Why no retail in Bricktown?

[Rover]

If you will notice, Gaslamp has lots of window space at street level and good signage. We have neither in btown.

And Wichita's Old Town retail has been disappearing. Same reason as btown....bar, bar, restaurant, restaurant, shop, bar, restaurant, restaurant, bar restaurant, shop, etc, etc.

[BigD Misey]

OK. ' Been waiting for the right thing to say...delicately, hopefully.

Just got back from my second visit to OKC in 3 weeks. Sadly, it looks like the fervor that was, is lack-luster for now. Even with baseball in town, the foot traffic was fairly light and the area 'seemed' stagnant. It just may be that OKC residents are not active and not spending. I think that is one reason why retailers are holding back for now.
I also think they will wait and see on the location of the Convention Center, the near completion of Project 180, the River projects and the near completion of I-40 before considering any moves. At least that is what i would do. If all of these are to be implemented in the next 5-10 years, building stores can wait while the city comes up with a concrete plan. The longer it takes to complete the hiway and decide not only where but when to build the convention center, the harder it wiil be to sustain the lifeblood of the movement.

[betts]

That's interesting because we were in Bricktown for dinner the other night and there were people everywhere. I think there are a lot more people in Bricktown generally than there ever were in the past. There were people dining al fresco at Bolero and In The Raw and at Starbucks, peole riding in bicycle rickshaws and horse-drawn carriages. We went to Earls at my son's request and had to wait for a seat. It looks like Peach Wave is doing well and I'm guessing sammys will open fairly soon. We were talking about how vibrant it felt.

[SWOKC 4 me]

The wife and I were also in Bricktown this past Saturday night. She made the comment that Bricktown was very busy and she was glad to see that, I agreed. I don't know if it was softball people or locals but it was quite busy when we were there between 7PM and Midnight for dinner and a movie.

[Spartan]

When I opined on Bricktown vibrancy it always used to be very negative, and I know I've gotten more than a negative rap on this forum in the last year or so that I've turned sour I guess. Especially when I would come back from Calgary to OKC and constantly wonder why there is comparatively NOTHING in downtown OKC. And don't even get me started on constantly having to defend it when it comes up in chatting with out of towners..

That's not the case any more. I truly feel like Bricktown maturing before our eyes. I've been in Bricktown probably 5 or more times so far this summer and I've been pleasantly surprised at how active Bricktown has been. I am confident that it will be a while till I complain that Bricktown is dead and not vibrant.

[progressiveboy]

OK. ' Been waiting for the right thing to say...delicately, hopefully.

Just got back from my second visit to OKC in 3 weeks. Sadly, it looks like the fervor that was, is lack-luster for now. Even with baseball in town, the foot traffic was fairly light and the area 'seemed' stagnant. It just may be that OKC residents are not active and not spending. I think that is one reason why retailers are holding back for now.
I also think they will wait and see on the location of the Convention Center, the near completion of Project 180, the River projects and the near completion of I-40 before considering any moves. At least that is what i would do. If all of these are to be implemented in the next 5-10 years, building stores can wait while the city comes up with a concrete plan. The longer it takes to complete the hiway and decide not only where but when to build the convention center, the harder it wiil be to sustain the lifeblood of the movement.

Well Big D, correct me if I am wrong, you live in Dallas correct? So do I, however as much as I like Dallas there downtown is alot less active than OKC especially at night. West end is dead and Deep Ellum lacks hardly nothing but lots of crime! So I have to give OKC kudos for having a more vibrant nightlife and better atmosphere than Big D.

[Rover]

I stayed at the Magnolia in downtown Dallas awhile back. It was scary downtown at night there. Won't do that again. Big D stands for Big Dead at night.

[ljbab728]

How many people live in or adjacent to the Gas Light District? Answer >10,000.

If Bricktown wants retail without a national developer to bring is destination retail then they better start building some apartment and condos on-site. Three or four blocks away in Deep Duece isn't going to cut it.

Kerry, Bricktown might need to attract housing but "Bricktown" can't build housing. It takes developers with money or financing available. That's a very difficult find right now.

[BigD Misey]

Ok, fair enough...
I lived in OKC for 15 years and moved to Florida for a short stint at the out set of Maps around '96, then to Dallas, where ive been for 14 years. I missed all the action! I would like to say i have a soft heart for OKC. I visit about 8-10 full weekends a year since i still have family there. If you consider me at present an 'out of towner', so be it.
In the view of many of you obviously, it was busy. When you broaden the scope, busy i guess is relative.

Maybe it was the time of day i went. Around noon on saturday this weekend and the weekend it hailed, even when it hailed, i was at the colcord at La Baguette, who had NO patrons at that time. Before, that day, I toured the river walk from Toby Keiths to the fountains at sheridan st. Got some decent pictures of what i call 'some traffic'. But it was sporadic at best. Bourbon St Cafe was full but it was surrounded with empty 'storefronts' if i may use the term loosely. Zios wasn't that busy, Falcone's was empty and it just wasnt what i or those i brought with me from out of town, was hoping for. (I was thinking of joining some of you for the 'Photo Walk' on the weekend in between, but was in Louisiana). Now, I'm not a developer, but IF I were scouting for a developer, and this is what i saw for two weekends out of the month for the last two months, what would you have me say!

While SOME were walking around, it certainly wasn't BUSY by any means. I say this in comparison to some of the towns we want to compare ourselves to. Like KC, Austin, SanAntone and it wasnt even approaching the likes of an elite city like Seattle (The Pier), Chicago (Mich. Ave) or New Orleans when it comes to regular foot traffic, throughout the day.

Look, Ive been on this board for over a year and have offered some "outsider views" especially when it comes to development. Not that i am an expert or anything but I have been close to the 'field' for decades, i can tell you how marketers and developer 'generally feel'. I can give you my opinion, thats all. We ALL post opinions here. Shred me if you will, but it was what I saw!

If you base your opinion of 'busy' on evening and special events, the value is flighty. Its every day, all day that the retailers are interested in...regular foot traffic.

Progressiveboy brings up one of three areas that Bricktown and all OKC should pay close attention to: West End, Deep Ellum and in Fort Worth, Sundance Sq. All historic areas, once thriving. Well West end is dead, Deep Ellum is on the way to Dead and Sundance of all places is struggling, and it pains me to see that. All can be linked to other elements.

When west end had the mall and other retail shops open during the day, things were great! It was rollin' from day thru the night. Then, they lost Planet Hollywood, then the mall virtually shut down leaving only clubs and restraunts. The day time traffic dried up with the exiting of the retailers. Where do people go now? Victory Plaza and new developments along the hwy 75 corridore from Knox, Mockingbird and up to Park. Its new and trendy and full of shops with plenty of daytime traffic. Then throw in the games at AAC and its a success. Its what i hope C2S will be!
Deep ellum struggles because the night life just isn't enough to sustain the value. Sundance is hurting because Tandy/Radio shack moved to another location and likely will file bankruptcy or be bought out, taking a large part of daytime traffic away, virtually starving the mall. Fortunately, i think Sundance will pull through with the help of surrounding development like the Bank that was converted to condos after the tornado. All three have a common theme - regular foot traffic, not just at night, but during the day too. It is the lifeblood of retail development, and at this moment, in downtown, on a regular basis...is not enough to bring the big guns in. Empty storefronts are not a calling card for success.

That is why i think the mayor is on the right track with C2S!
Retail Developers - Hillwood, Harvard Co's and Cordish Cos, Developers who are patient, calculating will wait and see...not if, but WHEN they will move! Only, it will likely happen if C2S happens. ITS NOT BASHING MY HOMETOWN and not a detatched generalization, its an observation, and something i have personally witnessed...but, in the end, is still just an opinion.

PS: You aint kiddin' Rover! Not good at night. Stick around the museum, mckinney ave and Victory Plaza area. Its a little better!

[ljbab728]

Ok, fair enough...
ITS NOT BASHING MY HOMETOWN and not a detatched generalization, its an observation, and something i have personally witnessed...but, in the end, is still just an opinion.

I understand what you're saying BigD and I'm sure at the time you were there it was very quiet in comparison to what others may have seen. Every commercial area is going to have good days and bad days and ups and downs.

I just have to keep going back in my thoughts to the days when I would have been afraid to set foot east of the railroad tracks and I'm amazed at what I see now. Having to debate about how this area should be further developed seems to me to be a good problem for OKC to have.

[BigD Misey]

I understand what you're saying BigD and I'm sure at the time you were there it was very quiet in comparison to what others may have seen. Every commercial area is going to have good days and bad days and ups and downs.

I just have to keep going back in my thoughts to the days when I would have been afraid to set foot east of the railroad tracks and I'm amazed at what I see now. Having to debate about how this area should be further developed seems to me to be a good problem for OKC to have.

Yes, it is a far cry from the downtown i knew in the early 80s! So, it is a dissapointing to see SO MUCH vacancy in bricktown. The way Steves article ended up is right. It will take the larger chains to sustain some regularity. I forsee the impact of those retail stores in Bricktown greatly limited though, with C2S on the table. Especially if more blighted area is addressed in the next maps project.
Its just an evolution of the city, much like here in dallas. Who would have thought such a player in the 80's and 90's (West End) would dry up so quickly. But unlike west end, I think Bricktown has unique elements that will always keep it in the game somewhat (the ballpark and riverwalk), just not for major retail in my opinion, for now. (Just addressing the thread topic)

[Kerry]

Kerry, Bricktown might need to attract housing but "Bricktown" can't build housing. It takes developers with money or financing available. That's a very difficult find right now.

What do you mean Bricktown can't build housing? If the property owners in Bricktown can't build housing then who can? N. Oklahoma Ave alone has 6 building that could be converted to housing right now.

[betts]

Yes, it is a far cry from the downtown i knew in the early 80s! So, it is a dissapointing to see SO MUCH vacancy in bricktown. The way Steves article ended up is right. It will take the larger chains to sustain some regularity. I forsee the impact of those retail stores in Bricktown greatly limited though, with C2S on the table. Especially if more blighted area is addressed in the next maps project.
Its just an evolution of the city, much like here in dallas. Who would have thought such a player in the 80's and 90's (West End) would dry up so quickly. But unlike west end, I think Bricktown has unique elements that will always keep it in the game somewhat (the ballpark and riverwalk), just not for major retail in my opinion, for now. (Just addressing the thread topic)

It is disappointing to see so much vacancy in Bricktown. I agree. But it is improving, and significantly, over the last several years. I didn't spend that much time in Bricktown before moving downtown, and I remember it seeming pretty empty. Now that I leave near there, I'm in Bricktown a lot, and most of the time, I'm impressed with the number of people. In the evenings on the weekend, it's incredibly busy. But even Sunday morning when I'm walking to Starbucks for coffee there are people out and about, which I found surprising.

As far as major retail, I seriously doubt that's in the cards for Bricktown. That's why I suggested Bricktown should aim to be like Western: smaller shops with specialty items like the Rhinestone Cowgirl, clothing shops aimed at a particular age group, a shoe store, perhaps a housewares store. Bricktown would be far easier to shop in than Western Ave is because on Western stores are so far apart and it is so pedestrian and parking unfriendly that people usually drive between stores. And yet Western is definitely a destination area for shopping. Bricktown could be too, if either the Bricktown Association would come up with a plan to aggressively market itself to retail or several retailers banded together with a plan to move there. The marketplace is a great beginning, but it won't bring people to Bricktown. It will simply make being in Bricktown more interesting and a more diverse experience than before it existed.

[Bazooka Joe]

Because it has been positioned as an "entertainment" district. To reposition it will take promotion over time. Most small retailers can't afford to reposition the area in the public's mind, and the Bricktown Assn. hasn't been willing to develop a clear position within the public. It takes investment and vision to do that and they have been willing to let the public decide...so they do based on their own experiences. Since the restaurants are what the destination is, that's what they currently think.

.

thats baloney. The Las Vegas Strip is an "entertainment district" and has legions of apparel shopping available not to mention an actual mall as well. (miracle mile shops).

If Vegas can have restaurants with abundant retail, theres no reason Bricktown can not either.

[OKCMallen]

thats baloney. The Las Vegas Strip is an "entertainment district" and has legions of apparel shopping available not to mention an actual mall as well. (miracle mile shops).

If Vegas can have restaurants with abundant retail, theres no reason Bricktown can not either.

Are you really comparing the Strip to Bricktown?

[metro]

Bazooka, the strip has like 4 malls on it (Miracle Mile, Le Boulevard, Crystals, Mandalay Place, Showcase Mall, Forum Shops at Caesars, etc.) and countless retail outlets. Even more than a mall than Miracle Mile is Fashion Show Mall and the newer and higher end Crystals @City Center. However I agree with Mallen, there is NO comparison from the Vegas strip to Bricktown.

Las Vegas Luxury Shopping - CRYSTALS

[Urbanized]

I went into that Red Dirt Emporium a few months back and I was impressed with thier selections, but I remember the guy working in there that was was not that friendly, he may have had a bad day for some reason...

Sorry you had an underwhelming experience. I hate to hear that, as hospitality is our longtime goal and number one priority. Even to the point of having a very aggressive mystery shopping program. Hopefully we caught and corrected that. But in the future, if you ever run across that in any of our businesses, please don't hesitate to PM me here or drop me an e-mail. You may contact me by visiting our website and clicking on the e-mail link. Sorry, don't want to post the actual mailto link here in an effort to avoid spam bots.

Chad

[Spartan]

We should have an OKC Talk meetup tomorrow at the Red Dirt Marketplace. I hope downtown will be packed with deadCENTER, Cocktails on the Skyline, goings on at the Civic Center, a home Redhawks game, and the grand opening of the Marketplace.

[Spartan]

Ok, fair enough...
I lived in OKC for 15 years and moved to Florida for a short stint at the out set of Maps around '96, then to Dallas, where ive been for 14 years. I missed all the action! I would like to say i have a soft heart for OKC. I visit about 8-10 full weekends a year since i still have family there. If you consider me at present an 'out of towner', so be it.
In the view of many of you obviously, it was busy. When you broaden the scope, busy i guess is relative.

Maybe it was the time of day i went. Around noon on saturday this weekend and the weekend it hailed, even when it hailed, i was at the colcord at La Baguette, who had NO patrons at that time. Before, that day, I toured the river walk from Toby Keiths to the fountains at sheridan st. Got some decent pictures of what i call 'some traffic'. But it was sporadic at best. Bourbon St Cafe was full but it was surrounded with empty 'storefronts' if i may use the term loosely. Zios wasn't that busy, Falcone's was empty and it just wasnt what i or those i brought with me from out of town, was hoping for. (I was thinking of joining some of you for the 'Photo Walk' on the weekend in between, but was in Louisiana). Now, I'm not a developer, but IF I were scouting for a developer, and this is what i saw for two weekends out of the month for the last two months, what would you have me say!

While SOME were walking around, it certainly wasn't BUSY by any means. I say this in comparison to some of the towns we want to compare ourselves to. Like KC, Austin, SanAntone and it wasnt even approaching the likes of an elite city like Seattle (The Pier), Chicago (Mich. Ave) or New Orleans when it comes to regular foot traffic, throughout the day.

Look, Ive been on this board for over a year and have offered some "outsider views" especially when it comes to development. Not that i am an expert or anything but I have been close to the 'field' for decades, i can tell you how marketers and developer 'generally feel'. I can give you my opinion, thats all. We ALL post opinions here. Shred me if you will, but it was what I saw!

If you base your opinion of 'busy' on evening and special events, the value is flighty. Its every day, all day that the retailers are interested in...regular foot traffic.

Progressiveboy brings up one of three areas that Bricktown and all OKC should pay close attention to: West End, Deep Ellum and in Fort Worth, Sundance Sq. All historic areas, once thriving. Well West end is dead, Deep Ellum is on the way to Dead and Sundance of all places is struggling, and it pains me to see that. All can be linked to other elements.

When west end had the mall and other retail shops open during the day, things were great! It was rollin' from day thru the night. Then, they lost Planet Hollywood, then the mall virtually shut down leaving only clubs and restraunts. The day time traffic dried up with the exiting of the retailers. Where do people go now? Victory Plaza and new developments along the hwy 75 corridore from Knox, Mockingbird and up to Park. Its new and trendy and full of shops with plenty of daytime traffic. Then throw in the games at AAC and its a success. Its what i hope C2S will be!
Deep ellum struggles because the night life just isn't enough to sustain the value. Sundance is hurting because Tandy/Radio shack moved to another location and likely will file bankruptcy or be bought out, taking a large part of daytime traffic away, virtually starving the mall. Fortunately, i think Sundance will pull through with the help of surrounding development like the Bank that was converted to condos after the tornado. All three have a common theme - regular foot traffic, not just at night, but during the day too. It is the lifeblood of retail development, and at this moment, in downtown, on a regular basis...is not enough to bring the big guns in. Empty storefronts are not a calling card for success.

That is why i think the mayor is on the right track with C2S!
Retail Developers - Hillwood, Harvard Co's and Cordish Cos, Developers who are patient, calculating will wait and see...not if, but WHEN they will move! Only, it will likely happen if C2S happens. ITS NOT BASHING MY HOMETOWN and not a detatched generalization, its an observation, and something i have personally witnessed...but, in the end, is still just an opinion.

PS: You aint kiddin' Rover! Not good at night. Stick around the museum, mckinney ave and Victory Plaza area. Its a little better!

Around the museum? The Arts District in DT Dallas is deader than dead. I appreciate the post and the opinions you share, BigD Misey, and I'll say you're spot on. During the school year I'm usually up in Calgary where we have over 400 downtown retailers including department stores that have been there since the founding of Calgary and never left. The most important thing is keeping downtown pivotal in the community's sense of pride and people will do right by it. Foot traffic in OKC is negligible but it's manageable and it's a start, it's something you can do things with. As for Victory/West End... don't you think the advent of Victory (which has been highly struggling on its own) will make it harder for the comeback of the West End?

Speaking of Victory Park, Steve Lackmeyer went down there and had a very negative impression. A lot of it is empty and it just feels too...blah. Very high-end, high-rent, brand new, flashy, and dead. This is what Core2Shore is destined for in many people's opinions, and what we want to avoid. It's not connected to downtown the way Power and Light is in KC, it's more disconnected the way Victory Park in Dallas is.

[Steve]

Victory is one of those places that only seems to be lively when there's a big event at the American Airlines center.

[progressiveboy]

Victory is one of those places that only seems to be lively when there's a big event at the American Airlines center.

Agree. Lots of Vacancies.

[ljbab728]

What do you mean Bricktown can't build housing? If the property owners in Bricktown can't build housing then who can? N. Oklahoma Ave alone has 6 building that could be converted to housing right now.

Kerry, I never said housing couldn't be built. I said Bricktown couldn't build housing. "Bricktown" isn't a person or an entity. It's a district of downtown OKC. It has no money. As I said, adding housing takes developers with money and financing to do that and it's in very short supply right now.

[metro]

We should have an OKC Talk meetup tomorrow at the Red Dirt Marketplace. I hope downtown will be packed with deadCENTER, Cocktails on the Skyline, goings on at the Civic Center, a home Redhawks game, and the grand opening of the Marketplace.

and the Mayor's Conference.

[Steve]

Kerry, I never said housing couldn't be built. I said Bricktown couldn't build housing. "Bricktown" isn't a person or an entity. It's a district of downtown OKC. It has no money. As I said, adding housing takes developers with money and financing to do that and it's in very short supply right now.

SANITY! REASON! LOGIC! FACTS! Oh my gosh, am I really reading this????
(OK, I'm a bit edgy this morning. Ignore me)

[Spartan]

So basically the only sane, logical, and fact-based analysis of Bricktown housing is that right now it is not possible and to simply not expect it or hope for it any time soon.

And people wonder why I'M so negative..