Can OKC Learn From Tulsa's Vision 2025?

[G.Walker]

How can Oklahoma City learn from their little sister Tulsa, with the success and failures of their Vision 2025 economic development plan?

http://www.vision2025.info

[OKCMallen]

What, exactly, are their successes and failures?

[J. Pitman]

More like "what can tulsa learn from OKC's ongoing success of MAPS?"

[adaniel]

I don't know if the two are even comparable. MAPS is a collection of a handful of big ticket projects voted on by the city. Vision 2025 is a free for all of 50+ projects voted on by Tulsa County.

[Jesseda]

i think the question " Oklahoma City learn from their little sister Tulsa" , should be more like "how can Tulsa learn how okc gets there vision/maps done in half the time it takes tulsa?"

[G.Walker]

Ok, why does it have to be a bashing Tulsa thread. I am not asking for comparison of the two cities, or which city is better. I thought people on here can stop being so closed minded, and foster some insight, and analyze another economic development plan, and see if we can learn from it. I am not from Tulsa, I have been living and working in OKC for 12 years, and own a business in Midtown.

But communities should give credit when credit is due, regardless of what city it is!

[Jesseda]

it was set up for bashing when you go to a okc board and ask how can okc can learn from tulsa lol, what did you expect. but thanks for giving us a chance to learn from little sister tulsa, even though i wouldnt even call it a sister, maybe distant cousin.

[Superhyper]

I think it's a legitimate question, Vision 2025 HAS done well in kicking off some major projects (something which Tulsa is traditionally bad at). Although I certainly don't have the urban planning expertise to fairly evaluate it, I'm sure there are several members of this board who will be able to give us a clear breakdown of Vision 2025's impacts and what it has done right vs what it has failed at.

[BDP]

I think it's a valid discussion. We can always learn from what other communities do, if for nothing else to keep from repeating their mistakes. It's already known that MAPS has been a success and has attracted a lot of outside interest on how it was executed. I am not as familiar with Tulsa's Vision 2025, but it may be worth watching to see how we may facilitate various smaller projects.

But first, I think I need some education and, like OKCMallen, would like to know what it's successes and failures currently are?

[Steve]

OKC can look at Vision 2025's downtown housing component and consider whether a similar model might be beneficial here.

[BG918]

They are very different, as MAPS is only for the City of OKC while V2025 was for county-wide projects with the most high profile, like the BOK Center and convention center expansion, in downtown Tulsa. Hopefully Tulsa learns a lot from the passage (and future implementation) of MAPS 3 when they decide to renew V2025 in 2016. If the streetcars are under construction or even running by then that would probably be at the top of the list for Tulsa's next round of projects. They already have the arena, ballpark, convention center, etc. all set.

[G.Walker]

I think one thing we can learn from Vision 2025, is how Tulsa expanded their development county wide, and not just for the city of Tulsa.

That could be an initiative if we have a MAPS4, to expand economic development to the county level? Which would be beneficial to some surrounding communities like Moore, Edmond, Mid-Del...etc...

[Midtowner]

OKC > Tulsa.

End of thread.

[Kerry]

Moore, Edmond, Norman, Mid-Del, etc. are all capable of their own version of MAPS. However, a regional commuter rail proposal would have to be voted on by everyone.

[BG918]

Moore, Edmond, Norman, Mid-Del, etc. are all capable of their own version of MAPS. However, a regional commuter rail proposal would have to be voted on by everyone.

In that case you would likely have to get Cleveland County involved. Something at the metro level would have to be done to get commuter rail going.

Remember Tulsa also tried a county-wide vote for river improvements in 2007 and it was voted down, mainly due to cities in the county not on the river like Owasso not supporting it. It would have passed if it was just the city of Tulsa, but it also included projects benefiting Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby so it had to be county-wide. You could run into some of the same problems in metro OKC if a community wasn't included or didn't support the vision of metro-wide commuter rail.

[dankrutka]

Well, one thing OKC could learn is how to build a great arena. The BOK Center is infinitely better than OKC arena. The exterior is amazing. Maybe the lesson is that some projects should "go big." Scaling back the pedestrian bridge is a good example of thinking short term IMHO...

On a side note, peoples attitudes on this thread are ridiculous. I'm from Tulsa and live in OKC. OKC has made great improvements and is better than Tulsa in many ways, but there are a lot of areas where OKC could learn from Tulsa. 20 years ago Tulsa was light years ahead of OKC in so many ways, but I love that OKC has find so well. When Tulsa AND OKC are doing well it is good for both...

[Spartan]

I've been saying FOREVER that Vision 2025's downtown housing fund is something OKC should learn from.

As for Vision 2025 itself, it's different from MAPS. For years, every downtown project in OKC was MAPS. MAPS is how we fund everything. Tulsa doesn't use Vision 2025 to fund everything. Case in point--their new downtown ballpark. They're probably going to get a streetcar proposal together fairly soon, as well--it won't be Vision 2025-funded. The difference is that Vision is a much less significant part of their overall picture. Compared to MAPS it's a lot less significant too, the tax is a lot less and the timeline is a lot longer. I like the idea of using sales tax from the entire city and NOT property tax just from downtown to fund downtown projects.

[G.Walker]

Yes Tulsa's Vision 2025 housing component is worth researching.

[Patrick]

Well, there are 2 ways to look at Tulsa's BOK Center. Yes, they did build a more architecturaly significant arena, but at the cost of size and seating. There's no way it would have the seating capacity for NBA or even NHL for that matter. The goal of building the OKC Arena was simply to build a large bare bones arena with enough seats and the basic amenities needed for an NBA or NHL team. It was built more for function than form. Now that we have an NBA team, we can continue to improve on the OKC Arena until it runs its short to moderate lenght of life, and then think about something more architecturally significant. Similar to Reunuion Arena vs American Airlines Center in Dallas.

[Spartan]

The BOK Center was also built to NBA/NHL specs and Tulsa does legitimately expect to have an NHL team one day, further down the road, just like how we got the NBA. I don't know where you're getting that about the number of seats in the BOK Center. Maybe elaborate more to make a stronger case.

I think it is slightly smaller than the arena formerly known as the Ford but the difference is really negligible. It might have more suites though, which is what NBA teams care more about..greater revenue streams.

[okclee]

I've been saying FOREVER that Vision 2025's downtown housing fund is something OKC should learn from.

Spartan, can you help explain the Tulsa 2025 housing fund? (Cliff Notes version, please.)

For those of us that would like to know more.

[BDP]

Well, one thing OKC could learn is how to build a great arena. The BOK Center is infinitely better than OKC arena.

I don't know about that. I love how OKC built it. Debt free and at a bargain. Once it got a major tenant then it began adding the amenities. I don't like the design of the BOK center (just my opinion), but the entrance is nice as is their loge seating. With the addition of the terrace suites and clubs, bunker suites, updated locker rooms, and court side clubs the Oklahoma City Arena is bubbling over with a mix of amenities and high end options for marquee tenants and high end guests that are on par with some of the best NBA arenas and better than many. And next year it will get even better with the addition of the new grand entry and atrium, new restaurants and lounges, family fun zone, etc. All this, and for less than the BOKs initial construction cost.

Personally, I think OKC's arena is a model in how to approach building a large venue in a market without a major tenant. In the end, the OKC arena will have more amenities than the BOK center, a major tenant, and will have spent less money when it is all said and done. It may not look like someone's idea of the future, but it will offer as much or more than many arenas and for a lot less money.

[Spartan]

Spartan, can you help explain the Tulsa 2025 housing fund? (Cliff Notes version, please.)

For those of us that would like to know more.

Sure. For brevity, you can just read the first paragraph, second goes into more detail on the future of the program:

They set aside about $10 million that they could grant in very low-interest loans to help finance downtown housing projects. They broke the $10 million into about 4-5 different chunks and used it to incentivize the first wave of downtown development. A few of them included the Mayo Bldg (Wiggin), the old Mayo Hotel which is even nicer than the Skirvin (Snyder), and the 1st Street Lofts that are still ongoing in the Blue Dome (Sager).

The beauty of it is that it sets up a cycle where once the loans are repaid relatively soon, they get put back into the same fund and then handed out again to a different round of development projects. They may have already gotten repayments on some of the first round projects, I just know that they recently handed out everything they had left in a second round of downtown housing fund disbursements.

It's a great way to promote quality downtown development, by not only putting your money where your mouth is in terms of downtown development, but also promoting examples of the kind of development the city wants to see happen downtown.

[okclee]

Spartan, thanks for the explanation.

That all seem so simple yet perfect for downtown re-development. I'm sure that Okc is aware of such program and the success it is having. This is another reason for downtown Okc to create it's own voice with some type of political representative.

Doesn't seem like it would take much for Okc to enact such a funding program and set up a few parameters?

[Rover]

Just curious, does anyone know the total number of housing units downtown Tulsa vs. OKC? Also the number of employees downtown T vs OKC?