Streetcar

[Spartan]

OK, great. I didn't know Midwest City was going to cost the same as an airport line or anything like that (in which case not the opportunity I thought it was). Thanks for the info, Jeff. Check you inbox, by the way, when you get a chance.

[Popsy]

I have been wanting to ask a question of the forum's urbanist for some time now. As I understand it, you want infill to occur and you want deanexation of the city or a ban on any sprawl until the infill is completed, yet you seem to be all for the rail from Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and even west to El Reno. Since the rail only makes it easier to get to a job in downtown OKC, is it not more of a reason to live in the suburbs than to build in the city on land that no one has seemed motivated to build on in the past. Is your fascination with trains more compelling than your urbanistic convictions? It is somewhat confusing.

[Kerry]

I have been wanting to ask a question of the forum's urbanist for some time now. As I understand it, you want infill to occur and you want deanexation of the city or a ban on any sprawl until the infill is completed, yet you seem to be all for the rail from Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and even west to El Reno. Since the rail only makes it easier to get to a job in downtown OKC, is it not more of a reason to live in the suburbs than to build in the city on land that no one has seemed motivated to build on in the past. Is your fascination with trains more compelling than your urbanistic convictions? It is somewhat confusing.

No, we want Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and El Reno to be urban also. Train stations in those towns will encourage people in those communities to live closer to them. It is a win-win. It can stop the urban sprawl from spawing its own sprawl. Yo only need to look at California's Inland Empire to see what happens when sprawl generates its own sprawl. It took California a while to realize what they considered 'progress' to just be repeating the same mistakes, only faster.

[Popsy]

Kerry,

Are you saying it is more important to try to make the suburbs urban that it is to address the city's infill problem?

[Architect2010]

I didn't get that all from him. We have a streetcar that will eventually expand and traverse the inner-city to help infill take place. A commuter train is another convenient form of transportation other than a highway, street, and a car. It relieves congestion in more urban cities and I think here in OKC a commuter would really just promote the inner-city as it will be the point of intersect, the "hub" if you will. It is the cultural nest of the city, is urban, has the highest concentration of entertainment options in the metro, and will be home to the street-car as well. I just don't think a commuter train will result in sprawl the way that the highway and personal automobile does.

[Kerry]

Kerry,

Are you saying it is more important to try to make the suburbs urban that it is to address the city's infill problem?

Let me re-address this a different way. If someone wants to go from Norman to OKC to watch a basketball game what options do they have to get there. Right now there is only one and that is a car. That car has to drive on congested downtown street and be parked somewhere. If commuter rail was in place they could leave the car in Norman and not drive it all. That frees up space downtown that would be used for parking and reduces congestion. While those are good benefits, transit oriented development is still the big payoff. A train from OKC to Norman would result in urban in-fill development at both ends (and at stations along the way like in Moore). One of the big mistakes made with rail is large park and ride lots. That does nothing to discourage sprawl. Atlanta is a prime example of this failure. Park and ride lots actually encourage more sprawl.

If you look at how England has developed, they are still tightly packed towns regardless of population. Everyone wants to be as close to trains station as they can. This has not changed much with the introduction of the automobile. When rural Englanders go to London they take a train, they don't drive their car to London.

[Spartan]

Popsy, I just support good development, good infrastructure, and good growth. If the growth happens in Norman or downtown OKC, I'm happy either way. I think it is going to be paramount to get suburban buy-in if Central Oklahoma is to become more urban, sustainable, and better-planned.

[soonerguru]

Popsy, I just support good development, good infrastructure, and good growth. If the growth happens in Norman or downtown OKC, I'm happy either way. I think it is going to be paramount to get suburban buy-in if Central Oklahoma is to become more urban, sustainable, and better-planned.

Be careful using that "sustainable" word. The Edmond crazy wingnut faction will start lecturing you on the UN takeover of America's sovereign rights.

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1112682

[Spartan]

Wow, yeah, I saw that. I just don't know what to say to that.

[Urban Pioneer]

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-agency-ga...#ixzz18lEa7sBg

[soonerguru]

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-agency-ga...#ixzz18lEa7sBg

I saw this and didn't know what to think of it. Is this a good deal?

[ChowRunner]

This morning on the radio I heard a sound bite played from what I assumed was yesterdays council meeting. It was of Pete White saying that he ne longer supports the trolley project because he did not see an advantage of spending 120 million dollars that will only cover about 5 miles of track. He does not see this being an advantage to regular citizens.

I have looked everywhre for a story on this but can't find it anywhere. Anyone know where I can find his quote so I can read it in context or a link to the audio?

[Kerry]

Good thing it isn't up to Pete White.

[warreng88]

I follow Steve Lackmeyer on Twitter and he said he was "watching the city council meeting replay; streetcar won't go into or near Bricktown. What's up with that?" I would think the streetcar would at least go down Reno between the OKC Arena and CCC and possible down EK Gaylord.

[Tier2City]

I think Steve may have been focusing on Rick Cain's first slide showing what is evolving into one of the top alternatives for the north-south axis. I simply can't believe that the streetcar won't serve Bricktown and on Rick's second slide there are options on how that east-west axis would work. The Sheridan BNSF bridge could present some problems with height and foundations but I would think high priority would be given to a solution that does get the streetcar into the core of Bricktown.

[Platemaker]

A person working in the core of downtown (Park and Robinson) wants to eat in Bricktown for lunch he can walk the distance no problem... OR... maybe he waits 5-10 minutes for the next streetcar to take him to Santa Fe Depot then he walks the rest of the two maybe three blocks.... the streetcar needs to be about EXPANDING the area that is already walkable.

If the streetcar serves Santa Fe Depot... then it serves Bricktown. Bricktown is entirely walkable for current residents, downtown workers, and hotel visitors already. If we stop concentrating on having a stop at the front door of every current attraction then 5 miles of track can go a lot farther than some think.

[betts]

The presentation showed a suggested core route that does not go into Bricktown. However, there is an "add on" route that does go to and through Bricktown. This is all prelminary work, with more definitive decisions to come over the next few months.

[okclee]

betts, can you give a more detailed description of the presentation streetcar route?

I do understand this is all in the preliminary stages.

[Urban Pioneer]

The "core" route depicted did not reflect the other sections and extremities of the proposed starter system. Let's discuss this more in February/March when better information is created.

You also have to keep in mind that what Rick depicted is where the AA committee "might be headed". It is not a reflection of the MAPS Transit subcommittee as we have not started our own discussions yet.

[Urban Pioneer]

I saw this and didn't know what to think of it. Is this a good deal?

I think it might be fine.

[Doug Loudenback]

I've just picked up in this thread with the discussion surrounding the trolley route and whether it will or won't or may or may not go into Bricktown, and the comments made about what Pete White may have said. I haven't heard the council meeting's video but now I think that I will, assuming I can find it.

IF (and that's a big IF) Pete and/or other council members think that it's OK to change the projects we were told we were voting on in MAPS 3 ... which is certainly doable since the projects are not set in stone since only a council resolution identified them, not the specific ballot, and so a subsequent council resolution could change that ... which is a concern/criticism which many had of the MAPS 3 procedure ... but IF city council should opt to cut a project (e.g., the transit element) after what we went through in the MAPS 3 campaign, one can rest assured that MAPS 3 will be the end of the MAPS line because of the enormously huge breach of trust that would be generated by such a move.

All that said, I'll be surprised to hear Pete say that during the council meeting replay. But, I've been surprised before. We shall see. After I've located the council meeting replay and heard it, I'll report what I heard here unless someone else does so before then.

[leprechaun]

I don't understand how somebody who cares about the future of OKC could be against the streetcar. Out of all the MAPS projects, it will have the biggest impact by far, and if I remember correctly it will be roughly a third of the cost of the convention center, which seems to be farther down the priority list to everybody but city leaders. I strongly believe that it will get the ball rolling in developing the inner city. The streetcar is an investment that will take years to see FULL results, and I'm sure there will be plenty of naysayers when people don't see the inner city transform after a month. I doubt it will happen, but if the streetcar gets scrapped it would prove to me that OKC still doesn't "get it". There are plenty of other cities across the country begging for funding for a streetcar. We have the dedicated funding, I can't imagine why we wouldn't take advantage of that. Like Doug said, we can forget about any future MAPS projects if leaders don't follow through.

[Doug Loudenback]

I've now listened and watched the 12/21 City Council meeting and have recorded the audio of the same. If you want to see the meeting, go here: http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgview...doctype=AGENDA. The discussion about the present topic begins at about hour 1:13 of the council meeting.

I'm taking a few minutes to digest what I've just heard before I reach any final conclusions. Preliminary conclusions are that Council Member White did, in fact, imply that the streetcar component of Maps 3 be dumped even though he never explicitly said so. I'm still rehearing what I heard and thinking through it, so I might change my mind on what I've just said.

I'll have the full audio available shortly. But, until then, kudos to Betts (Betts here but Jill Adler before the City Council) for her brilliant citizen comments defending the general transit element contained in Maps 3 before council on December 21.

It is perhaps worth adding that Pete White and Jill Adler are both friends of mine. I'll have the full audio available shortly, probably in another thread.

[Kerry]

I'll add that you can start watching at the 1:13 mark which is when the rail discussion begins.

[Spartan]

Pete White is pro-rail. He's not against the streetcar. I actually agree with him, too (just not to the extent that the funding should be pulled if the route stinks). He says it's just going to be a damn tourist trolley and I think we can all agree that would be a waste of money. Let Pete pull his weight and try and knock some heads together. What AA has come up with sucks, quite simply.

AA has done a lot of good work, but most of their ideas have had me quite disappointed actually. I'm confident the right ideas will gain the most traction.