Can OKC Learn From Tulsa's Vision 2025?

[blangtang]

didn't see this posted yet, but its by the BOK center

"Tulsa's former City Hall will soon become an Aloft hotel, and the vacated downtown YMCA is on the way to becoming a retail and residential space.

The modernist hotel brand was the best fit for the 40-year-old, 11-story former city office building, said Macy Amatucci, vice president of Brickhugger LLC and a member of TOCH LLC - the group that purchased the 2.5-acre site with plans to convert it into a 200-room hotel at a cost of $22 million to $25 million.

http//www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20101217_32_A 1_Tulsas817951

[Spartan]

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.

[BG918]

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.

OKC has built a LOT more units in the past decade than in Tulsa. The higher number in Tulsa has a lot to do with there being more highrise apartment buildings in and around downtown that were mostly built in the 60's and 70's. OKC could use more office/vacant building conversions like what Tulsa has been doing and Tulsa could use more large-scale new development like Legacy, Deep Deuce and 2nd St lofts. Besides Renaissance and the Central Park townhomes there hasn't been very much new construction development in downtown Tulsa while there has been a lot in downtown OKC.

[Rover]

I worked at 5th & Boston in Tulsa in the mid-late 70s and lived at the Center Plaza apartments/condos. Loved being able to walk to work. And, there was a Safeway across the street. However, one of the differences in OKC and Tulsa seemed to be the actual downtown was smaller in Tulsa (though more tall bldgs.) and therefore there were more actual homes close in, especially towards the river. Do these homes count as downtown residences? If so, it would be like counting Heritage Hills. Just curious how each count "downtown" residences.

[Spartan]

Well the Riverview neighborhood isn't anything like Heritage Hills, even though it has a few lots that still have great old mansions on them, maybe even a full street that's still mansions. But most of the Riverview neighborhood has been taken over by apartment/condo complexes and towers, and its relation to DT Tulsa feels kind of like SoSA's relation to DT OKC. I guess Riverview/Uptown is Tulsa's 1970s version of C2S, but it just feels much more connected to DT for some reason despite the south leg of the IDL..

Heritage Hills-like would be Maple Ridge, which is just south and east of Uptown.

OKC has built a LOT more units in the past decade than in Tulsa. The higher number in Tulsa has a lot to do with there being more highrise apartment buildings in and around downtown that were mostly built in the 60's and 70's. OKC could use more office/vacant building conversions like what Tulsa has been doing and Tulsa could use more large-scale new development like Legacy, Deep Deuce and 2nd St lofts. Besides Renaissance and the Central Park townhomes there hasn't been very much new construction development in downtown Tulsa while there has been a lot in downtown OKC.

I agree with that. Most of Tulsa's large empty buildings are in Uptown, whereas OKC's large empty buildings are basically downtown. I think in this regard, OKC has much better prospects for apt/condo tower conversion because it's all about the available building stock for that. I think Tulsa's Deep Deuce and Bricktown-like areas are Blue Dome and Brady, which are definitely starting to heat up with downtown housing projects. You're seeing a lot of the historic building stock taken care of and renovated to mixed-use which hasn't happened as much in Bricktown, and they're also seeing a large share of infill like GreenArch, the Fairfield hotel, and other cool infill projects.

[Rover]

So, my question is, what areas constitute downtown Tulsa residential vs OKC downtown residential?

[Spartan]

I guess Tulsa is the IDL plus the tiny little arena south of there. OKC would probably be from Western to 235, from I-40 to NW 13th or so. I can say that the U.S. Census considers downtown OKC a "low population area" and doesn't even do demographic info for that area. They do for downtown Tulsa.

I think you'd have to have a fairly large geographic area to get 6,000 residents in downtown OKC, which I believe is what it's up to last I saw.

[Rover]

My impression is that the CBD in Tulsa is smaller than OKC and that the residential areas start closer in. OKC has more vacant lots on the outskirts of its CBD. OKC would have the opportunity to add quite a bit of population quickly even without high rise residential in its core.

[Spartan]

It's a draw. Tulsa's residential is mostly in Uptown, across the IDL, but the future is all Brady..incredible amount of infill about to break ground in there. Tulsa has the densest street (Boston Avenue is incredible, and starting to see a lot of residential), but I think OKC has the denser downtown core. OKC also probably has the deader downtown core. Tulsa is trying to emulate Bricktown and Deep Deuce, though.

[Rover]

Unless it has changed a lot recently, I wouldn't say OKC CBD is more dead than Tulsa. But that's just an observation.

Before I moved I also lived around 21st and Boston and worked at 5th and Boston. I wouldn't say Boston is all that happening any more now than then.

[Oil Capital]

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.

One has to use a very expansive definition of downtown Tulsa to come up with a population of 5,000. Downtown Tulsa is generally considered to be the area within the Inner Dispersal Loop. The US Census Bureau conveniently includes the entire IDL area in one census tract. The TOTAL population was 3,506 and that includes prisoners. The total population in households (which is really the number we're talking about) was 1,211.

Oklahoma City is a little more difficult because (1) the downtown is less clearly defined and (2) by any definition, the Census Bureau has divided it up into many census tracts. My quick stab at defining downtown OKC by Census Tracts includes the following census tracts: 1025, 1032, 1031.01, 1030, 1038, 1031.02, 1036.01, and 1037, which defines an area roughly bounded by Western, 13th street, I-235, and I-40 (Tract 1037 goes south of I-40 and takes in an area that will be part of downtown in years to come.)

The 2000 US Census numbers for downtown OKC, defined as above, were: 5,553 total population and 2,953 population in households.

[Spartan]

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

[BG918]

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

It's the same argument you get from people in OKC that say Midtown is separate from downtown, while others will say downtown OKC goes from I-40 north to NW 13 (before it turns into Heritage Hills) and includes Midtown (NW 9 to NW 13), and from Classen east to I-235. Some will say Tulsa's downtown is only the area inside the IDL, and that Uptown/Riverview is still midtown. If Uptown/Riverview is included that increases the population for 'downtown' quite a bit because that is the highest density residential neighborhood in Tulsa. This neighborhood is bordered by the river to the west, Maple Ridge neighborhood to the south and east, and downtown north of Hwy 75/51 (the IDL). There is not really an area like that in OKC with multiple apartment towers and midrises, though Deep Deuce and the Triangle are getting there.

[Spartan]

I would also say it's a mixed-use neighborhood, with a moderate bar scene beginning to develop along South Boston, which has enormous potential for more intensive uses that it currently has, which are a lot of quaint shops, offices, and townhomes.

There were some interesting development proposals along Veterans Park before the economy crashed, maybe they'll resurface soon.

[Oil Capital]

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

As someone who has lived in Tulsa for 11+ years, I completely disagree. It is just not true that Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa. I have known a bunch of people who have lived and worked in Uptown Tulsa over the years, and not one of them has ever described where they live/work as being "downtown Tulsa". It only becomes part of downtown Tulsa when Tulsa boosters want to juice up their downtown residential numbers.

[Spartan]

I guess we can agree with that. We all just kind of defer to the people behind the scenes, and they're all juicing the numbers up.

DT Tulsa Unlimited or whatever their booster group is counts Uptown. I personally count Midtown as a downtown OKC neighborhood, but there's not a highway between the two either..

[Oil Capital]

I guess we can agree with that. We all just kind of defer to the people behind the scenes, and they're all juicing the numbers up.

DT Tulsa Unlimited or whatever their booster group is counts Uptown. I personally count Midtown as a downtown OKC neighborhood, but there's not a highway between the two either..

No doubt chambers of commerce and organization such as DT Tulsa Unlimited tend to juice their numbers. That's why I do not defer to the people behind the scenes, but prefer to go with the hard unbiased facts provided by the US Census Bureau.

[Spartan]

I do think it's significant though that the map I saw defined DT OKC as a low-population area and didn't even show demographic trends for it. I didn't see that for other cities' downtowns, not even Tulsa's. Hell, not even STL's CBD.

[Oil Capital]

I do think it's significant though that the map I saw defined DT OKC as a low-population area and didn't even show demographic trends for it. I didn't see that for other cities' downtowns, not even Tulsa's. Hell, not even STL's CBD.

Probably entirely the result of the formatting of the Census Tracts. As mentioned above, what is normally and realistically considered downtown OKC is divided up into eight different census tracts, while all of downtown Tulsa is one single census tract. If one were to divide downtown Tulsa similarly, there is little doubt that at least one of those census tracts would have had no demographic trends as well (especially in the 2000 census).

[Rover]

It's the same argument you get from people in OKC that say Midtown is separate from downtown, while others will say downtown OKC goes from I-40 north to NW 13 (before it turns into Heritage Hills) and includes Midtown (NW 9 to NW 13), and from Classen east to I-235. Some will say Tulsa's downtown is only the area inside the IDL, and that Uptown/Riverview is still midtown. If Uptown/Riverview is included that increases the population for 'downtown' quite a bit because that is the highest density residential neighborhood in Tulsa. This neighborhood is bordered by the river to the west, Maple Ridge neighborhood to the south and east, and downtown north of Hwy 75/51 (the IDL). There is not really an area like that in OKC with multiple apartment towers and midrises, though Deep Deuce and the Triangle are getting there.

Other than Center Plaza and the round tower south of downtown (which isn't really downtown), what other residential towers are there in downtown Tulsa now? CP was built 40 years ago and the round one pre-dates it, so what ones have been built in the last decade or so?

[BG918]

Other than Center Plaza and the round tower south of downtown (which isn't really downtown), what other residential towers are there in downtown Tulsa now? CP was built 40 years ago and the round one pre-dates it, so what ones have been built in the last decade or so?

University Club (the round tower) is the tallest at 30+ stories at 17th & Carson, and another 8 story apartment building next to it. Central Park condos are two 20+ story towers at 7th & Elwood. There is a 30 story highrise condo tower at 15th & Boulder. Sophia Plaza is 10 stories I think at 15th & Frisco. 2300 Riverside is over 20 stories at 23rd & Riverside. There are a few others but those are the tallest, and you are correct none have been built since the late 70's and they are not downtown (except Central Park) but in Uptown/Riverview just south of downtown. There was a proposal for an 18 story condo tower at 21st & Main in the late 90's but it was shot down by Maple Ridge NIMBY's.

[soonerguru]

Tulsa is doing some incredible things downtown, and they are the kinds of things we want more of in OKC. That they're able to leverage dollars from Vision 2025 to repurpose buildings to residential and retail to me is definitely something we could learn from. I know the Snyder's and they are like angels for Downtown Tulsa.

As a proud OKC resident, I for one am thrilled to see Tulsa moving forward!

[Rover]

According to Tulsa's own reporting, the aggregate of downtown and near downtown (feeder) neighborhoods has actually DECREASED in population since 1990 and 2000 by a little more than 500 people. Downtown has less than 1,000 residents. Riverview/Uptown was the single biggest loser over the time frame.

Single males made up almost half of the core area with few families. Over half of the households in the Downtown Area Neighborhoods have incomes of less than $25,000 with 35% less than $15,000 per household.

[Floyd]

Here is a fairly in-depth, up-to-date study on downtown housing in Tulsa. http://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/812...s%20report.pdf

[Rover]

One of the most telling things in the Tulsa report, and probably holds true in OKC as well, was that by far the majority of respondants to the survey state that they want to be downtown but won't move there unless it costs them the same or less money. That means that unless the properites are subsidized, it isn't going to happen on a large scale. New construction and retrofit of older buildings just cost more, not less. And downtown generally costs more, not less. I think the best thing is to get first timer's to buy and rent downtown BEFORE they get accustomed to the prices in the suburbs. That supports the contention that lower cost "for-rent" property is the most promising for developers.

I always read the studies and take them with a grain of salt. Everyone wants things but few want to pay for them. The real test is when the properties actually go on the market. The OKC downtown demand in the study in 2005 was very rosy. (BTW, I think it is the same company that produced the Tulsa report.) Extrapolating numbers is easy.

Overly optimistic reports are a major reason why we have had the real estate collapses we have had. Every major project I have worked on that is now unfinished and in bankruptcy started with a great forecast of demand. The scepticism now forced on the banks is the result. It is hard to get private developers and bankers to agree on investing/loaning millions of $ based on "studies".