"Why Oklahoma City Could Represent the Future of America"

[jmarkross]

Good question!

Better: There are a lot more freaks here now (which is a good thing ), um, crap, can't think of more "better" things yet...

Worse: Drivers are way more stupid than they used to be, more intolerance, conservatism, and religion-oriented in general (some of the nation's strictest anti-abortion laws (thankfully not all in effect now), 10 commandments monument, anti-gay city councilman, etc.).

Maybe it's my general pessimism that doesn't let me see much more "better" as far as people go, but it just doesn't seem that much changed people-wise here in OKC for the better. Seems like other things have trended downward too - infrastructure, competence. And mind you, this is my own personal experience, I'm not saying everybody is incompetent or intolerant, etc. People here still seem to have as much courtesy/niceness in person as they used to have (opening doors, general pleasantries, etc.), but that can't go in the "better" column since it hasn't changed. :-)

Wow, that's kind of depressing to see that I can only see one thing that has gotten better people-wise... Any other expatriates that have returned see more "better" things than I do?

I left Oklahoma in 1972 for all the logical reasons--mostly for success in business in much larger markets. No other way. Saw the bright lights and the big city. Saw people die like flies...saw 2-yo babies get there brains blown out in a park on Sat. afternoon by 15yo mexican gang-bangers--caught in cross-fire--while they had a picnic. Seen liberal rule--lived under it. Seen where it led. Those who really want these things--should go there. It is not perfect here--and there is a lot to be annoyed by. On balance, I find it to be the lesser of the evils. If you are looking for something that does not exist, you are unlikely to find it. Those who live on dreams--will die fasting.

[TheTravellers]

You may not understand how similar your life has been to many of your fellow contributors here. You have, no doubt learned a lot along the way--having seen so many different places and how people live and think. I spent most of my adult life in Southern California--why?--THE WEATHER! I retired in Oklahoma because I would never try to be an old person in a place that hates them, and where home prices are silly--and we surely see that now and I have lots of friends who lost their butts in real estate. Moving is excruciating--and damn hard. But, you have to accept your own choices and learn from them. What else can one do? Venting is ok too! There is no nirvana where people are all sweet and nice and think alike...unless you live in a cult or an ashram or somewhere like Jonestown...your world is your family, I am sure you would agree.

Good reply, thanks. I'd really hate to live where everyone's sweet and thinks alike, etc. (shudders), but is it so hard to ask that you not be demonized and hated because you have a different viewpoint than someone else? Yeah, I know, it happens all over the world, in all cultures, it's not specific to OK and OKC, but to truly feel like all of your beliefs are hated by the people that live around you and have to interface with (and live with the results of the hate, such as restrictive laws) every day just gets really, really old and tiresome (and tiring).

And I'll continue to keep learning from all the moving for a very long time, as long as my credit card companies keeps billing me (at very low interest rates, though).

[fuzzytoad]

10 commandments monument

I'm sorry, but what, exactly, does a 10 commandments monument do to you that that makes living here(or anywhere else for that matter) bad?

I've never, ever, heard *anyone* say something along the lines of "I was going to move to StateCapitalCity, but I heard they have a 10 commandments monument!!!"

[TulsaRobert]

I'm sorry, but what, exactly, does a 10 commandments monument do to you that that makes living here(or anywhere else for that matter) bad?

I've never, ever, heard *anyone* say something along the lines of "I was going to move to StateCapitalCity, but I heard they have a 10 commandments monument!!!"

It is usually a combination of these smaller events. After hearing about enough incidents where taxpayer money is wasted putting up monuments that are continuously ruled to be unconstitutional, you begin to question the intelligence of the population and begin to re-consider whether you would rather have your money wasted in such a fashion.

[jmarkross]

Good reply, thanks. I'd really hate to live where everyone's sweet and thinks alike, etc. (shudders), but is it so hard to ask that you not be demonized and hated because you have a different viewpoint than someone else? Yeah, I know, it happens all over the world, in all cultures, it's not specific to OK and OKC, but to truly feel like all of your beliefs are hated by the people that live around you and have to interface with (and live with the results of the hate, such as restrictive laws) every day just gets really, really old and tiresome (and tiring).

And I'll continue to keep learning from all the moving for a very long time, as long as my credit card companies keeps billing me (at very low interest rates, though).

The longer you live--the more you will have faith in your ability to survive most things--I mean, you have already been through a lot. I understand why people do not like things like..."don't ask--don't tell"...but--does it not remove from everyone's realm the forced acceptance of something they might find offensive? Same thing in all kinds of areas...it often is a matter of keeping your own controversial points of view to yourself subdued unless asked. It is really common courtesy. Stops signs keep people from colliding...but are an imposition to some. Society is chaos without some semblance of order and compromise. A lot of folks want things to change--but--they really want things to change to the way THEY like them--and all the others can go die somewhere. Seeking that simplistic goal condemns societies to eternal disorder and conflict.

[TheTravellers]

It is usually a combination of these smaller events. After hearing about enough incidents where taxpayer money is wasted putting up monuments that are continuously ruled to be unconstitutional, you begin to question the intelligence of the population and begin to re-consider whether you would rather have your money wasted in such a fashion.

Ding-ding-ding, we have a winner! Also, reference the death by a thousand cuts, straw that broke the camel's back, etc. It's just indicative of the way the population thinks (no, not the entire population, but enough that matter in order to get things like that done, and the perceived apathy of the rest of the population to either not challenge it or to passively agree with it once it's done). And even the OK Supreme Court got tired of slapping the OK Legislature's hands... I'm not sure the taxpayers paid directly for the current monument, but indirectly they do/did.

[TheTravellers]

The longer you live--the more you will have faith in your ability to survive most things--I mean, you have already been through a lot. I understand why people do not like things like..."don't ask--don't tell"...but--does it not remove from everyone's realm the forced acceptance of something they might find offensive? Same thing in all kinds of areas...it often is a matter of keeping your own controversial points of view to yourself subdued unless asked. It is really common courtesy. Stops signs keep people from colliding...but are an imposition to some. Society is chaos without some semblance of order and compromise. A lot of folks want things to change--but--they really want things to change to the way THEY like them--and all the others can go die somewhere. Seeking that simplistic goal condemns societies to eternal disorder and conflict.

I was going to respond point-by-point, but don't really want to cut/paste that much, so here's a quickie.

First off, if a place continuously makes me angry, tired, basically just not good, then why would I want to put all my energy into living there and just surviving if I could live someplace else that's easier on me because they're more in line with how I live?

Not even gonna get into DADT because there is no way you and I will ever come close to any semblance of agreement on it.

My views aren't very controversial in about 45 of the 50 states, and how do you know I don't keep them to myself unless asked?

Warranted stop signs keep people from colliding, unwarranted stop signs actually can cause speeds to go up and have other undesired effects.

I would like things to change in OK to just rational, not my personal views (these do coincide at times) - things like city councilmen not equating gays with pedophiles and wife-beaters, repair the infrastructure properly/on budget/on time, quit using construction zones as speed traps, quit trying to do the whole creationism is gospel/evolution isn't real thing in schools, make it out of the bottom of lists of good things and out of the top of lists of bad things, etc. Anne Rice has a nice quote about why she quit Christianity, which I agree with (even though I'm not a practicing Christian) and unfortunately I believe lots of "Christians" practice the kind of "Christianity" she is quitting, both nationwide and here in OK : " In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of ...Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen." OK just has so much "Christianity" and so much conservatism (yes, both are separate, but sometimes they do exist hand-in-hand), it's overwhelming.

[MikeOKC]

This is a 2000-year-old debate that I promise you will not be solved on OKCTalk. I'm curious why TheTravellers is even posting here. What's the purpose except to fight? Go live your life. If you've wiped your hands of Oklahoma, why come here to this forum - of all places - and argue about it?

[jmarkross]

I was going to respond point-by-point, but don't really want to cut/paste that much, so here's a quickie.

First off, if a place continuously makes me angry, tired, basically just not good, then why would I want to put all my energy into living there and just surviving if I could live someplace else that's easier on me because they're more in line with how I live?

Not even gonna get into DADT because there is no way you and I will ever come close to any semblance of agreement on it.

My views aren't very controversial in about 45 of the 50 states, and how do you know I don't keep them to myself unless asked?

Warranted stop signs keep people from colliding, unwarranted stop signs actually can cause speeds to go up and have other undesired effects.

I would like things to change in OK to just rational - things like city councilmen not equating gays with pedophiles and wife-beaters, repair the infrastructure properly/on budget/on time, quit using construction zones as speed traps, quit trying to do the whole creationism is gospel/evolution isn't real thing in schools, etc. Anne Rice has a nice quote about why she quit Christianity, which I agree with (even though I'm not a practicing Christian) and unfortunately I believe lots of "Christians" practice the kind of "Christianity" she is quitting, both nationwide and here in OK : " In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of ...Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen." OK just has so much "Christianity" and so much conservatism (yes, both are separate, but sometimes they do exist hand-in-hand), it's overwhelming.

Gosh...whole lot of anger going on...I would guess you to be about 34...seems like that is the time that genre of frustration hits. But--take it easy...things will get better. But, I offer only opinions--take 'em or leave 'em--happily I can't even remember how long ago it was that I gave a s*** what anyone thought about me or my thoughts. I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone of anything. Sometimes...a person has to see a whole lot of different situations--from a whole lot of different angles, before he can see how others think. Wanting people to change...well--how lucky are most women at getting their chosen male to change to suit their desires? Age -old problem...compromise and understanding. BTW--rational to you may well be radical to the next guy. Accept that--or go through life angry and frustrated, historically you would be in a large crowd...not many ever achieve contentment, sadly. I have.

[TheTravellers]

This is a 2000-year-old debate that I promise you will not be solved on OKCTalk. I'm curious why TheTravellers is even posting here. What's the purpose except to fight? Go live your life. If you've wiped your hands of Oklahoma, why come here to this forum - of all places - and argue about it?

Um, what part of me living here in OKC do you not get?

[MikeOKC]

Um, what part of me living here in OKC do you not get?

I haven't read the whole thread, by the sounds of things in the last few posts it sounded like you didn't live here any longer. Again, why the anger? Wouldn't it have been just as easy to write, "Actually, I still live in OKC, I explain all that in earlier posts."

By the way, why are we discussing this in OKC Metro Talk? This should be in politics.

[TheTravellers]

Gosh...whole lot of anger going on...I would guess you to be about 34...seems like that is the time that genre of frustration hits. But--take it easy...things will get better. But, I offer only opinions--take 'em or leave 'em--happily I can't even remember how long ago it was that I gave a s*** what anyone thought about me or my thoughts. I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone of anything. Sometimes...a person has to see a whole lot of different situations--from a whole lot of different angles, before he can see how others think. Wanting people to change...well--how lucky are most women at getting their chosen male to change to suit their desires? Age -old problem...compromise and understanding. BTW--rational to you may well be radical to the next guy. Accept that--or go through life angry and frustrated, historically you would be in a large crowd...not many ever achieve contentment, sadly. I have.

Ha, wrong about the age, but right about the anger.

You say "I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone of anything." So you've basically given up. Sad. I don't care much about what people think or say about me, but I'd like them to listen to my ideas at the very least, which a lot of folks here in OK just don't/can't/won't do. Laissez-faire attitudes seem to be fairly common around here, though, so I'm probably tilting at windmills trying to help drag OK kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

[TheTravellers]

I haven't read the whole thread, by the sounds of things in the last few posts it sounded like you didn't live here any longer. Again, why the anger? Wouldn't it have been just as easy to write, "Actually, I still live in OKC, I explain all that in earlier posts."

By the way, why are we discussing this in OKC Metro Talk? This should be in politics.

No anger (didn't put a smiley, so you interpreted it as anger, that's the way the web is, it takes more clicks now to put one in with the new software and I didn't take the time), I assumed (bad, I guess) you had read all (or enough) of the other posts to know that I live here (again).

Thread got off-topic, as threads do, and I guess the mods haven't moved it or shut it down yet.

[jmarkross]

Ha, wrong about the age, but right about the anger.

You say "I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone of anything." So you've basically given up. Sad. I don't care much about what people think or say about me, but I'd like them to listen to my ideas at the very least, which a lot of folks here in OK just don't/can't/won't do. Laissez-faire attitudes seem to be fairly common around here, though, so I'm probably tilting at windmills trying to help drag OK kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

In my case...the only one I can speak with authority about...it became a situation of diminishing returns. Giving up?...well if your goal IS to convince people of something...it usually is a matter of seeking VALIDATION for one's own thinking. It does not matter to me about others are thinking because it has no effect on me. Anger is the principal way the nefarious try to control others...knowing their buttons and how to push them to throw the victim off balance...often gives them the upper hand. It is the mother of all epithets hurled around--to incite the victim to irrational action. If people are not listening to you--big hint here--they are the wrong people to be talking to. Not 34?--I bet I was not off by much...

[Larry OKC]

Raising taxes for a REASON that makes sense...that is ok with conservatives. Midnight basketball or other liberal boondoggles--are not. Liberals raise taxes to try to explore their mindless ideas of a "better world"--and expect those who disagree to pony up their cash for it as well. Conservative thought is a consensus--before the public is taxed. Liberals, suffering from the delusion they have been granted some sort of 'visions' others cannot "see", are often trying to hoodwink others into paying for their experiments. Failure to do so brings vehement and disparaging remarks and accusations and condescending...literally apoplectic fits! Much like a two-year-old...and the nation has grown quite tired of this. As we shall see--quite clearly--on November 2, 2010...

This seemed to be in response to the MAPS/Norick/Humphreys (& Cornett) post. There were those here who supported all of the various MAPS just for the "liberal" reason you mentioned. Force others to spend their money on some "vision". As far as the former/current MAPS Mayors mentioned, all are Republicans and probably consider themselves to be Conservatives (as long as it is spending other people's money). The consensus part really doesn't come into play here, because under Oklahoma law, all new taxes/sales tax increases must be approved by a vote of the people (as opposed to a back door method). There really isn't an option on the local level unless the money comes from the General Fund and that always seems to be very tight.

Curious, but does anyone here know how the "super majority" requirement effects cities on raising taxes/fees etc? Am asking concerning the proposed increase in water utility rates (apparently a back door method of funding the Sardis water deal). A deal where we are paying $15 million more than what is owed and don't know if this rate increase includes funding for the multi-million $$$ pipeline that is going to have to be built (the current one can't handle the quantity). If a super majority vote is required by Council or not? In the last meeting, they barely had a quorum present. Strangely, the Mayor wasn't present, but the vote recorder kept showing he had voted. Something else I have noticed, even with various council members missing, the chair will announce that a vote passed unanimously. Misleading at best.

[Spartan]

Then you should leave. Others are coming here for it. Move to California or New York...you will fit right in. It is only correct people should congregate with those who are like-minded...are you being held here against your will?

I nominate this to be the Chamber's main relocation selling point.

[Laramie]

You have no idea what "liberal" is. Don't be such a jerk, as there are many talented liberals that are playing a major role in making this city great. Not everything is about ideology.

Thank you Soonerguru for clearing that up! There has been a recent campaign to make 'Liberal' a bad word or thing to be associated; thanks for the Liberals of this country or someone might own me...

Keep in mind that Oklahoma City is a very multiculturally diverse city where there are plenty of opportunities for people of all cultures and walks of life.

Oklahoma City's moderate growth will allow her to look into the future and get a better assessment for the needs of our community.

[TheTravellers]

In my case...the only one I can speak with authority about...it became a situation of diminishing returns. Giving up?...well if your goal IS to convince people of something...it usually is a matter of seeking VALIDATION for one's own thinking. It does not matter to me about others are thinking because it has no effect on me. Anger is the principal way the nefarious try to control others...knowing their buttons and how to push them to throw the victim off balance...often gives them the upper hand. It is the mother of all epithets hurled around--to incite the victim to irrational action. If people are not listening to you--big hint here--they are the wrong people to be talking to. Not 34?--I bet I was not off by much...

Y'know, your posts just don't quite make sense to me as much as they should, not gonna go any further with it, you're about 720 degrees from my views and it's not worth any more time. And yes, actually, you're off by quite a bit on my age...

[jmarkross]

Y'know, your posts just don't quite make sense to me as much as they should, not gonna go any further with it, you're about 720 degrees from my views and it's not worth any more time. And yes, actually, you're off by quite a bit on my age...

Cool. Have a good life!