already--'Elegant Universe' and 'The Fabric of Space and Time'. Both head spinners! Also, the facts in this next one will make you feel infinitesimally small. 'Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries' by Neil deGrasse Tyson.

You talk about that ball and about how if you're driving 50+ and you toss it in the same direction at 5mph, then technically it's moving 55 or more. You forgot to factor in the rotation of the planet (1,000+ mph), and the speed of the earth rotating around Sol (67,000 mph), Sol and its surrounding planets are rotating around the galaxy at roughly 514,000 mph, and I've Googled 'how fast does the Milky Way Galaxy move (since it is known that it is on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy) but I've found no answer to that. Judging by the leaps between each note, I'd assume it's over 1,000,000 mph. Needless to say, everything is moving all the time. Light is not constant because we can't see what's on the far side of the universe. Makes my head spin just thinking about all of it. It's nearly impossible to fathom.

Thanks for bringing up the subject, though. Best topic yet to reply to!

[bombermwc]

Interesting view - I wouldn't have thought about the multiverse perspective. Sort of does go with the rubber band theory.

Most of the time, I enjoy Mr. Kaku's show...a bit cheesey at times, but that's sort of the point of his show. But it's stlil interesting.

And that's EXACTLLY the haed spinner for sure on the light thing. I never would have thought about the spinning/orbit/etc. It's enough to make your noodle fip!

[Wacokid]

Big question, to be sure. The Question. Some say that the brightest among us, with degrees PhD and Divinity, having a career in Physics and the avocation of metaphysics, are no closer to pinning down the unknowable answer than Lucy was when she looked into an African night sky. The capacity to wonder about it distinguishes me from my dog Wiley, whose ancestors have totally missed the need to invent God. He's lucky to be sure, but when he swims he can only dog paddle.

[MikeOKC]

The question of all questions. I have dealt with these issues for years from a scientific, theological and philosophical perspective and have concluded that I am a true Mysterian. I think it all ties in to the mystery of consciousness; for without consciousness there is no universe to observe in a practical sense. As a 'New Mysterian', I have finally accepted that the answers to these questions are far beyond our comprehension. Just as a cat cannot grasp the complexities of algebra, humankind cannot come close to comprehending the mystery of consciousness and the universe. The possibilities are so fantastic as to not even bother - as it is all so incredible. Could everything we see, touch, smell, hear....our bodies, cities, oceans, everything on this planet, everything in our universe, be nothing more than a cell inside something much larger that's inside something even larger that is but a spec of something even beyond the word "large?" I love to speculate, as we all do, but I accept that the Mysterian acceptance is the only thing that gives me peace and keeps me sane.

By the way, it was this John Derbyshire piece that set me out to explore the Mysterian road. I've always thought Derbyshire brilliant, even as I disagreed with him on many things. But on this question - he (and now many others from the Mysterian philosophy) - literally changed my life.

[kevinpate]

Now don't sell cats short, at least not in public. As the ultimate Masters of the Universe, cats don't like it when the minions get uppity in public.

Merry Holidays and Frappy New Years

[semisimple]

Currently we can only speculate about the origin of the universe prior to the big bang. Theoretical physicists (such as Michio Kaku) like to propose ideas for what happened prior to the big bang, but it is little more than conjecture (and nonetheless fun to think about).

Right now high-energy and theoretical physicists are, as they say, still trying to piece together what happened immediately after the big bang. In other words--tracing the evolution of the universe (the standard model) and the unification of the four fundamental forces. This is still the frontier of cosmology and may be the limit of our scientific knowledge.

We still do not know what dark energy or dark matter 'is' and what exactly its role is. Research in this direction may bolster certain hypotheses about what will happen to the universe in the future, but it remains to be seen if it will help us understand the past especially prior to the big bang.

[OKCisOK4me]

By the way, it was this John Derbyshire piece that set me out to explore the Mysterian road. I've always thought Derbyshire brilliant, even as I disagreed with him on many things. But on this question - he (and now many others from the Mysterian philosophy) - literally changed my life.

That was a great read. I emailed the link to someone else I know. Have you ever read 'Gods, Genes, and Consciousness' by Paul von Ward?

[bombermwc]

MikeOKC - rather than accept that it's "too big to understand", I'd rather attempt to figure it out. I don't want to roll over and just give up...where's the fun in that? Yeah, we're going to get it wrong a LOT on the way, but that's part of the journey. Think about how much more we understand compared to 50 or 100 years ago. There's so much that we don't know still, but you won't know until you try and figuer it out. Now, we may never understand it enough to say, sit down one day and create a small universe of our own. But in the millions of years life has left on this Earth, surely we'll unravel more. The last 100 years have been a HUGE change in the understanding of the universe. And even when this Earth is gone, one can hope that by that point, humans have ventured beyond our small marble to other places so that the journey can continue even then.

[HewenttoJared]

Not even bother? That's everything that is wrong with religion...

[MikeOKC]

Guys, You really need to understand what the Mysterian philosophy is all about. It's not a matter of "not bothering." One thing I hate about organized religion is the dogmatism and I'm not interested in a need to defend anything. But the last couple of posts miss the point. Mysterians include noted scientists. It's about actually believing BIG - very big. It's not even about not speculating. It's about the recognition that it's so big that there are things that we simply cannot begin to know what we don't know!

It's also very much about connection between our own consciousness (the biggest unexplained mystery of them all) and the rest of the universe(s) and the enormity of that connection. It's not that it's just undiscovered - it's that it is incomprehensible to the human mind. There's a big difference and if you're interested, read a little about New Mysterians.

But as I said in my first post - I love to speculate with the best of them.
Interesting thread, bombermwc!

[Matt]

[Joe Daddy]

[HewenttoJared]

Guys, You really need to understand what the Mysterian philosophy is all about. It's not a matter of "not bothering." One thing I hate about organized religion is the dogmatism and I'm not interested in a need to defend anything. But the last couple of posts miss the point. Mysterians include noted scientists. It's about actually believing BIG - very big. It's not even about not speculating. It's about the recognition that it's so big that there are things that we simply cannot begin to know what we don't know!

It's also very much about connection between our own consciousness (the biggest unexplained mystery of them all) and the rest of the universe(s) and the enormity of that connection. It's not that it's just undiscovered - it's that it is incomprehensible to the human mind. There's a big difference and if you're interested, read a little about New Mysterians.

But as I said in my first post - I love to speculate with the best of them.
Interesting thread, bombermwc!

I think that assuming any topic is incomprehensible is a useless and awful way to approach the world. There are Nobel scientists who are creationists, it doesn't lend respect to ideas to simply tick off a famous name who agrees with you.

[bombermwc]

JoeDaddy - I think you missed the point of this thread. We're not disputing faith/non-faith on this thread. The videos, while interesting, have a better place on the aetheism thread.

To get back to a topic - too bad whe don't have a theoretical physicist among us, cause I'd love to have someone discuss the possibilties of this one with me. I don't really have enough knowledge on the subject to accurately make a conjecture.....but I'll try anyway.

OK - so I don't personally feel that the speed of light is a barrier we can't break, we just have to get technology and understanding of the universe to the point where we can actually start examining that in a less "closed" thought process. BUT, for a moment assume that it's true and we can't do it. What's the plausibility of a "fold" being the method of transport rather than direct path? Imagine a piece of paper....fold it in half and then punch a hole through both sides with a pencil and you can push the pencil out the other side. So in effect, the pencil took a "curved" route on a "stright" line from point A to point B but withouth actually moving on a line between the points. Since we know gravity has that effect on the universe (see my first post about bending light), is it plausible to control that effect in a way that it allows more than just a bend of light, but also of matter?

And to that, without being too much of a Treckie here, there's your transporter. While you're at it, why not convert matter as well...turn an old shirt into sunday dinner and BAM world hunger is solved.

[Joe Daddy]

JoeDaddy - I think you missed the point of this thread. We're not disputing faith/non-faith on this thread. The videos, while interesting, have a better place on the aetheism thread.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Bomber....I should have written in some qualifying info with the videos. There were quite a few interesting points along the lines of this thread within those two videos, and the overlying theme was "the mysteries of the universe". I really didn't intend to inject Atheism into the debate so much as to introduce some points in the vids I found interesting, plus there's some humor there I got a chuckle out of.

[OKCisOK4me]

...turn an old shirt into sunday dinner and BAM world hunger is solved.

Except that we need to be able to get off this rock before that happens or BAM overpopulation!!

[bombermwc]

Agreed. We're already overpopulated...at an unsustainable level....and growing. India and China still account for the largest growth....especially India in the last 50 years OMG. What's so surprisising is that the US is #3....albeit a far distant 3.