Concerned citizens claim development plans are at odds with wetland health

[ljbab728]

There is a large empty apartment complex at 7200 NW 10th street, which is about 2.5 miles from that site as the crow flies and another down the street at about 6400 NW 10th street. They tore down apartments in the '80s and we still have vacant lots with paving and weeds, presumably still zoned multifamily on Rockwell just north of Melrose Lane and on Melrose Lane, just west of Rockwell. Does OKC really need to designate more parts of this end of the city multifamily or should we plan to make use of what we have now? I'm in favor of the later.

Basically all of NW 10th needs to be torn down and rebuilt and not in apartments. That is a real ghetto. That doesn't mean that multifamily building should be denied in other areas until this area is rebuilt though.

[ljbab728]

Huge apartment complex > one house.

How do you know that these people, who you're talking crap about, wouldn't mind one or two more single-family neighbors?

Spartan, that wouldn't surprise me at all. I lived in Mustang for many years and when it was really starting to grow the general consensus was that every new family that moved there hoped they were the last ones and wanted to prevent any additional growth.

[Spartan]

Well there's a difference between more of the same and something new and on a much larger scale than what already exists. Sometimes it can be good to introduce larger-scale structures to an area and sometimes it can be extremely detrimental. This is not a downtown environment, this is not the Northwest Expressway, this is the Stinchcomb Wildlife Refuge.

This is why I don't like Kerry's argument that people already living there shouldn't be angry at more people living there. This isn't the same as the ridiculousness when people living in high-rise condos complain about proposed towers ruining their view. That is preposterous, this isn't. A single family home does not have nearly the impact that an apartment complex does. It is possible to have development that is environmentally sensitive but I highly doubt, given the track record of apartments in this part of OKC, that what the developer is proposing is going to be very sustainable. No, in reality it will be more of the same crap you see along 10th and 23rd west of I-44 that was nice in the 60s when it was first built and become bona fide slum in the 90s, the level it's hovered at since then.

I'm not even against development at Stinchcomb. I would be for bringing something cool there. I am however against bad development and bringing more slum to the pristine wildlife refuge.

Wildlife refuge, not development refuse.

[bluedogok]

I grew up riding motorcycles out at Stinchcomb and it was the party/hangout spot in high school, I knew the area well. When they gated it off and called it a wildlife refuge we used to joke that the humans were the only "wildlife" out there. I rode mountain bikes out there about 10 years after they closed it to vehicular traffic and the trails were gone by then but the horses had the road all chewed up. It definitely became a "nature area" due to lack of attention and/or use.

[Double Edge]

I've seen beaver, deer, owl and untold numbers of birds. Both Stinchcomb and Overholser are used by migratory species. There are currently migrating white pelicans hanging out in the shallows at the north end of Lake Overholser.

[Double Edge]

Tulsa Audubon:
Stinchcomb

The primary ways to enjoy the refuge are by foot, mountain bike and boat. Several trails suitable for hiking run through the refuge linking four small lakes to the river. Entrances to the trails are from NW 50th on the east side of the refuge and County Line and Morgan Roads on the west side.

Nesting Prothonotary Warblers and Wood Ducks are found in the several ponds along the river roads. Indigo Buntings, American Goldfinches, smaller woodpeckers, and Carolina Wrens are among the small birds present. Late summer concentrations of Double-crested Cormorants may number in the hundreds. Mississippi Kites, Swainson's and Red-tailed hawks use the area as well as Great Horned, Barred, and Screech-Owls. When water levels are low, wading birds including White-faced Ibis and rarely such southern visitors as the White Ibis, Roseate Spoonbill, and Olivaceous Cormorant are seen. During the periods of migration warblers, kinglets, and smaller flycatchers are abundant. Fall weather brings the wintering sparrows, Song, Swamp, Lincoln's, White-throated, White-crowned, Harris's and Fox

http://www.tulsaaudubon.org/guides/s...ife-refuge.htm

OKC Audobon

Lake Overholser

With its variety of habitats, birding can be good here any season of the year. Obviously, spring and fall migrations are best with the combination of migrant passerines, shorebirds and waterfowl producing the largest numbers of birds. Winter can be productive with large rafts of ducks, gulls and cormorants, especially during iceover events.

Spring:
Rafts of ducks are common with Mallards, Shovelers, Green-winged Teal, Redhead, American Wigeon, Lesser Scaup, Bufflehead, and Ruddy Duck being the most numerous. Loons, grebes, gulls and terns are common. Watch for Common Loon, Horned and Eared Grebe, Franklin’s and Bonaparte’s Gulls, Forster’s and Black Terns. Passerines to look for are Yellow-billed Cuckoo, all swallows, Chimney Swift, Eastern Phoebe, Great-crested Flycatcher, Western and Eastern Kingbird, Scissortailed Flycatcher, House Wren, Ruby-crowned Kinglet, Swainson’s Thrush, Cedar Waxwing, Vireos, as well as Yellow-rumped, Nashville, Black & White and Parula Warblers. Added to this list are Indigo Buntings, Dickcissel, Baltimore Orioles, and American Goldfinch.

Summer:
Breeding birds are limited due to lack of extensive woods around the lake. The best areas are the park areas on the north and east sides of the lake and the woods below the dam. Look for Mississippi Kite, Yellow-billed Cuckoo, Common Nighthawk, Chimney Swift, Kingbirds, Scissortailed Flycatchers, Cliff and Barn Swallows, Carolina Chickadee, Tufted Titmouse, Carolina and Bewick’s Wrens, Eastern Bluebird, Robin, Mockingbird, Warbling Vireo, Common Yellowthroat, Indigo and Painted Buntings, Lark Sparrow, Baltimore Oriole, and American Goldfinch.

Fall:
Fall migration is less productive than spring but can hold a few surprises. Expect grebes, pelicans, egrets and herons, Snow Geese, ducks, Mississippi Kite, Osprey, Swainson’s Hawk, Sharp-shinned and Cooper’s Hawks, White-faced Ibis, gulls, terns, swallows, flycatchers, White-breasted Nuthatch, Blue-gray Gnatcatcher, vireos, warblers, Summer Tanager, sparrows, orioles and blackbirds.
Unusual birds would be bitterns, night herons, Broad-winged Hawk, rails, shorebirds, owls, Ruby-throated Hummingbird, Easter Wood Pewee, Marsh Wren, American Pipit, Rose-breasted and Blue Grosbeak, Clay-colored Sparrow, Yellow-headed Blackbird, and Pine Siskin.

Winter:
Large rafts of ducks become common, especially Common and Red-breasted Mergansers, Shovelers, Redheads, Lesser Scaup, Bufflehead and Ruddy Duck. Lesser numbers of teal, Gadwall, Canvasback, Ring-necked, Goldeneye, and Hooded Merganser may be present, Ring-billed, Herring and Bonaparte’s Gulls are regular. Cormorants and coots are common. Sparrows to watch for are Tree, Field, Song, Lincoln’s, White-throated, and Harris’s as well as Juncos.

Birds to be expected year-round are Pied-billed Grebe, Great Blue Heron, Canada Goose, Mallard, Red-tailed Hawk, Kestrel, Coot, Killdeer, Least Sandpiper, Ring-billed Gull, Rock Pigeon, Mourning Dove, Kingfisher, the Red-bellied, Downy and Flickers, Blue Jay, American Crow, Chickadee, Titmouse, Carolina and Bewick’s Wrens, Eastern Bluebird, Robin, Mockingbird, Starling, Cardinal, Red-winged Blackbird, Eastern Meadowlark, Great-tailed Grackle, Brown-headed Cowbird, House Finch, American Goldfinch, and House Sparrow.

http://okc-audubon.org/?cat=19

[bluedogok]

I've seen beaver, deer, owl and untold numbers of birds. Both Stinchcomb and Overholser are used by migratory species. There are currently migrating white pelicans hanging out in the shallows at the north end of Lake Overholser.

Yep, "nature" will take an area back over once humans have quit using it.

[Double Edge]

I grew up riding motorcycles out at Stinchcomb and it was the party/hangout spot in high school, I knew the area well. When they gated it off and called it a wildlife refuge we used to joke that the humans were the only "wildlife" out there. I rode mountain bikes out there about 10 years after they closed it to vehicular traffic and the trails were gone by then but the horses had the road all chewed up. It definitely became a "nature area" due to lack of attention and/or use.

Maybe one of our historians will weigh in but if memory serves the last time I investigated, it was a wildlife refuge from back before we were born, twenties or so. (I'm guessing at your age) That's probably the reason why access was limited, for misuse, motorcycle riding, high school parties, rather than the use it was designated for. That and policing it, I've heard there was a drowning of a high schooler in the late sixties at the river just north of 39th, known as Stinchcomb now. That was the end of swimming there according to my friend.

[Double Edge]

Either way, it was already a wildlife refuge in 2002 when the city hired a consultant to study it and make a long term plan for it. I can tell you the end result was not to turn it back to the kind of 'use' you're speaking of, parties and motorcycle riding, but to conserve the natural aspects of it and provide limited changes in infrastructure to accommodate the public's enjoyment of that.

[Double Edge]

And a tidbit I just learned about it today, it's the 99th largest city park in the US. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933260.html

[bluedogok]

We rode out there in the mid-70's to mid-80's, I started riding motorcycles in 1973 (at age 9) and it had well developed trails throughout, it was an open riding area in the OKC park system as Park Rangers patrolled the area and never stopped us. We also rode in the area south of the lake before the houses went in around NW 10th & Council. Those are the areas where were I learned to ride along with the railroad right-of-way behind my parents house, we eventually started riding out at Draper after us youngsters in the neighborhood got more experience.

The big party area was on the south side of the river where the County Line Road bridge was burned out over the river, those on the west side of OKC during the time would have known it as Five Mile. The north section where NW 50th dead ended was more of a quieter "parking" area. I think it was closed off for that kind of recreation around 88 or so.

[Double Edge]

I'm sure the city has been inconsistent over the decades WRT management of the area. This 2002 study was ordered by the parks department, or the water resources board possibly, I don't remember exactly. The area is still used for city, state or county controlled duck hunting too.

I participated in the below mentioned meetings...

Master Plan Development for Stinchcomb.

GUERNSEY and Howard Site Design were selected to perform the master planning activities for future development of the 1,000-acre Stinchcomb Wildlife Refuge, located north of Lake Overholser in Oklahoma City. The refuge serves as a buffer and water resources protection area for Lake Overholser.

Since 1920, the City has used the wildlife refuge and its four lakes as a filtering mechanism to trap floodwater sediments that would ultimately enter Lake Overholser. Lake Overholser is the storage reservoir for water coming to the Oklahoma City water supply system from Canton Lake and the North Canadian River. Water ultimately is diverted from Lake Overholser to Lake Hefner for additional storage, treatment, and distribution.

The refuge serves as a “filter” for water flowing from the North Canadian River into Lake Overholser. The 1,100-acre refuge contains four distinct, off-channel lakes and various wetland attributes that provide source protection for the City’s water supply during high flow periods (spring and fall). This provides extensive water quality enhancement.

GUERNSEY’s role in the process was to address the environmental issues related to the master planning process. Those issues include the following:

The process included several meetings with environmental groups and interested public agencies.

* Environmental Constraints (composite)
* Topography / geology
* Soils
* Surface water hydrology / groundwater
* Wetlands / other water bodies
* Site vegetation
* Cultural Resources
* Air Quality
* Recreation
* Wildlife
* Permitting Requirements

http://www.chguernsey.com/project.php?ProjectID=148

[bluedogok]

Back then the river was always low, we could ride in the river running sandbar to sandbar. When I rode bicycles out there around 90 the river was up, there was no way you could ride in it then so there might have been a water management issue that changed during that time.

[Double Edge]

Basically all of NW 10th needs to be torn down and rebuilt and not in apartments. That is a real ghetto. That doesn't mean that multifamily building should be denied in other areas until this area is rebuilt though.

This is textbook example of sprawl. Put in a highway for commuting at the outskirts, convert rich farmland, natural areas be damned, build new and let the inner city decay. That's a great plan, except for reasons I just listed and it continues to add the burden and cost of the city to maintain services over an ever widening area, does nothing to make the best use of areas already impacted and adds to fuel use and mass trans for commuting, to name a few issues.

[Kerry]

This is why I don't like Kerry's argument that people already living there shouldn't be angry at more people living there.

I didn't read any quotes from residents saying they would welcome more homes instead of an apartment complex. All I read was how new construction would destory the wildlife refuge.

[Double Edge]

The issue is larger than the immediate residents.

[Spartan]

I didn't read any quotes from residents saying they would welcome more homes instead of an apartment complex. All I read was how new construction would destory the wildlife refuge.

This is fair enough, but I assure you that the magnitude of their objection would be nowhere near what it is if the proposed development weren't apartments. If you lived in a really nice area of the Bethany region (where they see the bad effects of sprawl), and there are a lot of very nice areas mixed in with the not-so-nice, and seeing all the crappy apartments I am sure you too would throw a huge fit if some new apartments were to be built next to you or next to a wildlife refuge or park you liked.

I think the perspective in this case is relevant:

If I lived in Moore I'd throw a fit if there were a trailer park coming in next to me. If I lived in MWC I'd throw a fit if there were a pawn shop and check cashing business going in next to my home. If I lived downtown I'd throw a fit if there were was another great old building being replaced by a parking lot. If I lived in Edmond I'd throw a fit if "poor" people were moving in next to me. And so on.

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=Spartan;381374]Well there's a difference between more of the same and something new and on a much larger scale than what already exists. Sometimes it can be good to introduce larger-scale structures to an area and sometimes it can be extremely detrimental. This is not a downtown environment, this is not the Northwest Expressway, this is the Stinchcomb Wildlife Refuge.

I'm not even against development at Stinchcomb. I would be for bringing something cool there. I am however against bad development and bringing more slum to the pristine wildlife refuge.


/QUOTE]

Spartan, this isn't the Wildlife Refuge. It's property next to the Wildlife Refuge that is already zoned commercial.

I agree that something cool would be nice but who decides what is cool? The people who post here certainly can't agree about anything being cool. You're just making a big leap assuming that because they are proposing apartments it will be a slum because it's on the west side of OKC and other apartment areas aren't wonderful. There are a number of very nice apartment complexes in far west OKC and the Yukon area. Check out on Mustang Road south of Yukon.

[Spartan]

This isn't Yukon. This is the OKC side of Overholser.

And it probably shouldn't be zoned commercial anyway, not that zoning in this city means anything.

[ljbab728]

This isn't Yukon. This is the OKC side of Overholser.

And it probably shouldn't be zoned commercial anyway, not that zoning in this city means anything.

The other apartments I'm talking about aren't in Yukon either. They are south of Yukon in OKC. You're nitpicking and the exact city has no bearing on the issue at hand. It's a little late to complain about how it's already zoned. If someone wants to insure that it stays undeveloped they should be able and willing to buy out the current owners who are hoping to develop the land and then preserve it however they want to.

[Spartan]

If someone wants to insure that it stays undeveloped they should be able and willing to buy out the current owners who are hoping to develop the land and then preserve it however they want to.

I too can personify failure to grasp the concepts of civil society and public governing.

Yeah, and if you want a road to get to work, pay for it yourself or find a group of coworkers that live nearby to pitch in together. If you want a school, same thing--find a group of neighbors that also want a school and everyone pitch in to buy the land and make the school whatever you want it. Right?

[Midtowner]

It sounds like there'll be a lawsuit regardless. I'm sure the company has done its due diligence, but so will the plaintiffs. The experts in the case will have different conclusions and a judge will decide. If the wetlands would be harmed by the runoff from this development, I'm against it, and I doubt it can happen as planned. If the wetlands will be just fine, this is not unlike any other development anywhere else. And I don't care about the fact that 10-15 years from now, no matter how nice those apartments are now, they'll probably be section 8. Poor folks gotta live somewhere too and OKC has more than its fair share of 'em.

[Kerry]

If I had to bet $20 on it here is my official take - these residents don't want an apartment complex next door and the 'wildlife refuge' is just the vehicle to try and stop it. If these people really loved the wildlife refuge and were that concerned about it they wouldn't live next door to it either. They have their little piece of heaven and they want to keep it that way and if that means they need to scare the multitude into think wetlands are going to be destroyed, thus getting the enviro-left on their side, they will do it.

However, if the enviro-left told these current residents they had to stop using fertilizer on their lawns and that they had to build (and maintain) a storm water runoff collection pond to prevent heavy metals from entering the wildlife refuge, had to turn off all outside lights at sunset, and couldn't exceed 85 decibels of noise during the day, I suspect they wouldn't be so concerned about the wildlife refuge anymore.

[Double Edge]

[QUOTE=ljbab728;381435]

already zoned commercial.

Maybe and maybe not. It's under PUD zoning, probably done for the Walmart that didn't happen. When you obtain PUD zoning you have to begin development within a year or the zoning reverts to what it was formerly. I'm pretty sure it's been more than a year, nothing has been done to qualify as having begun development under that PUD and that it was formerly AA zoning, as is the surrounding property.

In any case, under a PUD written for a Walmart, it's impossible to build anything that doesn't look, smell and feel like a Walmart. To do so, the owners have to go through this process we are going through now, rezoning with reconsideration of all the issues including input from the citizenry.

[Double Edge]

If I had to bet $20 on it here is my official take - these residents don't want an apartment complex next door and the 'wildlife refuge' is just the vehicle to try and stop it. If these people really loved the wildlife refuge and were that concerned about it they wouldn't live next door to it either. They have their little piece of heaven and they want to keep it that way and if that means they need to scare the multitude into think wetlands are going to be destroyed, thus getting the enviro-left on their side, they will do it.

However, if the enviro-left told these current residents they had to stop using fertilizer on their lawns and that they had to build (and maintain) a storm water runoff collection pond to prevent heavy metals from entering the wildlife refuge, had to turn off all outside lights at sunset, and couldn't exceed 85 decibels of noise during the day, I suspect they wouldn't be so concerned about the wildlife refuge anymore.

There is property available to people within the same distance as the residents who live in relative close proximity and are vocal about this complex. The primary woman quoted says she lives on the east side of Lake Overholser. That could be as close as a block from Stinchcomb or as far as a couple of miles. Why do we need to trade green space for more development when we have underused property already developed? That's a poor use of resources and poor planning.