Jim Crow In Oklahoma City

[PennyQuilts]

I think growing up in that era as a female probably makes me more sensitive about the lyrics - my experience is that a lot of men don't even hear them and don't interpret them the way women might. It comes down to having the experience of being women in a "man's" world and things that were galling to us weren't even on their radar. I am not sure why you would think pots being cold has any meaning other than that she is not home cooking - why else would he say that? He can warm the darn hearth, himself if that is what he wanted. Face it, cooking went with being a woman/wife - these days it doesn't but it sure did in those days. I woman who didn't cook for her man was not doing her job. In fact, my father-in-law (age 85) still expects me to cook every evening and he has yet to see me pick up a pot or pan. He doesn't hold it against me but is always suprised. It was just the way he was raised.

When I first started practicing law in the early/mid nineties, there was a cut off of chauvanism with male lawyers that was utterly striking. Say, age 65 or older, they treated the women lawyers like secretaries and expected us to make and fetch the coffee. It was unreal. They'd call us Honey, pat waitresses (it was embarassing) and direct us into nonlitigation areas - perhaps with kids or other domestic issues. Men under age, say, 58, were completely different and treated us like equals. The old breed has all but died out, retired or finally have enough sense to keep their mouths shut. They didn't mean anything by it but it was a definite change.

For that matter, women of my mother's era often acted like little bunnies, fluffy and living for male attention and approval. I don't mean they were hussys but I just saw many women who came of age post WWII but before the sixties that seemed to define themselves by being soft and attractive. Contrast that with the women of the thirties and forties. THOSE were women who actually "did" things and blazed trails without asking for special favors and asking people to make allowances for their femininity. Of course, in those days, women had to choose between being wives and mothers and being career women (pre reliable birth control).

[papaOU]

I think you are interpreting "my house is dark and my pots are cold" to mean that she wasn't home cooking.

I don't necessarily see that meaning. I took it to simply mean that his home was empty and uninviting, more along the lines of absent hearth fire in an even older time.

Not that you aren't correct about the changing gender roles of the time (1968-1969) but I think it is a pretty good stretch to conclude that among her evil ways was not cooking. For all we know from the song she was cooking up a storm with her friends.

I was newly married then and I do know my wife and her friends of that time were struggling with juggling gender roles. There was a lot of pressure on women of that time that probably is still not sufficiently recognized. It was a tumultuous time on so many fronts.

I was surprised to read in the Wiki article about the song that it was about a girl who was spiteful. That seems pretty forced to me.

That is because Wiki is not a reliable source for information. Either one of us can post what we want on Wiki. I'm not saying that your assumption is not valid.

[Doug Loudenback]

* * * It was just the way he was raised.

When I first started practicing law in the early/mid nineties * * *

* * *They'd call us Honey, pat waitresses * * * The old breed has all but died out, retired or finally have enough sense to keep their mouths shut. They didn't mean anything by it but it was a definite change. * * * .

Penny, no disrespect, but I think that you're looking at this whole non-related discussion to Jim Crow laws through subjective and myopic glasses ... and not that there isn't merit to what you are saying ... but ...

I was admitted to the Oklahoma bar in 1968 at age 25 following graduation from OU law school, when, of course, I was a much younger and doubtless a more handsome man than I am today, more than 40 years later. Heck, then, I was just a baby. My weight was definitely a ton less at that time, and, gawd, in this picture from the 1968 school album, I still had relatively dark brown hair, and a good bit of it, on my head, and no white fur was on my face. The highest GPA in my class was by set by Prudence Little. Her husband, Dan, was 10th, as I recall. They are Madill lawyers, or at least they were last time I looked. David Boren was also in that class. Those in my graduating class, as far as I know and certainly not me, had no sense of gender differences between lawyer quality matters. An elder lady who had late-in-life come back to school and who also graduated that year was well-respected and regarded graduated that year as well. Our class 1968 class was about 1/3 women, if memory serves correctly.

There is also truth to what you said about some older (than me) lawyers not having the same respect and regard for women lawyers as opposed to men. I don't recall the year right now, but I do recall a judicial election in which Judge Jack Parr was opposed by Melinda Monnet. Her campaign heavily focused on the gender issue (based upon Parr's unequal treatment of men/women lawyers) quite heavily, and she was elected. Let me look that up real quickly ... OK, having looked in the Oklahoman archives, that was in 1990 when she was only 29 years old ... probably before you were admitted to the bar. Unfortunately, as it developed, she had other problems than gender and it did not all end well for her, but that wasn't related to her gender.

About your, "They'd call us Honey," comment. My wife is older than me and is director of the School of Art at OU in Norman. She commonly and unhesitatingly refers to persons, of whatever gender, as "Honey." She even deigns to call me that from time to time. Does that make her a sexist-in-reverse? If you think that, it is best that you have that discussion with her and not me.

All I'm saying, Penny, is that your perspective and objectivity is possibly blurred by your subjective point of view and that you might need to lighten up a bit about how you view rock and roll tunes as well as gender attitudes in the lawyer work place. Sure, there is a basis for what you say, generally -- but I'm still not persuaded about rock and roll tunes and lyrics ... you've not proved your case, in my estimation. But, as to the legal environment, you stretch your case a bit too far, in my opinion. Not that I've not wanted to pat some (not all) female lawyers on their butts, but haven't as yet succumbed to the temptation ... but that's just me, an old geezer, who always enjoys having a case with a woman adversary. My bad. I'm just a guy. But old bad guys get by with quite a lot, just because they are old and harmless. Hoo-ahh!

[PennyQuilts]

Check out my post and do the math. I'd say the ones who gave us the most trouble were born before WWII. That seems to be the cutting off point in terms of attitudes. Baby boomers were no real trouble.

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." I have, a couple of times - in full view of other members of the bar and clients. In job interviews, I've had a male partner ask me if I thought I could stand up to a male litigator. That was in 1993. Two friends of mine were asked if they were planning on having children in the next five years. One was asked if she used a reliable birthcontrol. That was in 1990. I could mention more but like I said, it was primarily the guys born before the war that had the sexist attitudes.

As for the lady who called everyone honey - I do too. But I don't call one gender honey and treat the other more formally/professionally. There's the difference.

Doug, I don't want want to give you the wrong impression about my opinion of rock and roll lyrics. I enjoy them, don't take offense, and my point was that they demonstrated a swift change in attitudes towards women. If you don't see that, fine. I certainly do and honestly can't imagine how that is going over your head.

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." ***

It only happened once.

As for your experiences about "little lady," those are precisely the kinds of things that probably shape and narrow your objectivity ... all valid experiences, but nonetheless narrowing your ability or willingness to be "above it all" and be more objective. I mean, IF you were not a woman, and IF you were a guy living through the same period, would you be writing the same things? All I'm saying is that your bias is showing. Of course, perhaps mine is, too.

[Generals64]

It only happened once.

I'd have paid GOOD Money to have seen that. Oops....Sorry Doug I know your Gender and I know Penny's ... But, that would have been hilarious...to me...I better get out of this judicial debate and go back to running a Dime Store.....I still remember (changing the subject) the old Nickle and Dime stores throughout the country.

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." ***

It only happened once.

I'd have paid GOOD Money to have seen that. Oops....Sorry Doug I know your Gender and I know Penny's ... But, that would have been hilarious...to me...I better get out of this judicial debate and go back to running a Dime Store.....I still remember (changing the subject) the old Nickle and Dime stores throughout the country.

Are we having fun yet?

Rock and roll is here to stay!

[PennyQuilts]

It only happened once.

As for your experiences about "little lady," those are precisely the kinds of things that probably shape and narrow your objectivity ... all valid experiences, but nonetheless narrowing your ability or willingness to be "above it all" and be more objective. I mean, IF you were not a woman, and IF you were a guy living through the same period, would you be writing the same things? All I'm saying is that your bias is showing. Of course, perhaps mine is, too.

Doug, just what is is that you think I can't be objective about? My whole premise has been that things have changed dramatically regarding women than they used to be back in the fifties and sixties. Are you trying to argue that things are pretty much the same?

[CarltonsKeeper]

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!

[Generals64]

No, this is keeping things interesting......

[PennyQuilts]

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!

Spoken like a true man!! hahahahaha!!

Fortunately, I really like men, even though I consider myself to be a feminist.

[CarltonsKeeper]

Spoken like a true man!! hahahahaha!!

Fortunately, I really like men, even though I consider myself to be a feminist.

Your also a good sport with a good sense of humor and Doug as welll!!! Being the Independent-Fence Walking Republicrat that I am, I agree with both of you!! LOL !!!

[Doug Loudenback]

Your also a good sport with a good sense of humor and Doug as welll!!! Being the Independent-Fence Walking Republicrat that I am, I agree with both of you!! LOL !!!

Well, Penny (although she is clearly substantially undervaluing herself ... she is certainly worth at least a quarter) and I can certainly agree about that.

[flintysooner]

I think the discussion certainly reveals how difficult it is to understand and appreciate the feelings of those who have experienced discrimination. That is undoubtedly true whether the discrimination is due to race or gender or something else.

Gender discrimination in a peculiar way is even more complex than racial because there is the obvious physical difference but there is also the cultural role bias.

I know in my particular age group women felt pressure from both the emerging culture and the one preceding. I think those a few years older were more accepting of the previous roles and those a few years younger were more able to apprehend the new freedom. But those in the transition felt pressure and guilt regardless.

It certainly is worth remembering that the 15th amendment preceded the 19th by 50 years.

[PennyQuilts]

I think the discussion certainly reveals how difficult it is to understand and appreciate the feelings of those who have experienced discrimination. That is undoubtedly true whether the discrimination is due to race or gender or something else.

Gender discrimination in a peculiar way is even more complex than racial because there is the obvious physical difference but there is also the cultural role bias.

I know in my particular age group women felt pressure from both the emerging culture and the one preceding. I think those a few years older were more accepting of the previous roles and those a few years younger were more able to apprehend the new freedom. But those in the transition felt pressure and guilt regardless.

It certainly is worth remembering that the 15th amendment preceded the 19th by 50 years.

Yup. Hell, I am just praying for menopause so I can get out of the whole situation and be an old granny!

[Doug Loudenback]

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!

I'm seeing the doctor on Monday. My only real concerns are that she'll slap me up on my face and tell me, "Ha ha. Too late you stupid old mother _ucker. You are doomed to live the remnant of your life in the same pathetic shell of a form that you presently have," adding, "Now, put on these ..." Uh oh. I've gone too far. We won't get more particular about that just now.

[PennyQuilts]

I'm seeing the doctor on Monday. My only real concerns are that she'll slap me up on my face and tell me, "Ha ha. Too late you stupid old mother _ucker. You are doomed to live the remnant of your life in the same pathetic shell of a form that you presently have," adding, "Now, put on these ..." Uh oh. I've gone too far. We won't get more particular about that just now.

Sucks to get old but the alternative is worse...

[Doug Loudenback]

Sucks to get old but the alternative is worse...

One would hope.

[PennyQuilts]

At least those old timers aren't pinching my butt, anymore!!! <vbg>

Sigh....

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, just what is is that you think I can't be objective about? My whole premise has been that things have changed dramatically regarding women than they used to be back in the fifties and sixties. Are you trying to argue that things are pretty much the same?

When were you born, Penny? Do you have any experience with the 50s and 60s? But, no, I'm not arguing that things are the same, they are not and they are much better all around. I'm simply challenging your objectivity. Now, about pinching your butt, as much as I would like to, you'd probably slap the **** out of me. How about this: Next southsiders meeting that we both attend, how about we give each other a big hug, instead? Maybe I'll get lucky.

Are you liking this, Voyer Generals64?

I am.

By the way, Penny, did you have great conversations like this when you lived back east, before you moved back to Oklahoma City? Not.

[PennyQuilts]

When were you born, Penny? Do you have any experience with the 50s and 60s? But, no, I'm not arguing that things are the same, they are not and they are much better all around. I'm simply challenging your objectivity.

1958. I wasn't a woman in the fifties and sixties and can only go with what I was taught and observed. The lyrics of the songs mirror exactly how I was raised and all my girlfriends were raised. Example - in my home, we were a bit progressive in that we expected the girls AND the boys to go to college. But the girls only had to go two years, "in case something happens to your husband." Girls were supposed to take typing classes. I was quite the rebel when I refused to do it.
I don't think most men can really understand what it is like to be an 8 year old girl (who really believed in god) taught that god made MAN and women were an afterthought created to be his companion. Or what it is like to have the masculine pronouns be the standard. Or what it is like to find out that if you beat the boys at chess or arm wrestling when you are 11 (like you've been doing for years) they think you are weird (and the girls who dumb it down get all the attention and are considered normal). We didn't have girls' baseball teams (with the cool uniforms) because if the ball hit you in the chest, it could cause cancer. So for the first 8 years of our lives, we played sandlot baseball with the boys, then were supposed to sit on the sidelines and cheer while they put on uniforms and got the glory. I recall when they had the big whooptedo when Disney made one of the cartoon characters actually do something besides be rescued. Don't get me wrong, I like men and love the differences between the sexes. But as a young girl, it was painful to change into a woman and suddenly be deemed duller, less important and considered weird if you weren't passive and falling on every word of some guy who is dumb as a rock but still "assumed" to be smarter until you proved otherwise. It was a tough world back when assumptions were made about your intelligence and aptitude based on gender. And it isn't easy to be a smart kid automatically assumed to be more suited to fetching coffee than arguing a case in court. Thank god things have changed.

[Doug Loudenback]

Penny, you just made my point about objectivity.

And I do understand what you are saying. Between marriages (1981-1984) I visited my mom more than I had before. She lived in Lawton, and on one visit, she was recounting her great experiences as a young girl when attending Trinity College for 2 years in Waxachaie, Texas. Her family was poor and a relative who was also a teacher there was providing her room and board. This would have been in the late 1920s or early 1930s, I think. And, after talking about those good times, she then shifted gears and started talking about something else. I said, "Wait, you didn't finish the story. What happened about Waxachaie?" I asked. She said, "Well, that (which would have been her junior year) was when it was time for Carrol (her younger brother) to go to college," she said matter of factly and without any sign of emotion. He simply took her place there (family economics could only afford to send one child to college), and she again started talking about something else. I again said, "Stop! Go back to the story. Weren't you angry and upset about that?" and she nonchalantly passed it off and said no, not at all. That's just the way things were back then, she said. So, she came back home (to Clinton), did some stuff there and came to marry my father in the early 1930s. He was an alcoholic and mistreated her badly (I am told) and they divorced when I was 2 or 3 years old. But, in talking with her about her younger years at Trinity College, that was the time that her eyes had a special sparkle and it was clearly the best time of her life, at least as far as I could see or know. But, try as I did, I was unable to drag out of her any sense of anger, regret, resentment or anything in that line of things about that time being cut short because of her gender which it clearly was. I wondered long and hard about that ... why no anger? Was she being honest in her recollections or was she masking something deeply hidden that she refused to show? I'll never know, and I'm sure that I'll never completely understand if she was being completely candid with me when recounting those days of joy that were cut short because she was a woman and not a man ... how could she not have been angry or at least sad?

Of course, my 1st wife and I raised our daughter (and son) quite differently and I am quite proud of her and her life which took a different course than my mother's did. This isn't abut my son, but I am quite proud of him as well.

Penny, I do understand what you are saying.

[papaOU]

At least those old timers aren't pinching my butt, anymore!!! <vbg>

Sigh....

I'll fix that!!

[flintysooner]

Doug, I think that "That's just the way things were..." attitude is exactly what I recall about the women a few years older than my group. That level of acceptance made things a whole lot easier at least in certain, narrow terms.

Probably there wasn't a specific time when this happened everywhere. So there's probably a much broader range of ages in the transitional group than I've realized.

Not that this isn't painting with too broad a brush because there were plenty of exceptions.

Probably something similar happened with race and the impact of World War II. Experiencing legal integration undoubtedly makes it difficult to willingly reenter the world of discrimination.

[PennyQuilts]

If I had to guess, I'd say she probably was disappointed but not resentful. Your reality is your reality. Just the way it is. I can talk about the boys getting to play ball with the neat uniforms while the girls didn't but it never crossed my mind that there was anything unfair about that and I didn't resent it. It wasn't until later that I thought about how that shaped perceptions. And on another point, I wouldn't have expected women to be drafted, either. But young men being drafted was going on during Vietnam and many of those men DIED - they didn't just have to skip little league. I was passionately opposed to the draft but the notion of women not being drafted or the fairness/unfairness of that wasn't even on my radar. For that matter, to this day, I find it much easier to accept men working with wives staying home than the other way around. I am pretty much old school, at least compared to the kids, including my own.

And Doug, I'll take that hug but this conversation hasn't been uncomfortable, for me, anyway. I trust your judgment and your fairness. Very little you could say on the message board would sidestep the basic premise that you are a stand up, considerate guy.

But now, Papa - You're a cutie pie but - oh my, no, no!! <vbg>