Streetcar

[BG918]

No isn’t a joke.
Yes the OU duck pond is closer to the stadium but the main line is about the same distance as it is to campus corner.

A short Y shaped spur line would provide more safe staging space for a large number of passengers.
It would allow for more safe options if expansion is ever needed.... such as a second platform.
On a daily basis the more convenient any system is (shorter walk) the higher the ridership would likely be.
A spur line would also provide a place for commuter trains to temporarily get out of the way of other trains.

If you’re familiar with the OU campus I’m thinking a station should be located just north of the track & field complex in an area that’s currently a parking lot. But even if the station is at the main line this general area is a far better location for severing the needs of a majority of Norman’s Amtrak passengers.

Another reason a commuter line makes so much sense utilizing the existing BNSF right-of-way. I don't think there needs to be a spur. Build the station where the tracks cross Brooks at the Duck Pond. And then build the campus toward the station. Lots of under-utilized land in between Jenkins and the tracks for campus expansion, especially housing for students.

[betts]

Do we really think BNSF will give us right of way? I can see if for a gameday "fan train" or something occasional. But, that is a really busy line and I'm suspicious that if asked, they would be uninterested in sharing that line with us.

[okclee]

I don't think BNSF will, I agree it seems like that line is going non stop as is.

[OKC@heart]

Sounds like it is time for an additional line, and I am not discounting all that is involved with a statement like that. It just remains a fact that if there is not the sharing capacity that would work without hampering BNSF or the Commuter Rail Service then another line is needed that could be used primarly by commuter rail and in a pinch by BNSF if some agreement could be reached that was mutually beneficial. Of course there are complex issues with respect to right of way issues but these are the growing pains that we as a city and region must take head on and address to not retard future growth and developent. While we are at it, it only makes sense to go ahead and plan out and accomodate a right of way that can accomodate HSR corridor. Make the difficult decisions all at once and not have to do this over and over again with endless studies upon studies. I am hopeful that the current studies will take all rail issues inder consideration and make the reccommendations accordingly with the long view in mind, not just plug the leak that is squirting today.

[Hutch]

Official efforts on commuter rail and high-speed rail assume the BNSF line will need to be double-tracked. ACOG's federal TIGER grant application efforts last year included cost analysis based on double-tracking the BNSF line between Edmond and Norman. ODOT's federal High-Speed Rail application included costs to double-track the BNSF line from Oklahoma City to the Texas border. At about the same time as those applications were being prepared, BNSF made a last minute request to the City of Norman to modify the design of the new Robinson Street underpass to allow room for 3 rail lines instead of 2. BNSF is clearly preparing for future commuter and high-speed rail service along their lines and within their right-of-way. It will require negotiations and compensation, but in the end they will most likely agree as double-tracking will provide some benefits to them, such as not having to share their single main line with Amtrak.

ACOG is now planning to undertake a comprehensive Alternatives Analysis in 2011 of the 3 primary commuter rail corridors identified in the Fixed Guideway Study (Edmond, Norman, Midwest City to Oklahoma City). That is a critical evaluation necessary for being able to successfully compete for and receive Federal Transit Administration New Starts grant funding for new rail transit systems. The main reason we failed to receive any federal TIGER grant funds for commuter rail last year was due to the fact the necessary AA's had not been done.

If everything goes as planned, in the next year or so we will have completed an AA for the Modern Streetcar system and finalized the Intermodal Hub Study and completed an AA for the Fixed Guideway Commuter Rail system. That will allow us to competively seek and receive FTA grants and matching funds for developing and expanding an intermodal hub and those rail transit systems, including the double-tracking of the BNSF line between Norman and Edmond.

[ljbab728]

No isn’t a joke.
Yes the OU duck pond is closer to the stadium but the main line is about the same distance as it is to campus corner.

A short Y shaped spur line would provide more safe staging space for a large number of passengers.
It would allow for more safe options if expansion is ever needed.... such as a second platform.
On a daily basis the more convenient any system is (shorter walk) the higher the ridership would likely be.
A spur line would also provide a place for commuter trains to temporarily get out of the way of other trains.

If you’re familiar with the OU campus I’m thinking a station should be located just north of the track & field complex in an area that’s currently a parking lot. But even if the station is at the main line this general area is a far better location for severing the needs of a majority of Norman’s Amtrak passengers.

ou, I grew up in Norman and when to school at OU so I'm very familiar with the area. A spur from the Duck Pond area to towards the campus would be a total waste of money to save only a few steps. That's especially true when you consider how far OU students or football attendees typically walk. And Norman's Amtrak station won't be moving. It's a historical building in the perfect place in downtown Norman.

[Kerry]

A spur line would have to be built. A passenger train can't stop on the main track and wait 30 minutes while passengers load and unload, prep the train for travel in the opposite direction, and other functions. This isn't the Heartland Flyer that stop in Norman for all of 2 minutes. It would be part of scheduled commuter service. Also, a station would have to be built as well as a sizeable parking garage because people would be using the system to go to work in OKC. And lets not forget space for transit oriented development. In reality, downtown Norman is a better location becasue it would do more for the City of Norman. Maybe Norman should look at connecting OU and a downtown station with a street car system. Heck, maybe Norman and OU should build a street car system regardless of a commuter rail station.

[ou48A]

ou, I grew up in Norman and when to school at OU so I'm very familiar with the area. A spur from the Duck Pond area to towards the campus would be a total waste of money to save only a few steps. That's especially true when you consider how far OU students or football attendees typically walk. And Norman's Amtrak station won't be moving. It's a historical building in the perfect place in downtown Norman.

A short Y shaped spur line servers a purpose that is far more than just about saving steps.


It would provide the needed space for a new station that would serve OU students, facility & staff, fans and some Norman residents daily with Amtrak, commuter rail and CART bus service. A second Norman park and ride facility would likely be needed somewhere around Tecumseh Street.

The current Norman Amtrak train station is historical but that doesn’t mean that it even starts to meet the needs of a modern day transportation hub. If it’s even possible it would need major modifications that would also be very costly.

High ridership is the objective. As it is now CART doesn’t meet the train forcing travelers to depend on a car ride or an expensive taxi.
It would be relatively easy to make the new station a transportation hub for CART, further expanding the stations reach around campus and to the Norman community.

An on campus transportation station like this would be a great asset for OU and like something that very few other universities have.

[ljbab728]

A spur line would have to be built. A passenger train can't stop on the main track and wait 30 minutes while passengers load and unload, prep the train for travel in the opposite direction, and other functions. This isn't the Heartland Flyer that stop in Norman for all of 2 minutes. It would be part of scheduled commuter service. Also, a station would have to be built as well as a sizeable parking garage because people would be using the system to go to work in OKC. And lets not forget space for transit oriented development. In reality, downtown Norman is a better location becasue it would do more for the City of Norman. Maybe Norman should look at connecting OU and a downtown station with a street car system. Heck, maybe Norman and OU should build a street car system regardless of a commuter rail station.

What you're saying is much more logical than ou48A's proposal. Norman is much more than just OU now and the system would need to meet the needs of all citizens. Even just bus connections with the Amtrak station and the campus would be better than trying to build a whole new complex near the campus. For some reason the idea of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area just strikes me wrong. It would destroy a peaceful attractive green space area near the campus.

[Kerry]

Someone needs to explain to me how to take Google Maps that I make and post them on here. Dismayed does it all the time - please help.

I laid out a quick streetcar system in Norman. It makes a loop through downtown, goes along Main to Sooner Fashion Mall, along Ed Noble Pkwy, and Lindsey, turns left at the Stadium, cuts through Campus Corner, and back to downtown. Total distance was just over 8 miles. It would be a cool system to have and I think it would really help Norman. Imagine parking at Sooner Fashion and taking the street car to the game, or 2,000 students living in new apartments building built in downtown Norman. It would certainly help keep Sooner Fashion Mall alive and revive downtown Norman.

[ou48A]

What you're saying is much more logical than ou48A's proposal. Norman is much more than just OU now and the system would need to meet the needs of all citizens. Even just bus connections with the Amtrak station and the campus would be better than trying to build a whole new complex near the campus. For some reason the idea of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area just strikes me wrong. It would destroy a peaceful attractive green space area near the campus.

Any system built should be constructed in such a way that it maximizes ridership in cost effective ways or it is a waste of money.

Making the system as quick and seamless as possible is paramount to its success.

Except for the downtown location I’m in basic agreement with Kerry about what’s needed. The construction of a working downtown Norman transit system that would “meet the needs of all citizens” would still require major construction dollars that could be better used elsewhere.

But if it’s needed a commuter train could still service down town Norman just like it is.


Norman’s growth over the years has made down town Norman extremely congested during drive time. From where I live in NW Norman I can drive to OKC during rush hour almost as fast as I can drive to down town Norman. Many Norman commuters to OKC live near I -35 or on the north side of Norman. These are a major target for daily commuter rail.

It is true that Norman is much more than just OU. But this is exactly why a Tecumseh street station would likely be needed. With the recent completion of the Tecumseh street project commuter rail users would have easy park and ride access from the from the East, North and West sides of Norman. CART could service this stop too.
For the vast majority of daily commuters to OKC a down town Norman location would be a horrible location for train service.

High numbers of people making the drive to Norman daily end up at OU. This is one reason why you need a station at OU.

The area where I would build the OU station is currently a large parking lot so only a small amount of grassy green space would be taken up.

With the many freight trains going by the duck pond it’s hardly a peaceful place these days. Today it’s actually a very noisy place. The trains can be heard all over campus and in much of Norman. You can even hear them on TV or radio over the crowds at football games.
This project should include sound dampening devices. They have done this in Dallas. If sound damping devices were installed though Norman it would help the quality of life for many Norman residents and improve property values. And just maybe the project could include a badly needed face lift for the duck pond. I have visited MANY far more attractive and peaceful farm ponds.

[Kerry]

One of the big side-effects of rail is Transit Oriented Development. Rail stations spur private development. For this very reason it should not be located on OU property. Downtown Norman is the best location because that is where you want high density development to occur. Right now downtown Norman the highest density but it is under utilized. Connecting downtown Norman and Downtown OKC with commuter rail and local street car systems at both ends is a win-win for everyone.

OKCs lack of downtown retail could be offset by access to Norman retail. If you live in downtown OKC and want to go to the mall just walk to the train station, ride to Norman, and get on the local streetcar to Sooner Fashion Mall for the day. Eat along Ed Noble Pkwy, then go home.

[ou48A]

One of the big side-effects of rail is Transit Oriented Development. Rail stations spur private development. For this very reason it should not be located on OU property. Downtown Norman is the best location because that is where you want high density development to occur. Right now downtown Norman the highest density but it is under utilized. Connecting downtown Norman and Downtown OKC with commuter rail and local street car systems at both ends is a win-win for everyone.

OKCs lack of downtown retail could be offset by access to Norman retail. If you live in downtown OKC and want to go to the mall just walk to the train station, ride to Norman, and get on the local streetcar to Sooner Fashion Mall for the day. Eat along Ed Noble Pkwy, then go home.

You already have billions of dollars’ worth of development at OU,,,,,, with more to come.

You already have thousands of potential riders within walking distance,,,,,, with more to come.


With OU there is a need and demand already in place and it’s only going to grow........
This would also help make OU a better university for our entire state.......

But even still there are several places around OU’s campus that could see private development.
The Campus Corner area would benefit. There are also several nearby places where old dilapidated homes, apartments and other old buildings that could be cleared or refurbished for private development.
This would further aid in building far more density than a downtown Norman hub ever could.

Downtown Norman is underutilized in large part because it’s hard place to get to for many Norman residents.
But it’s also old and largely antiquated. But as I previously mentioned you could still stop in downtown Norman with commuter rail, maybe then you would see some of the development that you talk about.

Because of the extremely congested streets a local streetcar in modern day Norman is a big time no go.
Any cross town transit system in Norman that isn’t a bus would need to have lots of grade separation.
But a north – south monorail system on OU’s campus has been the dream of some.

[BG918]

Here are some maps I made that apply to this thread:

Commuter Rail


Streetcar


Streetcar with Commuter Rail to the airport and Sheridan Trolley

[Tier2City]

What is the current situation with the Norman Quiet Zone for the BNSF tracks?

[Kerry]

OU48A - street cars run in the travel lanes so there is no grade seperation. The entire world uses this style and it works fine. The congested streets and 'hard to get to' characteristics are what makes street cars perfect for downtown Norman. I am also not leaving OU or Campus Corner out as the street car I envsions would run through Campus Corner and loop around the campus. Anything on the OU campus would require OU oversight so that rules out anything being built by the private sector and will practially ensure that nobody but students would live anywhere near a primary station. Plus, any parking for commuters to OKC would be taken up by OU students. The whole station and retail/office parking would just become a student parking lot.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you want to see a real modern streetcar, and cannot get to Seattle, Tacoma, or Portland, here's your local chance....

Fort Worth


http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/11...n-display.html

[Urban Pioneer]

This has a very interesting time lapse video of the people putting together the demonstration.


http://blogs.star-telegram.com/honki...ort-worth.html

[ou48A]

OU48A - street cars run in the travel lanes so there is no grade seperation. The entire world uses this style and it works fine. The congested streets and 'hard to get to' characteristics are what makes street cars perfect for downtown Norman. I am also not leaving OU or Campus Corner out as the street car I envsions would run through Campus Corner and loop around the campus. Anything on the OU campus would require OU oversight so that rules out anything being built by the private sector and will practially ensure that nobody but students would live anywhere near a primary station. Plus, any parking for commuters to OKC would be taken up by OU students. The whole station and retail/office parking would just become a student parking lot.

A plan such as what you have suggested doesn’t provide maximum seamless travel for the maximum amount of riders and would needlessly add a good deal of time to the trips destination for many travelers.

If it’s needed OU could sign over the land to the city or state or whoever. OU and the city of Norman have done this before on other projects.

I can’t see people relocating to live in downtown Norman because of a streetcar system. But if a street car system is necessary it could easily operate from the prosed transportation hub at OU.

There is plenty of privately held land within easy (10 minute) walking distance from this location, including land directly across the street to the north. This and other nearby land would become more valuable. There are condos being built right now along the main line near OU. At one time there had been a proposal to build a large complex of very high end condos just south of this location. This station would make that kind of development (that you want) more likely.

The last I knew there were over 10,000 students living in the dorms and in the Greek houses with thousands more living in nearby homes and apartments. Some already have CART bus service. In addition there are thousands of facility/ staff and visitors to OU daily. This station would also serve the needs of thousands of central Norman residents.
Many part time students do not live in Norman and at times Lindsey Street becomes a parking lot with student commuters.


If we want to maximum the success of this system it must be designed for quick and seamless travel

[ou48A]

BG918
Thanks for the maps. Its good information.
The commuter rail map looks good to me.

[Kerry]

@ou48A - what maximum benefit are you talking about? Just how many people do you think commute from downtown OKC to OU everyday? Surely you aren't thinking this will only serve OU football fans 6 or 7 times a year. There is a lot more to Norman than OU and if the residents of Norman and Canadian County are going to pick up a large portion of the tab then they outght to get the largest portion of the benefit. If OU wants a mainline stop and train station then let them pay for it via a student transportation fee.

[ou48A]

@ou48A - what maximum benefit are you talking about? Just how many people do you think commute from downtown OKC to OU everyday? Surely you aren't thinking this will only serve OU football fans 6 or 7 times a year. There is a lot more to Norman than OU and if the residents of Norman and Canadian County are going to pick up a large portion of the tab then they outght to get the largest portion of the benefit. If OU wants a mainline stop and train station then let them pay for it via a student transportation fee.

There are more than enough people at OU and in Norman to justify funding a system in the normal way.

If Norman is going to have a functioning commuter rail system there needs to be at least 2 stops. One at OU and one somewhere in North Norman.

If you have read all of my post you should know that I am talking about far more than just OU football games, there are many well attended events in Norman. Part of Norman has long been known as a bedroom community with thousand making the daily drive to OKC for work.

According to the link below there are approximately 30,000 students enrolled at OU. Over 10,700 personnel are employed at OU’s three campuses. As of 2010, Norman was estimated to have 115,876 full-time residents, making Norman the third-largest city in Oklahoma and the 234th-largest city in the United States. I would dare say that the mind set of many of these people would allow for a higher than normal daily ridership. And yes with enough capacity it would help OU fans with their transportation to football games.


Maximizing ridership = helping the most people possible in the best way possible to keep them
coming back for more than the just the charm and novelty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman,_Oklahoma

[Kerry]

ou48A - I agree that there would be good solid ridership between Norman and OKC. However, a heavy rail commuter system is not set up for frequent stops. I could see maybe two stops on an OKC - Norman line. Start in Norman, with a stop in Moore, and a stop near Crossraods Mall. The next stop would be downtown OKC. All Norman transit riders should use a local streetcar collector and circulator system. Any parking near OU will quickly become a student parking lot. I know, I was a student once.

[ou48A]

ou48A - I agree that there would be good solid ridership between Norman and OKC. However, a heavy rail commuter system is not set up for frequent stops. I could see maybe two stops on an OKC - Norman line. Start in Norman, with a stop in Moore, and a stop near Crossraods Mall. The next stop would be downtown OKC. All Norman transit riders should use a local streetcar collector and circulator system. Any parking near OU will quickly become a student parking lot. I know, I was a student once.

Not every train needs to stop at every station every single time. Some trains could skip some of the stations that have lower ridership numbers. Electrifying the system would also help some with frequent stops.

It would take many west side Norman residents 30 or more minutes to travel to a downtown Norman location on a street car. Then consider the time waiting on the street car and then commuter train. At this point most would just keep driving. It would take 10 minutes or less for most west side Norman residents to drive to a north Norman station, this is where most of the Norman commuters live.

People parking at the OU station would be required to buy a parking permit.
Currently virtually all OU parking within a mile of this location is by permit or it is metered.

[ou48A]

There is another undeniable aspect to this project that I have not seen mention and that is politics.
If we want this project built the right politicians and others of influence in our state must get behind it.

Since a good many of our states political figures and others of great influence in our state have OU connections they would recognize the benefits to and would be more likely to get behind the overall plan if it includes an OU stop.
Many OU alums and fans would also support the project.

Please remember this project would benefit far more people than just the OU or Norman folks.
Like it or not OU and its people have political clout in our state.

Using them to get this done for all only makes good sense.