Crossroads Mall

[okclove]

Ok, I have read all of these posts and just have to chuckle. No, Dillards is not coming back. take the time to contact Dillards, and they will inform you that they have no plans with the location. They do still own the building and as such, are required to maintain it.
The former owners (MMP) have nothing to do with Dillards. Being located in the same state, does not mean that they are affiliated.

Crossroads died because Macerich, who sold the mall to MMP, has luxury malls on the west coast. When Crossroads mortgage hit 30 years and was about to be paid off, macerich refinanced the mall, took the equity to the west coast and sold the mall, with 0.00 equity to MMP, who really only had an interest in Nowrthwest arkansas mall.

The Feds will do nothing with the mall except sell it. They bailed out Bear Stearns and are now stuck with all of the toxic assets, Crossroads being one of them.

Crossroads will have a new purpose. hang tight and watch the news.

Any of yoi on here insulting the southside should be ashamed of yourself. To talk about south OKC, the mall, and anything else south of I-40 is disrespectful. Who are you or anyone else to judge a part of your own city and want any part of it to die? I do not feel comfortable in NE OKC, but do I go on ranting about drug dealers, prositiutes, and such? That exists all over OKC. It's just that people like you want to make a big deal out of what happens on the southside. FACT: there are more known gang sets north of I-40 than anywhere on the south side.

[okclove]

xxxxx

[sgt. pepper]

Crossroads will have a new purpose. hang tight and watch the news.

Do you know something we don't?

[Jesseda]

Breaking news !!! Crossroads mall will soon be the world largest bordello (brothel) for a new reality series. HBO will buy the mall for there new series called JUST PASSING THROUGH.. Crew and cast will live on site.. This is going to be huge.. Now this is just a rumor I heard so its not 100% yet

[jn1780]

Maybe they will shoot a Blue's Brothers remake chase scene and Dillard's will have a sale called "Crossroads Last Gasp". LOL, I hope this isn't in Crossroad's future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Square_Mall

[SoonerDave]

I didn't say that people in Moore will come and shop in Capitol Hill, although it is quite plausible that if Capitol Hill were gentrified it would be a cultural option for the entire southside.

You, as do many others, still have this narrow view of the southside as existing in what seems to be a two square mile starting around SW 29th. It hasn't been that small in nearly my entire lifetime.

[quote]

You are ignorant if you think it's that we dislike the southside. It's that we dislike what Crossroads did to the southside and we dislike massive indoor shopping malls in general. In fact, in all the tons of retail projects underway right now and commensurate for the last 10 years, a shockingly low amount of them are indoor shopping malls compared to the 80s and 90s when they were all the rage. The fact is that it's a dead concept and has been realized for what it is--a drain on closer-in ma and pa retail districts.

You actually think that if Crossroads had never been built that Capitol Hill would still be this hub of vibrant social and retail activity? Good grief, the deterioration and flight out of that region of OKC started when I was a kid before they ever broke ground on Crossroads.

In fact it is out of respect for the southside (as a southside local myself) that many of us detest Crossroads and want to see Capitol Hill become the southside's hub. If you hate Capitol Hill and have all this love for Crossroads, then in fact, it is really you who wants to see the southside fail.

Ah, so you are the paragon of virtue and perpetual referee on what is the "real" southside, eh? South Oklahoma City goes beyond SW 29th, Spartan. There's no earthly reason to expect it could compete with Bricktown or serve as an ongoing draw for folks whose address is on the order of 149th or 134th. But, according to you, if I don't want "near" SW OKC to enjoy a renaissance, I'm a hater of "real" S. OKC. That's patently ridiculous.

[quote]Um, not really. Sure--we wouldn't be as opposed to seeing Northpark or Shepherd brought back, though we'd definitely be scratching our heads as well. In case you aren't aware, Crossroads really was trashy folk central.
[quote]

At least you admit your bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. My family and I spent plenty of time in Crossroads, so I'm guessing I'm among the kingpins of the trashy folk of whom you're so fearful.

Northpark is a dead mall but somehow it managed to stay classy nonetheless. Malls in general are filled to the brim with grotesque specimens, but dying malls more so than others, and especially dying malls named Crossroads--and that was 5-10 years ago when times began to change.

Its a lot easier to stay "classy" when the area surrounding you isn't deteriorating on a daily basis. And you're rife with your own hypocrisy in that you spew hatred for enclosed shopping malls just a few sentences ago, yet here discard all that and admit that you wouldn't care about a mall coming back if it were what you deem to be the "right" part of town, consisting exclusively of only the folks you deem to be "non-trashy."

Yeah, but are you even referring to ANYTHING north of 104th? Lol--and what "near great public parks" are you talking about? My parents' still live behind Earlywine, and I could go on and on for days about how Earlywine barely qualifies as a park IMO. We can at least boast about having several "near great fields with walking trails."

Who cares what the boundary is?? Are you trying to worsen the bigotry against south OKC by creating even *new* divisions between the "northern" half of S. OKC and the "southern" half??? Good grief, man, stop the hate. Once again, South OKC doesn't stop where you say it does.

Interesting how *you* mention Earlywine, when I said "park," (without mentioning a name), then you tear it down. Just more strawman "I hate this, so everyone else obviously should" nonsense.

So why do you hate Capitol Hill so much? Racist? Elitist? Too far to drive? Are you a US Grant guy or something? Sheesh..

Nice, I don't endorse your view, so I'm a racist that hates Capitol Hill. Give me a physical break.

If someone wants to try to do something to Capitol Hill, power to them. But this idea that we're going to recreate it as the social and retail hub of south OKC doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen with Bricktown a shade north. That said, if someone who has the resources wants to give it a shot, hey, I have no problem with it. Either way, you're just manufacturing this issue as a pivot for trashing and spewing your personal hatred against the rest of S. OKC.

The thing you don't realize is that folks in far south OKC are just as much a part of this city as everyone else, no matter how much you hate and loathe them, or their parks, or their walking trails, or whatever else it is that you hate about them.

BTW, I started this whole thread about Dillards and Crossroads. I make no pretense or suggestion that Crossroads is ever going to become any big-time retail presence again. But, if the rumor proves true, it shows someone is willing to take the risk, and that deserves props in my book. And I'd say the same thing if someone undertook a similar project in Capitol Hill, or any other distressed area.

[Jesseda]

Sooner Dave, I am glad that Dillards might be going back in to crossroads, and I do not understand what the big deal is with the south vs north, its like we are in the civil war of retail and types of people here whats goin on?

[Rover]

It doesn't matter north, south, east or west....development follows and anticipates money. Deteriorating neighborhoods in any area lose better retailers and property owners. It is all about the economics folks. To argue that it is easier to maintain and grow good retail in areas of higher income and better property isn't racist, it is economics. South OKC has plenty of great development going on, but it isn't in Capital Hill...it is further south. And Shepherd Mall got gunned down by Penn Square and Quail Springs. The only color that dominates in this is green.

For Capital Hill to come back, the local businesspeople in the area have to invest to bring the area back to desirable for the target audience they have identified. They have to give them a REASON to come back and shop, spend time and move back there. Look to the Asian district to see how things can start to improve when the neighborhood residents and businessmen make a concerted effort and put their money where their concerns are. Just WISHING for an area to come is pretty naive. That is until it becomes so worthless that the property can be had for next to nothing and whole areas can be cleared to start over or are repurposed. Ask Detroit where whole neighborhoods are being turned back into farms rather than the public continuing to support totally deteriorated neighborhoods. Shoot, the core to shore park is affordable because the property owners there have let it deteriorate to the point of it being affordable to clear it out and make it public space.

[metro]

Sooner Dave, I am glad that Dillards might be going back in to crossroads, and I do not understand what the big deal is with the south vs north, its like we are in the civil war of retail and types of people here whats goin on?

Demographics are what matters, period.

[Spartan]

[QUOTE=SoonerDave;356440]You, as do many others, still have this narrow view of the southside as existing in what seems to be a two square mile starting around SW 29th. It hasn't been that small in nearly my entire lifetime.

[quote]




You actually think that if Crossroads had never been built that Capitol Hill would still be this hub of vibrant social and retail activity? Good grief, the deterioration and flight out of that region of OKC started when I was a kid before they ever broke ground on Crossroads.



Ah, so you are the paragon of virtue and perpetual referee on what is the "real" southside, eh? South Oklahoma City goes beyond SW 29th, Spartan. There's no earthly reason to expect it could compete with Bricktown or serve as an ongoing draw for folks whose address is on the order of 149th or 134th. But, according to you, if I don't want "near" SW OKC to enjoy a renaissance, I'm a hater of "real" S. OKC. That's patently ridiculous.

[quote]Um, not really. Sure--we wouldn't be as opposed to seeing Northpark or Shepherd brought back, though we'd definitely be scratching our heads as well. In case you aren't aware, Crossroads really was trashy folk central.

At least you admit your bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. My family and I spent plenty of time in Crossroads, so I'm guessing I'm among the kingpins of the trashy folk of whom you're so fearful.



Its a lot easier to stay "classy" when the area surrounding you isn't deteriorating on a daily basis. And you're rife with your own hypocrisy in that you spew hatred for enclosed shopping malls just a few sentences ago, yet here discard all that and admit that you wouldn't care about a mall coming back if it were what you deem to be the "right" part of town, consisting exclusively of only the folks you deem to be "non-trashy."



Who cares what the boundary is?? Are you trying to worsen the bigotry against south OKC by creating even *new* divisions between the "northern" half of S. OKC and the "southern" half??? Good grief, man, stop the hate. Once again, South OKC doesn't stop where you say it does.

Interesting how *you* mention Earlywine, when I said "park," (without mentioning a name), then you tear it down. Just more strawman "I hate this, so everyone else obviously should" nonsense.



Nice, I don't endorse your view, so I'm a racist that hates Capitol Hill. Give me a physical break.

If someone wants to try to do something to Capitol Hill, power to them. But this idea that we're going to recreate it as the social and retail hub of south OKC doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen with Bricktown a shade north. That said, if someone who has the resources wants to give it a shot, hey, I have no problem with it. Either way, you're just manufacturing this issue as a pivot for trashing and spewing your personal hatred against the rest of S. OKC.

The thing you don't realize is that folks in far south OKC are just as much a part of this city as everyone else, no matter how much you hate and loathe them, or their parks, or their walking trails, or whatever else it is that you hate about them.

BTW, I started this whole thread about Dillards and Crossroads. I make no pretense or suggestion that Crossroads is ever going to become any big-time retail presence again. But, if the rumor proves true, it shows someone is willing to take the risk, and that deserves props in my book. And I'd say the same thing if someone undertook a similar project in Capitol Hill, or any other distressed area.

Yeah... apparently I loathe people in far south OKC and don't consider them part of this city. Unfortunately I don't have time to get very far through this very asinine, backward, circular, and fallacious post. You might just do us all a favor and avoid any discussions that are city-related and planning-involved if you don't want to address the urban south side, and only want to talk about the far south side. That's exactly the myopic thinking that got the urban south side where it is today.

It is fascinating to me that you imply that I am trying to create divisions at I-240 splitting the southside in half. Reality is that you evidently could care less about the urban south side, especially if you want to see Crossroads Mall come back. What you don't realize is that just because something you are familiar with is in disrepair does not mean it has to be brought back. To be frank, Crossroads is a piece of crap to begin with. There is nothing worth saving and bringing back in the first place there. The fall of Crossroads is a huge opportunity for the south side--that is retail demand that has opened up--we can only have so much development that the market can support, and this gives us an opportunity to pull off a major development on the southside and hopefully do it in some way that can save the urban parts. That is my hope at least.

If some idiots really do try and revive Crossroads or if all of the retail that replaces it goes along 240 or south of there, then I am pragmatic enough to realize that there goes the outside shot to use development to revitalize the southside. That's what this is about. And demographically, why not? The area between I-40 and I-240 is actually one of the fastest growing areas of the city..not in terms of new bldg permits obviously, but definitely in terms of population growth. It's also the densest portion of the city and has some of the highest traffic counts, particularly along Western all the way from the river to I-240.

Look at it in context of everything going on in the city right now. The area just south of downtown is going to become a development hotspot if we play our cards right. I'm a huge C2S skeptic and I can even say that much about it. If the southside is gentrified as far south as 15th, who is to say that it wouldn't cross the Oklahoma River? There is already a huge mixed-use project planned on the south shore of the river. Capitol Hill IS strategically positioned for a comeback if we can make it the downtown for the southside and infuse it with retail that will be relevant to the people living there. It can't just be what exists there now though. It has to have broad appeal to the entire population, which includes white people.

[Platemaker]

EVERYTHING from South Grand to the Oklahoma River is a potential hotspot & is the most architecturally and historically significant part of the southside.

[bornhere]

Maybe they could use the Crossroads parking lot for the Grand Prix.

[Jesseda]

I still say turn it into one of the world largest halloween park, have 4 large haunted houses _each department store, and the rest of the spaces halloween themed events and midway games , pumpkin patch...at least the mall would be busy on month out of the year

[Lindsay Architect]

I've said this before but all you can see from I-35 is the loading dock of Best Buy and that back of the ugly strip center that backs up to the highway all the way to 66th street. If all of that density was cleared out and you could actually see the big mall on the hill, it would attract more stores. I think whoever runs the place should offer to renovate the JCP location and offer to work with Best Buy to relocate there, and start cleaning up the density so you can see the mall, maybe offer a few nice restaurant chains along the highway, clean up the large parking lot and add better lighting and landscaping. They should cater to stores that aren't in the other OKC malls, like BN or Borders (there are cool 2-story bookstores in Dallas malls), ToysRus, a sports store, anything really... it just seems like a huge waste of infastructure and good for Dillards for giving it a shot.
I know the 'in' thing now is open air malls but but they were all originally run out of business by enclosed malls, now there is this huge waste, whatever the price tag is on that building it is far less than what could be built today, and its in good condition, it just needs a facelift and that's cheap construction, where are all the MAPSesque developers with $$ ?
If it had unique stores/anchors and a nice food court like PennSquare, it would be a great alternative around the metro, and one thing PennSquare can never compete with is Parking, I would rather not go there just because of the traffic jams, and around the Holidays, forget it.
I was in kid in the 80's and you could still see the cool pyramid roof structure going on from the highway, that's a unique symbol that attracts people, but as long as you can't see the place nothing will happen there. How about bring it back and LED-light the pyramids at night? Be sustainable.

[flintysooner]

I suppose if you think energy will become cheaper in the future; then, an enclosed mall that requires heating and cooling and depends entirely on automobile traffic might make some kind of sense.

Someone would have to figure out how to manage the enormous maintenance costs that would have to be recovered from the tenants.

Then there is the problem of finding tenants. Dillard's isn't exactly the best bet financially although certainly better than Barnes and Noble.

[bluedogok]

All malls seemed to have developed the out-parcels over the years so that is nothing that other malls haven't had to deal with. A good, healthy mall shouldn't have to be "seen" from the adjacent roadways. Parts of (Austin) Highland Mall can be seen from I-35 and it was not built on I-35 but yet it is a failing mall. In contrast, Barton Square Mall can't be seen from Capitol of Texas highway (360) or Mopac (Loop 1) but yet is a healthy mall with Nordstrom being added about 5 years ago. Sure visibility helps but it isn't a "make or break" thing, mall management and investment is, highways all over the country are littered with failing enclosed malls with highway visibility. Westminster Mall (Denver) is visible from the Boulder Highway (US-36) but is facing foreclosure while the mall in the Interlochen area is surrounded by development and has limited visibility from 36 and seems to be doing pretty well. Older malls face different challenges and the previous ownership of Crossroads wasn't up to the task.

I still think redevelopment into an outdoor mall retaining the anchors and maybe some of the current buildings adding onto them is the best redevelopment scenario. The pyramid structure could possibly be retained in some way.

[Lindsay Architect]

The tenants didn't leave oringally because of paying the AC bill, they left because nobody shopped there anymore and they made no money. I'm just giving a brainstorm of why I think that it is dead because it's not visible to the heavy traffic passing by everyday, and with Dillard's lead it's a good oportunity for someone with money to make use of the site. Energy certainly will not get cheaper, but if the systems were updated the energy bills would be minimal compared to what there were 20-30 years ago when the place was thriving. And as far as cars, this one of the biggest suburban cities in the US, their not going away. Its good to have the whole mixed use and urbanism ideal, I'm all for it, but that won't happen overnight so a mojority of the people going anywhere will be depending on the automobile. And the BN coment was an ideal comparing several malls in Dallas where they are a large tenant and it seems to work out great, they are always full, its just something to magnet people to other stores and there isn't one in the area, it doesnt have to be in a 2-story anchor location, but something quite a bit larger than the bookstore that was there.

[bluedogok]

The tenants didn't leave oringally because of paying the AC bill, they left because nobody shopped there anymore and they made no money. I'm just giving a brainstorm of why I think that it is dead because it's not visible to the heavy traffic passing by everyday, and with Dillard's lead it's a good oportunity for someone with money to make use of the site.

Poor access to the mall for those unfamiliar is a problem that I think the location has always had. Once you learn how to get in there it wasn't that difficult but signage and access from the highway has always been lacking. Most need an easy way to get in and the nature of that interchange prevented that.

Energy certainly will not get cheaper, but if the systems were updated the energy bills would be minimal compared to what there were 20-30 years ago when the place was thriving. And as far as cars, this one of the biggest suburban cities in the US, their not going away. Its good to have the whole mixed use and urbanism ideal, I'm all for it, but that won't happen overnight so a mojority of the people going anywhere will be depending on the automobile. And the BN coment was an ideal comparing several malls in Dallas where they are a large tenant and it seems to work out great, they are always full, its just something to magnet people to other stores and there isn't one in the area, it doesnt have to be in a 2-story anchor location, but something quite a bit larger than the bookstore that was there.

That is one thing that I think too many in the architecture/planning profession tend to ignore, that outside of the Northeast cars are not going away and we should do our best to manage them in the best way we can and mesh them into the planning process. Some of the newest mixed-use developments that I have been to try to act like they don't exist and it always creates a problem once the idyllic "new-urbanist" planning ideals meets the real world.

[Lindsay Architect]

I don't no as much about everyone elses malls, but Crossroads is pretty close to where a lot of people live and work, and all those people go elsewhere to shop because nothings there. Maybe visibility isnt everything, and I don't suggest dozing everything, but they could at least clean up the development that is empty and plan it a little better, TX road house, the theater etc. are fine...
Quail Springs is pretty well developed on most sides, but it works because most of it is restaurants that face memorial road and when people are through eating, they can go walk around a comfortable mall and spend more money and see a movie or something.
And I like open are shopping centers too, its back in, but we have a lot of that, and I'm just thinking a revitalized Crossroads is just something different.

[Lindsay Architect]

It does have poor access, but I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have a hub of some sort that is visible and appeals to people in a way it hasn't and other places don't people will figure out how to get there until that problem can be solved.

[flintysooner]

The tenants didn't leave oringally because of paying the AC bill, they left because nobody shopped there anymore and they made no money. I'm just giving a brainstorm of why I think that it is dead because it's not visible to the heavy traffic passing by everyday, and with Dillard's lead it's a good oportunity for someone with money to make use of the site. Energy certainly will not get cheaper, but if the systems were updated the energy bills would be minimal compared to what there were 20-30 years ago when the place was thriving.

I may not have done a very good job of stating the issue. Let's say a retailer can pay between 6% and 8% of sales for his space including Common Area Maintenance (CAM). So if a location can provide sufficient traffic that a retailer can earn gross revenues of say $400 per sf then that retailer might pay between $24 and $32 per sf for rent including CAM. Now retailers demand that CAM is capped so they know the upper limit but that's not always been true. So some of the older leases at Crossroads simply provided that retailers had to pay their proportionate share of the cost of maintaining the common area which is huge. So it was possible that someone had a good lease rate but because of the CAM be unable to be profitable. Crossroads was built when we didn't worry too much about the cost of energy.

I've been told that just the cost of bringing the facility up to minimum usable standards is immense. The cost of renovating to make it energy efficient would be undoubtedly even greater.

If there were no other problems a prospective owner would still have to either invest or finance these improvements. The state of the retail economy is allowing almost no development even in really good areas. And Crossroads isn't in a good area and there are other problems.

And as far as cars, this one of the biggest suburban cities in the US, their not going away. Its good to have the whole mixed use and urbanism ideal, I'm all for it, but that won't happen overnight so a mojority of the people going anywhere will be depending on the automobile. And the BN coment was an ideal comparing several malls in Dallas where they are a large tenant and it seems to work out great, they are always full, its just something to magnet people to other stores and there isn't one in the area, it doesnt have to be in a 2-story anchor location, but something quite a bit larger than the bookstore that was there.

Let's say you were going right by Crossroads and you needed something from JCP back when they were there. The problem was that it took a long time to then acquire your purchase and get back on the road. KSS noticed this trend early on and really profited from it by building off mall stores. And there are so many other demographic changes that have also occurred since 1972 they are too numerous to mention.

Stores except for a very few retailers are not getting larger either.

I don't no as much about everyone elses malls, but Crossroads is pretty close to where a lot of people live and work, and all those people go elsewhere to shop because nothings there. Maybe visibility isnt everything, and I don't suggest dozing everything, but they could at least clean up the development that is empty and plan it a little better, TX road house, the theater etc. are fine...
Quail Springs is pretty well developed on most sides, but it works because most of it is restaurants that face memorial road and when people are through eating, they can go walk around a comfortable mall and spend more money and see a movie or something.
And I like open are shopping centers too, its back in, but we have a lot of that, and I'm just thinking a revitalized Crossroads is just something different.

Don't worry about not knowing everything because most of the people that thought they knew everything found out that what they knew didn't fit a world that is changing more rapidly than it is sometimes possible to confront.

Rather I think it is best to try to think outside the box and try to imagine what some of the trends we now see will bring in the near future. I think it isn't likely to be a Crossroads retail center.

Market areas are very funny things. If someone had a fool proof way of knowing how and why and when and where they wouldn't likely be posting on OKCTalk. But suffice it to say that market areas change on their own and they change even more rapidly when government gets involved. And government certainly did not help Crossroads.

[Spartan]

I've said this before but all you can see from I-35 is the loading dock of Best Buy and that back of the ugly strip center that backs up to the highway all the way to 66th street. If all of that density was cleared out and you could actually see the big mall on the hill, it would attract more stores. I think whoever runs the place should offer to renovate the JCP location and offer to work with Best Buy to relocate there, and start cleaning up the density so you can see the mall, maybe offer a few nice restaurant chains along the highway, clean up the large parking lot and add better lighting and landscaping. They should cater to stores that aren't in the other OKC malls, like BN or Borders (there are cool 2-story bookstores in Dallas malls), ToysRus, a sports store, anything really... it just seems like a huge waste of infastructure and good for Dillards for giving it a shot.
I know the 'in' thing now is open air malls but but they were all originally run out of business by enclosed malls, now there is this huge waste, whatever the price tag is on that building it is far less than what could be built today, and its in good condition, it just needs a facelift and that's cheap construction, where are all the MAPSesque developers with $$ ?
If it had unique stores/anchors and a nice food court like PennSquare, it would be a great alternative around the metro, and one thing PennSquare can never compete with is Parking, I would rather not go there just because of the traffic jams, and around the Holidays, forget it.
I was in kid in the 80's and you could still see the cool pyramid roof structure going on from the highway, that's a unique symbol that attracts people, but as long as you can't see the place nothing will happen there. How about bring it back and LED-light the pyramids at night? Be sustainable.

This would be great if the mall weren't on the wrong side of I-35. Location, location, location. Crossroads' location will never be able to support any of that. The demographics won't support the biggest bookstore in OKC either. Crossroads also doesn't have the visibility, connectivity, and nearby density of Capitol Hill or 44th/Western.

[Spartan]

But suffice it to say that market areas change on their own and they change even more rapidly when government gets involved. And government certainly did not help Crossroads.

Seriously?

Yeah I know..because Crossroads is such a treasure that should be brought back, lets have a MAPS for Crossroads next.

[flintysooner]

Seriously?

Yeah I know..because Crossroads is such a treasure that should be brought back, lets have a MAPS for Crossroads next.

I certainly didn't mean that if that's the idea you gained from my post.

In 1972 there was no I-240 there.

[Matt]

I've said this before but all you can see from I-35 is the loading dock of Best Buy and that back of the ugly strip center that backs up to the highway all the way to 66th street. If all of that density was cleared out and you could actually see the big mall on the hill, it would attract more stores. I think whoever runs the place should offer to renovate the JCP location and offer to work with Best Buy to relocate there

Word on the street is that Best Buy is very interested in relocating to the old Circuit City store at I-240 and Penn. . .