Streetcar

[Hutch]

Many good comments concerning the hub. Here's a few more thoughts to keep in mind:

From a rail transit perspective, the single most critical component of the hub is the terminal facility (railyard...tracks and platforms), and not the transit center (building). The specific location and size of the terminal facility determines service capacity, transfer efficiency, ease of connectivity, and system effectiveness. For the public to embrace any transit system, it must provide efficient, dependable and timely service. An improperly located or sized terminal facility can negatively impact system service, which in turn can diminish public support.

The transit center is an important supporting element of the hub, but it is not as critical to the overall efficiency and effectiveness of the rail transit system as the terminal facility. Many local rail passengers will rarely enter the transit center. Instead, they will simply transfer from commuter train to commuter train or from commuter train to streetcar or bus or vice versa. However, proper location and size of the transit center is still vital for providing convenient linkage to the terminal facility and necessary passenger services, such as ticketing, waiting areas, baggage hold, rental cars, food and beverage areas, and restroom facilities, which are especially important for supporting intercity rail service.

These are not easy determinations to make, especially when trying to factor in future service demand. That's why we're spending $300,000 dollars to get the right answers. The last thing we want to do is repeat the mistakes made by other cities when initially developing their rail transit hubs, such as underestimating the current or future service needs of the terminal facility or transit center.

The Santa Fe Depot may be expandable to service all of the needs of a modern transit center or it may not. The Santa Fe terminal facility may be expandable to service all of the current and future needs of the rail transit system or it may not. It's potentially a tight squeeze, especially in light of the magnitude of freight traffic that will be moving through the terminal. Fortunately, we've got multiple options to work with and a very experienced consulting firm to provide us with the right answers.

We're very fortunate to be able to make decisions on the locations of the critical components (terminal facility...transit center...streetcar lines) of the system in its beginning stages and all essentially at the same time. It's extremely important we get it all right. And to do that will certainly take more than $10 million. At least it's a good downpayment.

[Kerry]

The key is that we don't hamstring ourselves with a solution that tries to do too much with far too little. I am all for prudence with funds and am a firm believer that great design is not always tied to vast sums of money, rather my argument is that the scope of the transportation hub is so aggressive and all of it is needed, so lets design according to what we want to have in place as the end result and then develop a phased plan for implementation so that it can be realized and not patched together with less than desired results.

If $10 million is phase 1 of a multi-phase plan that would be good. I just hope they design a full service station and build it in phases. I wouldn't want it to look like OU Memorial Stadium in 30 years with 5 or 6 obvious additions that don't match.

[HOT ROD]

Kerry, I was the one (or one of the main people) who had advocated removing PART of the Cox but retaining the 'newer' North Facing facade/meeting space area and building the intermodal into the back of it. We would basically remove the arena, in my idea and then spend money building an elevated Heavy Rail spur to connect the rear of the saved Myriad facade to the N-S train BNSF alignment. The elevated spur into the new intermodal building would serve Commuter Rail (say 3 boarding areas) and inter-city rail (2 AMTRAK/Regional Rail boarding areas, 1 HSR). We'd have future light rail come in at the street level immediately below the Heavy Rail spur. Streetcar doesn't need to be in a ROW, so it could come in at the 'street' level at Sheridan (which it will most likely do anyway) and transit and inter-city bus would come in at the basement level in the Rail ROW. The 2 square blocks where the Myriad Arena currently resides would be reclaimed and made available to development, expanding the CBD. Santa Fe would become a different use, such as a world class museum and/or signature restaurant.

I have this idea because we don't really need the Myriad Arena once we have 1) the new convention center and 2) a replacement arena in say the Ford dealership area. .... I also have this idea because I don't think Santa Fe can be expanded to truly be an intermodal facility. It is a train DEPOT, not even a true train station - Union Station is a true train station. ... So how could one expect to connect HSR, Intercity Rail, Commuter Rail, Transit Bus, and Inter-City Bus into a Depot? .... Can't happen. Definitely not with just $10M either.

So in my idea, and taking clues from others in this discussion - we could develop a grand plan to reuse the Cox (my idea or some modifications) now, but go ahead and pursue the Streetcar as part of MAPS III - since a streetcar does not need a terminal building (it can just stop right at the street in front, as it will likely do anyway). We could easily have Commuter Rail use Santa Fe for now, as I'm sure passenger loads and even CR service will be small at first. But once OKC achieves other milestones (convention center, new arena), then we could implement more phases of the Intermodal facility - eventually reusing the front Myriad facade area. Having such a phased plan and a running streetcar and commuter rail uses actually in-operation might actually free up transit/rail dollars from the Feds and State; making the reuse project more feasible. Also, by having the intermodal going later - we could tie it to a TRUE Metropolitan MAPS; maybe MAPS 4 or 5 would be having support from the entire metro area and ACOG essentially taking over transit (and not the city of OKC anymore).

The beauty of my idea is we build the best streetcar system that we can NOW. We don't need a building for streetcar and (for now) we could use Santa Fe for any startup Commuter Rail. We can use the $10M to develop full plans to reuse the Myriad, get all designs and plans in place (shovel ready) - so that once Streetcar builds rail ridership and Commuter Rail and rail transit in general becomes the lifeblood of metro OKC (hence demand for it), then we can really build the intermodal terminal reusing part of the myriad.

By designing it now but building it later, we could 1) have much more funds (and remove the excuse the Feds always have, that OKC isn't a transit city [provided we prove ourselves 'today' with the new streetcar and CR startups]), 2) possibly make it part of the Metropolitan MAPS (more money/investment available), and 3) have a potential lower overall cost by reusing part of the Myriad the public had already invested with MAPS I.

By the way, I don't want to scare people about a new arena - my idea wouldn't be to build a new Ford Center, but rather a smaller replacement to the Cox; say 12,000 seats to be used exclusively for the minor league and collegiate clubs in the city. Something in the $30-$50M range (using Ford's initial $89M cost as a baseline). Also, by reclaiming the Myriad Arena land - we could recoup some of the cost to these project's overall cost. ...

anyways - that was my thoughts, and I think it is what OKC should do. Don't go small time just because we only have $10M now. Design for the future, put together a plan to phase things in, and build the streetcar as best as we can now - get it up and running, build ridership and support, implement startup Commuter Rail runs using Santa Fe for now, then once other milestones are made we can implement the shovel ready reclamation of the myriad and turn it into our intermodal that would be the envy of all cities. ...

[stdennis]

I think the tunnel under the tracks leads to where the canal ends. I think a great idea is to use the Santa Fe station as the initial hub by expanding it and building another bi level entrance to it on the bricktown side so it can be accessed from the canal. A better glass covered and walled loading area would be good. This would be the first step maybe mirroring the exterior of the south side of the Santa Fe station on the north. If we need to expand the amount of passenger tracks we can then use the eastern track and build another covered loading area. Then when we need to expand further we can build a covered or enclosed walkway across Reno to the u-haul parking lot with a tunnel and/or upper crosswalk to get to the building. This could house the taxis, buses and car rental. There should be enough space for a large parking garage eventually. And maybe even room across reno on the eastern side of the tracks for even more expansion.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the tunnel under the tracks leads to where the canal ends. I think a great idea is to use the Santa Fe station as the initial hub by expanding it and building another bi level entrance to it on the bricktown side so it can be accessed from the canal. A better glass covered and walled loading area would be good. This would be the first step maybe mirroring the exterior of the south side of the Santa Fe station on the north. If we need to expand the amount of passenger tracks we can then use the eastern track and build another covered loading area. Then when we need to expand further we can build a covered or enclosed walkway across Reno to the u-haul parking lot with a tunnel and/or upper crosswalk to get to the building. This could house the taxis, buses and car rental. There should be enough space for a large parking garage eventually. And maybe even room across reno on the eastern side of the tracks for even more expansion.

Dennis, this exactly the type of "multi-phase" and reasoned approach to "building out." There is a linear area skirting EK Gaylord on both sides of the tracks. Through the use of people movers or moving sidewalks, you could essentially "stretch" a transit campus out over time and as needed. Not unlike an airport terminal. The attractiveness of direct access to the Water Taxi and pedestrian connection is impressive.

It is my personal opinion out of the many conversations that I have heard that the Cox facility is going nowhere. It adds additional square feet for smaller conventions, increases our scoring when event planners review our overall available square footage, will continue to serve as our existing convention center while the other one is built, and undeniably played a big role in us being able to handle the Big 12. It is a structurally strong building in good shape. That's not to say that it couldn't be demolished 10 - 20 years from now to make room for something else, but the need for that much track space assumes to much. The Cox garage however could be a taxi hub, car rental, or other small vehicle area.

Project 180 will narrow EK Gaylord by two lanes. The additional space could potentially provide us the ability to place the streetcar platform at the very front door of the facility or in a central median.

Regarding Federal funding, most transit systems are financed with Federal funds. Our $130 million investment will definitely go a long way to providing a "match" that is often the obstacle to applying. However, federal funds would probably be directed to streetcar expansion or a commuter line proper. One final note on this, earmarks are still the prevalent way that such projects are "escorted" to the front of the line. Assuming the Republicans are successful in the midterms, Jim Imhoff would re-assume a ranking leadership position and would probably be a in a position to assist with this process.

$10 million dollars can a go a great distance in providing is something today. It should be part of a long term plan. It should be part of a "systematic" approach to reestablishing rail transit. However, how far in the future do you plan for?

[okclee]

I think the tunnel under the tracks leads to where the canal ends. I think a great idea is to use the Santa Fe station as the initial hub by expanding it and building another bi level entrance to it on the bricktown side so it can be accessed from the canal. A better glass covered and walled loading area would be good. This would be the first step maybe mirroring the exterior of the south side of the Santa Fe station on the north. If we need to expand the amount of passenger tracks we can then use the eastern track and build another covered loading area. Then when we need to expand further we can build a covered or enclosed walkway across Reno to the u-haul parking lot with a tunnel and/or upper crosswalk to get to the building. This could house the taxis, buses and car rental. There should be enough space for a large parking garage eventually. And maybe even room across reno on the eastern side of the tracks for even more expansion.

stdennis....I love that idea, also this would use up those parking lots. I know that paved area just east of the tracks, where the canal begins has a useless feel to it. I rarely see people in this area and it has one of the best views into bricktown, overlooking the canal with the bricktown ballpark as the backdrop.

[Hutch]

One of the great hub design opportunities provided by having an elevated terminal facility is that any or all of the space under the terminal can be opened up for any number of purposes. A primary streetcar stop can be located directly under the terminal allowing for direct passenger transfer via stairs or escalators to the platforms above. An arched one-hundred foot opening can link the CBD on the west with Bricktown on the east, providing a pedestrian corridor and transit passenger access to the water taxis. Tunnels can be lengthend or added providing connections to other hub facilities, such as a parking garage or primary bus transfer facility located nearby. And a primary passenger platform for the elevated terminal can be extended and become an elevated pedestrian walkway connecting to certain buildings in the CBD or Bricktown. There is certainly tremendous potential to not just have an acceptable hub, but to develop one that is a unique and outstanding facility showcasing the City.

[okclee]

Hutch, you have some fantastic ideas, and you have obviously put much thought into the possibilities.

Welcome to Okctalk too.

[Platemaker]

I posted this pic back in December... this is a rendering of a station proposed in Baltimore. Our Santa Fe area could easily mimic something like this.

[Urban Pioneer]

Hutch, you have some fantastic ideas, and you have obviously put much thought into the possibilities.

Welcome to Okctalk too.

Marion Hutchison is probably "the citizen hub expert." He and OnTrac have been working on this for years. Marion also serves on our Hub Committee.

[Platemaker]

Just for fun... Santa Fe with elements of some european stations pasted on top.... not proposing tearing down the existing building... my idea with this is a glass 'umbrella' covering the historic building.

[Hutch]

Thanks for the welcome!

I certainly don't claim to be a hub expert. And I won't claim credit for many of my suggestions. Most of what I know came from research of others technical information and discussions with real experts. However, as Jeff is quite aware, I do believe in sharing what I know. That's what I like about the discussions that take place here. A lot of good minds sharing a lot of good ideas. By getting it all out on the table we're much more likely to end up with the winning solutions.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Here is a proposed station along Chicago's elevated rail system.

[metro]

Nice!

[Kerry]

Just for fun... Santa Fe with elements of some european stations pasted on top.... not proposing tearing down the existing building... my idea with this is a glass 'umbrella' covering the historic building.

I think the entire loading platform is going to have to be enclosed. No one is going to wait for a train in 20 degree weather with a 30 mph wind.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the entire loading platform is going to have to be enclosed. No one is going to wait for a train in 20 degree weather with a 30 mph wind.

That could be quite spectacular and beneficial. TAP Architecture is the architectural consultant on this project. They are a sub for Jacobs.

[Urban Pioneer]

Marion found this. It is interesting that this came out during the Conference of Mayors in Oklahoma City


High-Speed Rail Will Spur Growth in Hub Cities, Says Mayors Report

By GAYATHRI VAIDYANATHAN of Greenwire
Published: June 14, 2010

Billions of dollars of new business and tens of thousands of jobs will flow to four hub cities -- Los Angeles, Chicago, Orlando and Albany, N.Y. -- where plans for major high-speed rail networks are located, according to the U.S. Conference of Mayors. Their report, released in Oklahoma City today, is the first attempt to put numbers on the widely held belief that high-speed rail can stimulate local economies and act as a driver of growth. The Obama administration has invested $8 billion in federal stimulus money to create 13 high-speed rail corridors.

The benefits of traveling between 110 and 220 miles per hour will mean better connectivity, shorter travel times and new development around train stations, according to the report. The changes will create 150,000 new jobs and some $19 billion in new businesses by 2035.

"In these difficult economic times, these economic development and jobs creation numbers are huge for central Florida," said Buddy Dyer, mayor of Orlando.

The rail network will spur tourism, give businesses a wider pool of workers to choose from and help grow technology clusters in cities, said Steve Fitzroy, director of operations for the Economic Development Research Group, which conducted the study, during a phone interview.

"It is a game changer with how people envision the city; people see the city in new ways," Fitzroy said.

Albany, which is a political center in New York but not well-connected to the metropolitan area, will be pulled into New York City's economic core, said Fitzroy. A high-speed rail link connecting Albany to New York City, Syracuse and places as far off as Montreal have been proposed at various points by state legislators.

If the network does goes up, the report states that it would create $2.5 billion in new business in Albany and would add 21,000 jobs. It would increase gross regional product, a measure of the size of the local economy, by $1.4 billion. The train station would spur development, with new additions, hotels and other mixed-use projects coming up in the area, said Fitzroy.

But the Northeast network is furthest from being built, according to Oliver Hauck, CEO of Siemens AG, which sponsored the report. The Germany-based manufacturing giant is looking to expand its U.S. operations to include high-speed rail. It has already bought property adjacent to its current Sacramento plant to produce high-speed rail cars, according to Hauck.

"Our expectations are rather high," he said. "We are trying to do everything to support the departments of transportation in the states and we expect that Florida will be the first to go into operation."

The Florida high-speed rail system is closest to completion, with the first phase of construction connecting Orlando and Tampa at 168 miles per hour to be finished by 2015, Dyer said. The state received $1.25 billion in stimulus money, which should help it pay the relatively small bill of $3.5 billion for 86 miles of tracks.

Since the state had already secured the right of way to create a track network dedicated to passenger rail, the price tag of construction for phase 1 is relatively cheap. Phase 2 will require $8 billion in comparison.

So far, Florida has received $65 million, which is the largest amount of funding that has been actually dealt out in the country so far, said Dyer.

Hauck of Siemens Mobility said he expects orders for phase 1 to be placed in 15 months and completed in 36 months.

Completion of all phases of the hub, which would eventually connect to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Palm Beach and other areas, would create $2.9 billion per year in new business, a growth of $1.7 billion per year in gross regional product and 27,500 new jobs, according to the report.

A Los Angeles high-speed rail system that connects the city to San Francisco, San Diego, Sacramento and other cities would create $7.6 billion per year in new business, the report says. It would also increase gross regional product by $4.3 billion and create 55,000 jobs.

A Chicago high-speed rail network connecting to Minneapolis, St. Louis and other areas would create $6.1 billion per year in new business, according to the report. This includes a $3.6-billion-per-year increase in gross regional product and 42,000 new jobs.

The numbers are comparable to the economic revitalization seen in Europe and Asia when they got their high-speed rail systems, Hauck said.

"We are planning for the future," said Fitzroy of the Economic Development Research Group. "We have to be competitive on a global scale and be able to move from city to city without relying on fossil fuels."

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/06...ne%2014&st=cse

[Watson410]

That has nothing to do with OKC... does it?

[Urban Pioneer]

That has nothing to do with OKC... does it?

We are a designated/recognized high speed corridor. Also, the Mayors Conference was held here this past June and there was a "break-out" meeting from which this article was generated. ODoT is actively and continuing to pursue funding even though we did not receive fund son the first round.

[Hutch]

While the article is specifically about the economic benefits of High-Speed Rail, much of the same applies to the development of local and regional light-rail and commuter rail systems. That underlying message about the substantial economic benefits associated with the development of rail transit systems in general is an important one for the public and our political and business leaders to continue to hear and understand. It is a message that can't be repeated enough as we try to move forward with the development of a rail transit system for the Oklahoma City metropolitan area.

[Kerry]

HSR is worthless unless you have local rail to connect to.

[OKC@heart]

Kerry, I think most would agree with you however most are also working to get the commuter rail and streetcar / light rail to fill that gap. No one is saying that it stands alone. At least that is not my take on the conversation.

[plmccordj]

How long before we can begin to see ANYTHING tangible with respect to MAPS3? Not complaining, just curious.

[Larry OKC]

HSR is worthless unless you have local rail to connect to.

Why?

While I can see a benefit if both exist, why is it useless if local doesn't? That's like saying you have to have small planes or helicopters to get from the airport to your final destination. Obviously you don't. You get another means of transport (bus, taxi, rental etc).

[Larry OKC]

How long before we can begin to see ANYTHING tangible with respect to MAPS3? Not complaining, just curious.

If the original MAPS is any indicator, about 5 years (passed in 93, Ballpark opened in 98). We saw construction well before that, but the completed project was years away. Similar story with MAPS 4 Kids, in not mistaken (at least a couple of years).

Although some "lesser" projects that are "shovel ready" (Trails) may get done sooner. There are time delays in the bigger projects as most were in the concept phase pre-vote. Nothing finalized on design etc (they are just starting that process).

The Park is scheduled roughly in 2014 (within 2 years after the relocated I-40 opens). But again, don't think we have seen anything final on its design etc. The Park's parameters were formally set by the Council recently.

If you are asking specifically about anything tangible on the Streetcars (subject of the thread) the latest quote I read (been a while now) was 10 years?? I know UrbanPioneer will take issue with the 10 years remark, but think he even said if they were ordered today (and we are a long way from doing that) it takes 2 years for delivery??? Routes haven't been selected, tracks haven't gone in etc etc.