Race and Ethnicity map in OKC

[MikeOKC]

You are utterly ridiculous and there is no point in responding anymore. My last point that I want to make is that we are all in this together. The "ghetto" mentality that you reference is no difference than the "redneck" mentality in failing rural schools. All races have their problems, but I've never had a black parent or student ask me (a white teacher) to be treated differently EVER. Quit stereotyping. Your clearly live in a bubble and know very little about how other people live. I won't argue with you anymore.

And you accuse Penny of, "living in a bubble?" Do you read the newspaper? Do you watch the news? Have you looked at the crime statistics? You can scream about socioeconomics all you want, but I've looked at the "Color of Crime" and it isn't a stereotype. You see anybody telling the truth in a candid way as a "racist." I think a lot of us are just fed up and don't care about the PC anger and cries of racism from your ilk. It just doesn't work any longer. The facts are not with you - they are with those who candidly state that the problem of crime among young black males is simply out-of-control. Period. Do white people commit crimes? Of course! Do blacks commit wayyy more rapes, robberies, burglaries, muggings, on and on - than white people? YES! (Even though there are way fewer of them.) Why? I don't have the answers, but I clearly see the problem. Poor whites in North Dakota and Nebraska don't rape, rob and terrorize neighborhoods. Do they Kilgore? I would assume because it's not a part of their culture to not report crimes among those "of your own kind" so to not be labeled a "snitch" (Or whatever ghetto language they have for it today.) It's also not an anomaly either. Even with the increase in the educated black middle class (you know the ones "acting white", as they say) the thug gangbanger culture is mainstream among young blacks. Do you really dispute that? And because of that, it's a handed down culture of crime and violence. It's not just Oklahoma, Kilgore; in fact, it's not even just America.

Whatever the cause, whatever the reasons, whatever excuses --- the color of crime is overwhelmingly black - and increasingly brown. The percentage of "white trash" committing crimes is nowhere even remotely close to blacks.

You called Penny's logic "disgusting." I call it, "Sad but true." There's just not a lot to dispute when it comes to arguing the facts of crime in America and I'm sick of nobody being allowed to talk about it.

Call me a racist if you must, but never call me fearless to speak the truth.

[redrunner]

And you accuse Penny of, "living in a bubble?" Do you read the newspaper? Do you watch the news? Have you looked at the crime statistics? You can scream about socioeconomics all you want, but I've looked at the "Color of Crime" and it isn't a stereotype. You see anybody telling the truth in a candid way as a "racist." I think a lot of us are just fed up and don't care about the PC anger and cries of racism from your ilk. It just doesn't work any longer. The facts are not with you - they are with those who candidly state that the problem of crime among young black males is simply out-of-control. Period. Do white people commit crimes? Of course! Do blacks commit wayyy more rapes, robberies, burglaries, muggings, on and on - than white people? YES! (Even though there are way fewer of them.) Why? I don't have the answers, but I clearly see the problem. Poor whites in North Dakota and Nebraska don't rape, rob and terrorize neighborhoods. Do they Kilgore? I would assume because it's not a part of their culture to not report crimes among those "of your own kind" so to not be labeled a "snitch" (Or whatever ghetto language they have for it today.) It's also not an anomaly either. Even with the increase in the educated black middle class (you know the ones "acting white", as they say) the thug gangbanger culture is mainstream among young blacks. Do you really dispute that? And because of that, it's a handed down culture of crime and violence. It's not just Oklahoma, Kilgore; in fact, it's not even just America.

Whatever the cause, whatever the reasons, whatever excuses --- the color of crime is overwhelmingly black - and increasingly brown. The percentage of "white trash" committing crimes is nowhere even remotely close to blacks.

You called Penny's logic "disgusting." I call it, "Sad but true." There's just not a lot to dispute when it comes to arguing the facts of crime in America and I'm sick of nobody being allowed to talk about it.

Call me a racist if you must, but never call me fearless to speak the truth.

I didn't see any facts to support your case and I think you'd be disappointed to learn about the number of crimes committed by whites. Here's some stats from Wikipedia although not the gospel it can give you a clearer picture about race and crime in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an..._United_States

[PennyQuilts]

I stand by that there is a subculture - SUB culture - in the African American community that acts well outside the scope of numbers expectation on crime and irresponsible behavior. We all know this is true and if we insist it isn't, it is because we are kidding ourselves or trying to sell something. I am not saying it is just black people committing crime and behaving irresponsibly regarding their families, heaven forbid. We all know better than that. My point, that has been utterly twisted by people who knee jerk - is that many white people fear black people because they only hear about the ghetto blacks. The point raised that drove many around the bend because they think any criticism of African Americans = bigotry (how utterly ridiculous), is that middle class blacks could go a long way to improving race relations if they would openly call out that behavior and distance themselves. Right now, they are letting ghetto culture be the symbol of Black America. Middle class black people have far more in common with their white middle class fellow citizens than they do those ghetto thugs.

There is a certain mentality that apparently believes black people shouldn't have to do anything to prove themselves and that white people owe it to them to give every black person respect and the benefit of the doubt. And that attitude is not helping. It is also stupid and shortsighted. Pride will only get you so far and most people I know want the world to be a better place for their children. Contrary to what some would have you believe (many white people who don't have to deal with the prejudice, I might add and can afford to be stubborn since it doesn't cost them or their children anything) this is not about some debt owed. It is about understanding each other, building good lives and working together. Sticking out your lip and saying I don't have to tell you anything is for children. The African American community can only benefit if the rest of the world understands that they are hard working, respect education, avoid violence. It may not be "fair" but it is just dealing with the reality. And if they want to be angry at a group, take it out on the ghetto thugs that are making good people look bad. And if white people should just "get" it, perhaps so. But many don't and being stubborn and prideful because it is beneath someone to have to point out the differences is a fairly low burden to have to cross to get a better life for your kids.

[jmarkross]

Rigid, intractable liberal dogma called into question...refreshing...

[bombermwc]

Penny - I did read all of your posts before I posted my last comment. I still disagree with you. At least in this last post you finally gave me a reason to think your just hard headed and not racist. I agree that it's stupid that anytime a criticism comes up, people automatically throw the racist word out there. But what you were saying before, it's borderline. And how dare you call me a coward. If you've paid the least bit of attention on this site, you wouldn't say that. I find your posts to be extremely narrow in vision on this partiular topic and would hope that rather than continue to spout the kind of flaming crap you have been, we can just move on.

As was pointed out, Education is the differentiator. But beyond that, it's parental involvement. If you don't have parents that support you and your education, chances are you aren't going to find it important and will stray. No matter how much money is thrown at an educational system, you HAVE to have QUALITY parental involvement.

[jmarkross]

Oddly...Penny makes good sense to me. And, I think we have some things in common...life experience and longevity. They used to have a name for this...but--what that is--slips my mind at the moment...

[David]

Old?

[jmarkross]

Old?

No...

[Ezrablum]

Wait......you're not black? Not that it matters (except how you worded your post) but you posted a picture several months back that was in your photobucket account for "Hot Rod" and there was a link to a MySpace for "Hot Rod". It was your link to a photo and it turned out the whole album was public, so I looked around to see what else you had (I like photography). There were lots of pictures of "you" Rodney _____ talking big about Oklahoma City -- and "you" were very much a black guy. If that's just some weird coincidence, I'm sorry I was...uh...wrong.

This comes off as somewhat creepy, and like maybe you need another hobby, or maybe pick up a book.

[PennyQuilts]

Penny - I did read all of your posts before I posted my last comment. I still disagree with you. At least in this last post you finally gave me a reason to think your just hard headed and not racist. I agree that it's stupid that anytime a criticism comes up, people automatically throw the racist word out there. But what you were saying before, it's borderline. And how dare you call me a coward. If you've paid the least bit of attention on this site, you wouldn't say that. I find your posts to be extremely narrow in vision on this partiular topic and would hope that rather than continue to spout the kind of flaming crap you have been, we can just move on.

As was pointed out, Education is the differentiator. But beyond that, it's parental involvement. If you don't have parents that support you and your education, chances are you aren't going to find it important and will stray. No matter how much money is thrown at an educational system, you HAVE to have QUALITY parental involvement.

It wasn't borderline, whatsover. Go back and read the posts, again. Closely. I made it clear that I felt that a dysfunctional minority was being held up as what black people are like to the unfairness of most black people. I was suprised to see you go off the way you did because you usually at least think before you type. I would like to know what I wrote, in context, that could possibly lead you to write what you did:

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

If what I said was even just "borderline," how could you accuse me of something so hateful? I really would like to know what it was I wrote that would cause you to claim I was saying I thought your black neighbors were going to rob you? Did you miss the part that I lived in an integrated neighborhood and I had no concerns that my black neighbors would be violent? Did you miss the part about how I went to black folks' homes and wasn't worried about it? All that was said before I "clarified" for you. It is ridiculous that someone could write what I wrote about hard working black people, good black people, black people who are unjustly lumped in with ghetto thugs and have someone like you turn around and call me a racist. That is exactly what you did. There is absolutely no way you could have called me a racist if you actually read what I wrote.

What does someone have to do or say to "prove" to you that they aren't racist? It is people like you who have made the word meaningless. I could understand if I said black people were stupid or that they were criminals because of their race or things of that nature. What has it come to that someone is called a racist when they write what I wrote?

Black people are doing the best they can to try to deal with bigotry. Slap happy white boys are out there drumming up resentment by "defending them" so they can feel morally superior. How dare you call me a racist? How dare you minimize real bigotry that way? As I already said, I have had many conversations with middle class black families. How dare you accuse me a racist when I am merely sharing what those good people tell me is going on? How does a white boy like you become so arrogant that they dare to point fingers like that? Again, what did I write that would cause you to call me a racist who believes your black neighbors are going to rob you?

[Stew]

It wasn't borderline, whatsover. Go back and read the posts, again. Closely. I made it clear that I felt that a dysfunctional minority was being held up as what black people are like to the unfairness of most black people. I was suprised to see you go off the way you did because you usually at least think before you type. I would like to know what I wrote, in context, that could possibly lead you to write what you did:


If what I said was even just "borderline," how could you accuse me of something so hateful? I really would like to know what it was I wrote that would cause you to claim I was saying I thought your black neighbors were going to rob you? Did you miss the part that I lived in an integrated neighborhood and I had no concerns that my black neighbors would be violent? Did you miss the part about how I went to black folks' homes and wasn't worried about it? All that was said before I "clarified" for you. It is ridiculous that someone could write what I wrote about hard working black people, good black people, black people who are unjustly lumped in with ghetto thugs and have someone like you turn around and call me a racist. That is exactly what you did. There is absolutely no way you could have called me a racist if you actually read what I wrote.

What does someone have to do or say to "prove" to you that they aren't racist? It is people like you who have made the word meaningless. I could understand if I said black people were stupid or that they were criminals because of their race or things of that nature. What has it come to that someone is called a racist when they write what I wrote?

Black people are doing the best they can to try to deal with bigotry. Slap happy white boys are out there drumming up resentment by "defending them" so they can feel morally superior. How dare you call me a racist? How dare you minimize real bigotry that way? As I already said, I have had many conversations with middle class black families. How dare you accuse me a racist when I am merely sharing what those good people tell me is going on? How does a white boy like you become so arrogant that they dare to point fingers like that? Again, what did I write that would cause you to call me a racist who believes your black neighbors are going to rob you?

I took a lot of what you wrote on this thread as being racists. It's obvious you have a race chip on your shoulder when it comes to 'black folk'. I noticed in the past you're quick to play the 'race card'.

I don't think it evil though. You're merely a product of your generation and the times you were born into. Of course you can't see it and you will deny it but it is the truth.

[PennyQuilts]

I am politically incorrect - that I will admit to. But nothing I said was racist and I certainly didn't deserve to be accused of what MWCbomber said about suggesting that his black neighbors would do him harm.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder against black people, whatsoever. Where I am coming from is frustration with people who insist on treating perfectly capable and proud people like victims. I won't do it. I have too much respect for them. To me, THAT is bigotry. I am well aware that they are often the target of bias and that infuriates me. It is grossly unfair. I worked in the trenches with many black social workers and probation officers, many who came up from the ghetto, and they have my utmost respect. When white people get their panties in a wad and assume to speak for black people, and judge me when I refuse to treat these gutsy people as children, I have to wonder where they get the nerve.

And what else infuriates me is black on black crime that is ignored as a "black" problem - or ignored, period, since it doesn't affect white people. Moreover, although it is it is coming from a different direction and meant with good intentions, the end result is exactly the same if it is ignored because it makes some black people look bad. That is missing the forest for the trees.

In the interest of political correctness, people's lives are being ruined. These are people being terrorized by thugs. These are black people being terrorized by thugs. If anyone is offended that I don't have more sympathy for "poor" ghetto folk (and by that, I mean the criminals), too bad, so sad. I reserve my sympathy for their victims who are overwhelmingly black. To pretend those people aren't being victimized since their predators are the wrong color is sickening. I don't care if the thugs are black, white or peach colored. What I do care about is people enabling black people to be victimized when the perpetrator is black because to speak up and say that is wrong isn't PC - and gets you labeled intolerant by some, and racist by others (like MWC). I had too many of my guardian ad litem kids and families be victims to this sort of thing to not be horrified at the amount of black on black crime in certain areas. To accuse me of being a racist because I speak up is just so typical. So long as somone is PC, it doesn't matter if the end result is that black people are victimized. In the interest of political correctness, all you guys are ignoring the elephant in the room. Real people get hurt because no one wants to say anything for fear they will be accused of the hateful things MWC accused me of.

[bombermwc]

Apparently I'm not the only one that sees the race card being played in your posts penny. As I've said, I have read your posts....they are the reason why I commented. If you don't see it, then you're part of the problem.

There's a difference between being polically incorrect and being racist.

I'm not a racist in any way/shape/form, so you can take that comment you made about me a shove it right where the sun don't shine. Hell, I'm the one that said take the race box off the form....how does that make me racist? And since I'm not the only one seeing your comments that way...we must all be wrong and you must be right...yeah.

Next time you go spouting off flaming comments, why don't you keep them in your little brain. We don't have room for small-minded bigots here.

[Kerry]

There is a certain mentality that apparently believes black people shouldn't have to do anything to prove themselves and that white people owe it to them to give every black person respect and the benefit of the doubt. And that attitude is not helping. It is also stupid and shortsighted. Pride will only get you so far and most people I know want the world to be a better place for their children. Contrary to what some would have you believe (many white people who don't have to deal with the prejudice, I might add and can afford to be stubborn since it doesn't cost them or their children anything) this is not about some debt owed. It is about understanding each other, building good lives and working together. Sticking out your lip and saying I don't have to tell you anything is for children. The African American community can only benefit if the rest of the world understands that they are hard working, respect education, avoid violence. It may not be "fair" but it is just dealing with the reality. And if they want to be angry at a group, take it out on the ghetto thugs that are making good people look bad. And if white people should just "get" it, perhaps so. But many don't and being stubborn and prideful because it is beneath someone to have to point out the differences is a fairly low burden to have to cross to get a better life for your kids.

PQ - you're beating a dead horse. The ideas of Booker T. Washington have long vanished in the black community.

No greater injury can be done to any youth than to let him feel that because he belongs to this or that race he will be advanced in life regardless of his own merits or efforts.
- Booker T Washington

[Decious]

The ideas of Booker T. Washington have long vanished in the black community.

They have done no such thing.

[PennyQuilts]

Apparently I'm not the only one that sees the race card being played in your posts penny. As I've said, I have read your posts....they are the reason why I commented. If you don't see it, then you're part of the problem.

There's a difference between being polically incorrect and being racist.

I'm not a racist in any way/shape/form, so you can take that comment you made about me a shove it right where the sun don't shine. Hell, I'm the one that said take the race box off the form....how does that make me racist? And since I'm not the only one seeing your comments that way...we must all be wrong and you must be right...yeah.

Next time you go spouting off flaming comments, why don't you keep them in your little brain. We don't have room for small-minded bigots here.

Okay, then tell me what I wrote that would cause you to say I thought your black neighbors would harm you? That is a horrible thing for you to have accused me of. How could you have ignored what I said about my own neighborhood? If you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been so angry but it was grossly unfair and reckless. I think you own me an explanation for why you would write that about me. In fairness, you shot that over my bow and what do you expect to be the result when you write something like that? You can't claim the high road when you go around making that sort of comment after what I wrote.

[bombermwc]

Sorry, I'm moving on. I'm not going to keep arguing about this. I've got better things to do.....moving on.

[PennyQuilts]

Sorry, I'm moving on. I'm not going to keep arguing about this. I've got better things to do.....moving on.

Like I said - typical COWARD. You know you had no cause to make that awful and unfair statement and instead of just admitting it, you cut and run. I suspect you were aiming at someone else and just lumped me in with them. Show some integrity.

[Kerry]

They have done no such thing.

They might still be held onto by a select few individuals, but they are not mainstream thinking.

[zrfdude]

Okay, then tell me what I wrote that would cause you to say I thought your black neighbors would harm you? That is a horrible thing for you to have accused me of. How could you have ignored what I said about my own neighborhood? If you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been so angry but it was grossly unfair and reckless. I think you own me an explanation for why you would write that about me. In fairness, you shot that over my bow and what do you expect to be the result when you write something like that? You can't claim the high road when you go around making that sort of comment after what I wrote.

All you need to do is read what you've wrote. It isn't that hard.

[Decious]

They might still be held onto by a select few individuals, but they are not mainstream thinking.

This seems to be a fact in your mind and that's cool with me. My experience in my own life with my family, friends, and associates tells a different story. We'll just keep doing what we're doing.

[PennyQuilts]

All you need to do is read what you've wrote. It isn't that hard.

It is easy to conclude I am a racist who thinks black neighbors will harm you if you are so inclined and unethical enough to ignore my own statement that I lived in an integrated neighborhood with no fear of my black neighbors - and my other statements. I have asked, repeatedly, for someone to tell me what they based the accusation and the claim that I thought MWC's black neighbors would harm him. Just as I predicted, he has cut and run rather than back up his statement.

The reason we have so many people making baseless and hateful accusations of racism is because they can do it with impunity and don't understand how hateful that is. Perhaps they didn't grow up with it. When you can just throw that out based on your opinion, without being willing or ethical enough to back it up with an explanation other than a conclusory statement, it is clear the accuser how no understanding or respect for true racism. It is easy enough - how does MWC justify claiming that I believed his black neighbors would hurt him when I didn't think that about mine and specifically made the point that all black people aren't like the small minority that are "ghetto?"? The fact that he won't answer says it all. And as for you, just what exactly do YOU based your hateful accusation upon? Or is conclusion without proof or explanation all you need? Racism used to be considered just about as awful as being a criminal. For some of us, it still is. For people who trivialize it, it is just a weapon to throw out willy nilly.

[zrfdude]

It is easy to conclude I am a racist who thinks black neighbors will harm you if you are so inclined and unethical enough to ignore my own statement that I lived in an integrated neighborhood with no fear of my black neighbors - and my other statements. I have asked, repeatedly, for someone to tell me what they based the accusation and the claim that I thought MWC's black neighbors would harm him. Just as I predicted, he has cut and run rather than back up his statement.

The reason we have so many people making baseless and hateful accusations of racism is because they can do it with impunity and don't understand how hateful that is. Perhaps they didn't grow up with it. When you can just throw that out based on your opinion, without being willing or ethical enough to back it up with an explanation other than a conclusory statement, it is clear the accuser how no understanding or respect for true racism. It is easy enough - how does MWC justify claiming that I believed his black neighbors would hurt him when I didn't think that about mine and specifically made the point that all black people aren't like the small minority that are "ghetto?"? The fact that he won't answer says it all. And as for you, just what exactly do YOU based your hateful accusation upon? Or is conclusion without proof or explanation all you need? Racism used to be considered just about as awful as being a criminal. For some of us, it still is. For people who trivialize it, it is just a weapon to throw out willy nilly.

First of all, I made no "hateful" accusation. Where in my suggestion on how to figure out why MWC did make that statement to you did I make this accusation?

So did you reread your posts as suggested? Let me summarize: black violence...black...black...black....ghetto...black ...black. Here's a reply to one:

BG and Penny - I think you made my arguement for me, even though you think you are actually making a race arguement. What you said IS SOCIOECONOMICS...NOT RACE. If you base crime statistics off of neighborhoods, then you're basing it off of socioeconomics. The racial makeup of that neighborhood has 0%, zero, nadda, zilch, to do with the crime rate.

Hell if I based my opinion of the crime rate in Edmond off of how many times I saw Lynda Chu on TV, I'd think it was an inner-city thugfest.

Just because a person is of one race, does not predispose them to a life of, or life lacking, crime. There's no nature vs. nuture arguement. It's just as possisble for a white person to end up in a life of crime as a black person. What I will agree with is that statistically, you might see higher numbers of a particular group, but that can be traced back to their economic condition and the social means to that end.

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

See there! It's right there! The answer you've been looking for! Hallelujah! You see, you keep insisting that this is a problem with a race of people (not all) but race IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED. I guess you missed it the first time because you kept going on and on.

Here's what you've essentially said (very generalized):
Black people are violent : black people cannot change their race : black people are violent

Here's what MWC was trying to explain had your read:
Lower socioeconomic classes are violent : black people comprise all classes : poor black people are violent

I don't really care how many black friends you have, or what neighborhoods you've lived in, as a human being, I find your posts troubling and sad (for more information, just refer to all of your posts on this thread). I'm not going to say you're racist because I think that requires intention, so I'll just go with......oblivious.

[PennyQuilts]

First of all, I made no "hateful" accusation. Where in my suggestion on how to figure out why MWC did make that statement to you did I make this accusation?

So did you reread your posts as suggested? Let me summarize: black violence...black...black...black....ghetto...black ...black. Here's a reply to one:


See there! It's right there! The answer you've been looking for! Hallelujah! You see, you keep insisting that this is a problem with a race of people (not all) but race IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED. I guess you missed it the first time because you kept going on and on.

Here's what you've essentially said (very generalized):
Black people are violent : black people cannot change their race : black people are violent

Here's what MWC was trying to explain had your read:
Lower socioeconomic classes are violent : black people comprise all classes : poor black people are violent

I don't really care how many black friends you have, or what neighborhoods you've lived in, as a human being, I find your posts troubling and sad (for more information, just refer to all of your posts on this thread). I'm not going to say you're racist because I think that requires intention, so I'll just go with......oblivious.

I am more unhappy with MWC's false accusation than your just piling on. His statement was horribly unfair and unwarranted. As for black violence - are you actually saying that if someone says ghetto blacks tend to lead violent lifestyles and makes a distinction between ghetto black lifestyle and middle class black people that makes them a racist? So be it, then. That might explain the horror I have seen displayed. You aren't supposed to point out the obvious, backed up with overwhelming statistics. It goes back to what I said, before - many are quick to label political incorrectness as racism. And it is why we can't have an honest and respectful discussion of race relations.

[jmarkross]

Interesting to watch the attempts to dissuade the Hitler Youth from their brain-washed, vehement--and--stupefyingly incorrect exposition of what they have been "taught"...points to a bleak future...