Crossroads Mall

[Martin]

of course there are the occasional crimes in the penn square area but nowhere near that of valley brook area so i feel like that was an unfair comparison.

if you were to actually look at the crime statistics for these two areas, i think you'd be surprised... -M

[EBAH]

All of these crime statistics and class issues, have little to do with it. It is true, there is crime in the Penn Square neighborhood, a shockingly high amount. It is also true there is plenty of shoppers on the south side of town. But what makes Penn a lock for king of OKC shopping malls is about what the neighborhood has to offer shoppers. The neighborhood is packed with stores that compliment, and supplement the offerings of the mall itself. The thing that makes the mall so successful is that it serves as a hub in an area of town that has had a steady stream of retail investment. It is the mall that a family from the suburbs, or even far flung Oklahoma towns come to to shop at the mall, then they travel in a small area of town surrounding it to go to very upscale shops, great bargain shopping, great restaurants etc. The only point I was trying to make about crossroads is that wether deserved or not, it has not had ANY real investment in it's neighboring area in many years. As a result it just isn't the epicenter for OKC shopping that it had a chance to be so may years back. So, this means while it can be turned around from it's current zombie status, it has decades of catching up to do to change its image as an actual shopping destination. This status will also make the rebuilding slow because it will seriously limit it's ability to attract major tenants.

[Oil Capital]

All of these crime statistics and class issues, have little to do with it. It is true, there is crime in the Penn Square neighborhood, a shockingly high amount. It is also true there is plenty of shoppers on the south side of town. But what makes Penn a lock for king of OKC shopping malls is about what the neighborhood has to offer shoppers. The neighborhood is packed with stores that compliment, and supplement the offerings of the mall itself. The thing that makes the mall so successful is that it serves as a hub in an area of town that has had a steady stream of retail investment. It is the mall that a family from the suburbs, or even far flung Oklahoma towns come to to shop at the mall, then they travel in a small area of town surrounding it to go to very upscale shops, great bargain shopping, great restaurants etc. The only point I was trying to make about crossroads is that wether deserved or not, it has not had ANY real investment in it's neighboring area in many years. As a result it just isn't the epicenter for OKC shopping that it had a chance to be so may years back. So, this means while it can be turned around from it's current zombie status, it has decades of catching up to do to change its image as an actual shopping destination. This status will also make the rebuilding slow because it will seriously limit it's ability to attract major tenants.

That can all change. For an example, look at the history of Penn Square Mall itself. It was pretty unhealthy, close to zombie status, prior to its renovation in 1989, and at that time was NOT surrounded by all the retail that is there now (except for the always-struggling 50 Penn Place).

[Jesseda]

if crime and being poor in that area was the case, im suprised certain malls in the l.a metro make a go of it, and the downtown san diego mall is popular but it has homeless people hanging out all outside of it..I would go to crossroads over penn sq if crossroads had a 90% or more occupancy. Yes the mall needs a huge facelift inside and out, but the location compared to other large malls in other cities isnt that bad, look at crime stats in other cities around malls that are thriving

[Architect2010]

Probably because "some of" the low lifes from "South of the River" go to PSM to scope it out and try to rob the wealthy NH folks. Believe me, when I lived in OKC and went to Crossroads Mall, I saw so many skanky, greasy, toothless folks. Yes, PSM has a few skanks but I would guess they come from the other side of the city. (LOL).

I live "South of the River". Am I some mutated freak or something? ;P

[ljbab728]

if crime and being poor in that area was the case, im suprised certain malls in the l.a metro make a go of it, and the downtown san diego mall is popular but it has homeless people hanging out all outside of it..I would go to crossroads over penn sq if crossroads had a 90% or more occupancy. Yes the mall needs a huge facelift inside and out, but the location compared to other large malls in other cities isnt that bad, look at crime stats in other cities around malls that are thriving

I used to live in an area that was sort of equidistant from both malls. I never once thought about crime statistics or what was happening in the surrounding areas when deciding which one to go to. I did often consider traffic congestion and ease of access though. And Crossroads was always ahead in that area.

[ljbab728]

I don't see any reason why Capitol Hill can't become a major retail hub again because of the sheer residential density and quickly growing populations that surround it. It won't be home to a Whole Foods or a Nordstrom anytime soon, but if the city wanted to, they could really turn it into a competitive retail destination that would compete with Moore for southside sales tax dollars. All it would take to get the ball rolling is a well-planned movie theater similar to the Promenade on 4th Street in Sioux City, IA or the Warren Theatre in Wichita's Old Town. You could just take everything that's still at Crossroads and completely move it up to Capitol Hill--no reason why that couldn't happen.

Spartan, that depends on what your definition of a "major retail hub" is. When I was young and lived in Norman, my family went there to go shopping in addition to occasional trips downtown. Will that ever happen again? Unlikely. Can it become a nice southside shopping magnet? Of course it can, with the right kind of development and incentives. What are you suggesting that the city could do to further that?

[ljbab728]

umm we're talking about a little bit of a different situation. One, while there may be a strip of clubs/bars, it's not strip clubs. Adult entertainment, sure but it's not on the same level as Valley Brook. Two, there is the lack of crime and violence that Valley Brook has. Of course there are the occasional crimes in the Penn Square area but nowhere near that of Valley Brook area so I feel like that was an unfair comparison.

So you're saying that if two different areas have a concentration of bars with people imbibing all night that the fact that one area has females exposing their breasts makes that area more unsafe?

[Spartan]

Spartan, that depends on what your definition of a "major retail hub" is. When I was young and lived in Norman, my family went there to go shopping in addition to occasional trips downtown. Will that ever happen again? Unlikely. Can it become a nice southside shopping magnet? Of course it can, with the right kind of development and incentives. What are you suggesting that the city could do to further that?

We need the city to crack down on code violations on Commerce Street, trust me they exist. We need the city to provide some incentives to get a nice first-run movie theater built on Capitol Hill as well. That will be the draw--other development will follow it naturally. I am all about the government being as minimally involved as possible, just making sure that we can realize the full market potential. I think that with C2S redevelopment taking root here in a few years, The Waterfront (Humphreys project), and if we can get something going on Capitol Hill--we could be seeing a southside resurgence. We also need to see through with the planning schemes of 44th Street, and we need new building codes as far south as 59th that are urban. Ban setbacks, require parking in the back, require drive-thru lanes in the back, and so on. Require real masonry on buildings that aren't in the industrial area (east of Shields Blvd). We also need sidewalks on at least every street with a traffic light.

That really isn't that much city action. There's hardly anything that's not typical in suggesting that a major U.S. city do what it can to foster and promote positive inner city environments. Too many people are getting hit on our roads. Too many elderly think the right lane is a good place for one of those hover-round things, too many kids think the right lane is a good place for bicycling, and too many grown adults think it's a good place to peddle some little food truck thing that I see a lot of around the southside. The reality is that there is NO proper place provided for these human-scale transportation modes, and any inner city that doesn't allow for life to occur at the human scale is destined to become a cesspool hardly worth caring about. A massive Del City is where we're headed if we don't shape up the southside while we still can.

We also need people to SUPPORT great businesses down there like the Grill on the Hill. Admittedly, not all of the businesses down there are "white people-friendly" to put it blatantly, but some of them really are and they're also great places.

[Jesseda]

I know penn sq mall has been on the news several times for some kind of rape, theft, etc in the parking lot.. One of the problems with crossroads was lack of security or should i say bad security, I worked at the mall 10 years ago, and when security is called they take thier sweet time. vSo being back to the subject, I am glad the mall is going to get some tenants, hopefully the mall can find a buyer soon and bring it back to it heyday, its going to take a lot but it can be done

[kevinpate]

Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.

[Kerry]

if you were to actually look at the crime statistics for these two areas, i think you'd be surprised... -M

Because what passes for crime in the PSM area is different then what passes for crime around CR.

[Martin]

because what passes for crime in the psm area is different then what passes for crime around cr.

oh... i get it. assault & battery around psm isn't really assault & battery. burglary around psm isn't really burglary. -M

[Kerry]

oh... i get it. assault & battery around psm isn't really assault & battery. burglary around psm isn't really burglary. -M

I had two palm trees stolen from my yard when our house was constructed. I contacted the police. If someone in the Gulfaire section of Jacksonville reported a 'landscaping crime' they would be laughed at by the police. Some segments of our population are much more tolderable of crime and criminals rarely call the cops on other criminals. That is all I am saying.

[Martin]

some segments of our population are much more tolerable of crime and criminals rarely call the cops on other criminals.

granted... but that tolerance is certainly going to vary depending on the crime. besides... i'd still say that statistics indicate that more crimes are committed in the vicinity of psm even if you assume that crimes are underreported in the cr area.

-M

[bluedogok]

Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.

I think an Alamo Drafthouse style of theater could work, something that is not just a typical theater competing against the mega-theater chains.

I don't really see any reason why Capitol Hill couldn't turn into a strip like Western around Crown Heights or even an area like South Congress here in Austin. When my wife moved to Austin 18 years ago South Congress was not an area that you wanted to be in, day or night it was more like Lincoln used to be with the seedy motels and prostitutes walking up and down the street just south of the river. Now it is a "hip strip" and a very vibrant area.

I don't ever see Crossroads as constructed coming back to being a "premier mall" in the city. What I do think could happen is another life as a redeveloped lifestyle center with Dillard's as an anchor even reusing their building and remodeling it. The Dillard's buildings at The Domain or Hill Country Galleria are really no different than their typical enclosed mall buildings except they have another exterior wall/doors instead of an interior gate or something similar.

[Spartan]

Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.

The southside is very underserved, plus we'll probably lose the Crossroads theater soon. There is nothing between I-40 and I-240. Soon there will be nothing between I-40 and south Moore, which is only a short hop to the south in the way that the entire metro is a short hop.

[bombermwc]

Yes, Thunder is crazy. It's been confirmed.

I'd just assume see Crossroads permanently close, dozes, and made into just about anything else. Hey, maybe they can build the county jail there...lol.

[Thunder]

Yes, Thunder is crazy. It's been confirmed.

I'd just assume see Crossroads permanently close, dozes, and made into just about anything else. Hey, maybe they can build the county jail there...lol.

How am I confirmed crazy? Why? Last I checked I am very sane and my mom is Penny.

[remy11]

So you're saying that if two different areas have a concentration of bars with people imbibing all night that the fact that one area has females exposing their breasts makes that area more unsafe?

No, what I'm SAYING is that the first quote was used to make it look like it was such a "trashy" area and if that affected Crossroads, it would surely affect Penn Square. The fact of the matter remains, I'd rather have my own house surrounded with bars than surrounded by strip clubs. This being because of the amounts of prostitution that goes on around strip clubs.

As far as safety goes, do your research. Of course the crime rates are high there but they are not the same as Valley Brook. Not to mention that depending on which side of the mall you are on, there are some very nice neighborhoods. The same can't be said for the Crossroads area.

[ljbab728]

No, what I'm SAYING is that the first quote was used to make it look like it was such a "trashy" area and if that affected Crossroads, it would surely affect Penn Square. The fact of the matter remains, I'd rather have my own house surrounded with bars than surrounded by strip clubs. This being because of the amounts of prostitution that goes on around strip clubs.

I never used the word trashy in describing either area. I said adult entertainment area and that's what the both are. If you call that "trashy" that's your word not mine. And you're being very naive if you think prostitution isn't present in other club areas and from what I've heard stripping isn't that uncommon in the clubs around 39th and Penn even if it isn't the kind you may be used to. The potential for problems is going to be there any time you have a large number of people congregating and drinking late at night. It doesn't matter what the age or economic demographics are. My original point was about whether people take all of that into consideration when shopping at either place and I know it never crossed my mind once.

I hear much more in the news about problems occuring in the parking lots for Walmart and Target and not just in lower income areas. A few years ago my daughter was shopping at Walmart in Edmond and when she came out to her car a man had gotten into her car somehow and disrobed. Luckily for her there were quite a few other people in the parking lot at the time and the man got out and ran away.

[mburlison]

There is a laundry list of things competing for title of worst mistake in OKC history. Crossroads is up there, way above the level of damage of any SandRidge proposal. And you're right, if it weren't for Crossroads, it would have been an empty mall to kill of Capitol Hill--and I'd be hating on that fictional mall as well.

I don't see any reason why Capitol Hill can't become a major retail hub again because of the sheer residential density and quickly growing populations that surround it. It won't be home to a Whole Foods or a Nordstrom anytime soon, but if the city wanted to, they could really turn it into a competitive retail destination that would compete with Moore for southside sales tax dollars. All it would take to get the ball rolling is a well-planned movie theater similar to the Promenade on 4th Street in Sioux City, IA or the Warren Theatre in Wichita's Old Town. You could just take everything that's still at Crossroads and completely move it up to Capitol Hill--no reason why that couldn't happen.

Agree with you Spartan - Capitol Hill - would be fun to build on some of the momentum there. I drove down that way a few weeks ago when I was up here, quite a bit of activity in formerly closed buildings.

[megax11]

As I have stated in a couple of other threads, I kept having dreams of Crossroads being redone.

I can tell everyone exactly how the mall looked, and it was filled to the brim with stores.

Maybe this is the start of that dream coming true.

Dillards plus 5 new stores could be the start of something.

[Kerry]

I wonder if Crossroad might be trying to corner the "outlet" market before the Oklahoma City Outlet Mall is finished.

[megax11]

Does everybody think that Crossroads got into this situation by accident?

CR has not stayed competitive and owners couldn't justify investments even when the economy was rip-roaring. There is nothing in its recent history to suggest the public will support it to the extent needed. Indoor malls are very expensive to maintain and operate and rental rates have to reflect it. When the large shopping areas of Moore and Norman can offer cheaper rent and pass it on with cheaper products due to the lower overhead, then CR has no chance. People don't want to walk from dimly lit parking areas with little or no security to a dingy environment and then spend more money than they would if they drove down the road just a bit farther. Face it, CR is a dinosaur and certainly needs to look at other uses.

I am sure that Dillards might be able to look at re-opening if they don't have to pay for common area and since people can park right outside the store and walk directly in. Otherwise, I doubt they could justify anything there. Face it, CR has been uncompetitive and been in a death spiral for quite awhile.

Crossroad's fate was known from the moment the owners refused to listen to the merchants who wanted the place modernized, so to keep with the look of modern times.

PSM and QSM changed to reflect the times, and those places are thriving.

CRM had so many issues, but the greedy owners refused to do anything to tailor to the needs of the merchants, all the while charging an insane amount of rent.

Now under government control, maybe things will be better... Like I said above, and in other posts, I believe this is the start of my dream coming true. If anyone wants to know specifically what I saw in my dreams, I will be glad to elaberate. I will also say the outside of the mall will see some changes as well, in modernizing.

I can even tell you the day I had the dream, as I logged it, incase I ended up being right.