The Abortion Issue

[PennyQuilts]

The laws exist for everyone, not just for your ideology. The law as it stands has a bit of give and take for both sides which neither side is happy with. That's about the best that can and should be done.

This was more about fact than law. Laws change, facts don't. We argue about the facts of abortion but whatever the truth is, it won't change. I am of a mind that I don't know all of it but that means a tie goes to the fetus.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

Usually? What are the exceptions?

Did you not read my post? You agreed with me in the rest of your post but
didn't know it. I clearly stated that the baby receives oxygen via the mothers
circulatory system. Maybe you don't what the circulatory system is. It's
breathing but not from the lungs. Do you know what the umbilical cord
contains?

The exceptions would be if it dies within. Don't read into it or twist anything again.
The "baby" ISN'T breathing while within the womb.
And if you want to argue that it does then is is not the woman's breath who's supplying it?
It's her breath, then shouldn't she choose if she wants to end that particular breath?

[PennyQuilts]

As I understand it, the morning after pill does not abort anything as it takes a little while for the sperm to fertilize the egg, the egg to attach, and so forth. Really, it just prevents any eggs from attaching to the uterine lining and blocks the release of any eggs from the ovaries. Not abortion--birth control.

Not meant to be taken every time birth control, but a whoops, the condom broke kind of birth control.

Attaching to the uterine wall is not what creates an embryo. Fertilization does that. However, I am not sure about the lag in time on fertilization and until you said that, I didn't think about it in those terms. I should look that up to pin down the answer.

[Caboose]

I never said life begins at 24wks. so don't twist my words.
Nobody can determine when life begins & to say you can is false.
It has NEVER been proven for sure, which is why abortion exists.
I don't know when life begins & I'm not going to act like I do because it's just ignorant.
All I'm saying is that there's 24wks. because of the development in the womb.

Well, Bunty here you go... here is a woman who was pregnant and had an abortion and she concedes she does not know when life begins. So much for your logic.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

Well, Bunty here you go... here is a woman who was pregnant and had an abortion and she concedes she does not know when life begins. So much for your logic.

Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

[Caboose]

Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

There you have it Bunty, you are ignorant according to the very source you are citing as the expert.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

There you have it Bunty, you are ignorant according to the very source you are citing as the expert.

He's not ignorant because that's HIS opinions & thoughts on the subject.

[PennyQuilts]

The traditional time that people believed a child was alive (and human) was at "quickening," the time it could be felt which, in a first baby is generally in the fourth of fifth month. Earlier in subsequent pregnancies. I don't know of any religion - which hystorically governed most decisions on the matter - that thought birth was the time a child became human. It was not until we started getting into more modern times (last fifty years or less) that it was widespread for people to sometimes think in terms of anything but "if I can feel it, it must be alive." And even in the 70's this belief was pretty widespread. And no one thought in terms of it being anything but human once they thought it was alive. The notion of it being an "it" or a parasite (once it was deemed alive) is quite new.

[Caboose]

He's not ignorant because that's HIS opinions & thoughts on the subject.

Bunty: I know without a doubt that life begins when the baby takes it's first breath.

xoxotiffanynicole: Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

[Caboose]

Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

So how did you determine at what point an abortion becomes unacceptable if you can't determine at what point life begins?

[PennyQuilts]

Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

It would also be dishonest and I appreciate your honesty. For what it is worth, I am passionately pro life but I believe most women who abort do so because there has been a great deal of effort since the time we were girls to convince us that it is okay. To buck that sort of brainwashing when you are in crisis and time is of the essense is a lot to expect. I am sorry the whole thing happened for you. You sound like a nice person.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

Bunty: I know without a doubt that life begins when the baby takes it's first breath.

xoxotiffanynicole: Nobody knows when it begins, period.
I'm not going to say I do.
That would be ignorant.

I'm going to categorize my own opinoins on things as ignorant, but when it comes to other peoples' I'm not going to because I respect what that person believes in.
To me, it's ignorant.
To you, it may be ignorant.
To him, it's not.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

So how did you determine at what point an abortion becomes unacceptable if you can't determine at what point life begins?

Because it's a matter of opinion.
I can't determine when it begins, neither can you.
My opinion & beliefs tell me it begins at actual birth.
It may not be true down the road, but it's what I BELIEVE in as of now.

[Caboose]

I'm going to categorize my own opinoins on things as ignorant, but when it comes to other peoples' I'm not going to because I respect what that person believes in.
To me, it's ignorant.
To you, it may be ignorant.
To him, it's not.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

In YOUR opinion.

[mugofbeer]

Tiff, it will help if you understand that some people on here believe that fetuses (or is it Feti?) have little souls and if they haven't had a chance to "accept christ as their saviour" the little souls will go to hell. They also belive that god will punish them personally for not having saved the little buggers' souls. I know... it is sick and convoluted, but it is what drives some of them here. It's a strange, strange world we live in.

USG, there are people in the world who may think that way but they are few and far between. The overriding difference of opinion is that there are many, many millions of people who believe that life begins at conception and that if you abort, you are murdering a living human. To most of those people, its not even a religious issue - its moral because it is murder.

I also believe that life begins at conception but I can accept that up to the point of a few weeks old, abortion should be allowed. That is purely my opinion. What irks me is people who try to rationalize their pro-abortion stance by saying that a fetus is not a human until some arbitrary point in time - some place it earlier or later than others. Its not scientific and its not rational. Its a rationalization and a way to help themselves feel relief from potential guilt.

For those who are of the opinion that a fetus still eligible to be aborted is not a living human, I find it ironic that they are so outraged by the states' requirement to view an ultrasound before the abortion. If these folks believe the fetus is still a peanut, then it's a peanut and they should be fine viewing the ultrasound. Ultrasound cost is just another excuse.

IMO, if you are pro-choice then fine, be pro-choice but accept that abortion is the end of a human life and accept responsibility for what you are doing. The same goes for the father who may be supporting the abortion.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

USG, there are people in the world who may think that way but they are few and far between. The overriding difference of opinion is that there are many, many millions of people who believe that life begins at conception and that if you abort, you are murdering a living human. To most of those people, its not even a religious issue - its moral because it is murder.

I also believe that life begins at conception but I can accept that up to the point of a few weeks old, abortion should be allowed. That is purely my opinion. What irks me is people who try to rationalize their pro-abortion stance by saying that a fetus is not a human until some arbitrary point in time - some place it earlier or later than others. Its not scientific and its not rational. Its a rationalization and a way to help themselves feel relief from potential guilt.

For those who are of the opinion that a fetus still eligible to be aborted is not a living human, I find it ironic that they are so outraged by the states' requirement to view an ultrasound before the abortion. If these folks believe the fetus is still a peanut, then it's a peanut and they should be fine viewing the ultrasound. Ultrasound cost is just another excuse.

IMO, if you are pro-choice then fine, be pro-choice but accept that abortion is the end of a human life and accept responsibility for what you are doing. The same goes for the father who may be supporting the abortion.

Where have you found that it's scientifically proven that it's a human before actual birth? Because I've been researching this topic for years & have yet to find ANYTHING to be proven.

If it's murder then why in your opinion is it okay to have an abortion after a few weeks? It makes no sense what you're saying.

I had no problem viewing the ultrasound so not ALL of us are outraged by it. And why wouldn't the cost of it be a viable reason for not wanting it? Mine costed $150. Before I wouldn't have had to have it & I wouldn't have had to dish out an extra $150.

[Prunepicker]

It's her breath, then shouldn't she choose if she wants to end that particular
breath?

No. Murdering an innocent child should never be an option.

Also, I didn't read into anything.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

No. Murdering an innocent child should never be an option.

Also, I didn't read into anything.

I still don't see how you view it as a child, but okay.
You did read into it.

[PennyQuilts]

You aren't going to find anything that tells you that a fetus is human because it isn't even a scientific question. What makes a human? DNA tells us what species we are and a fetus' DNA says human. It sure isn't going to turn into a turnip. The argument is really not whether a fetus is human, by most (although they might call it a potential human). Instead, some people choose arbitrary characteristics of a human at a different stage of development such as ability to think or remember. The latest standard has been the ability to feel pain and that has caused all kinds of problems because it comes so early in development. Regardless, that is arbitrary because people in comas or unconscious or the like might be the same way and they don't cease to be human. Very few people, even those faced with a loved one who is a vegetable, are willing to believe that they are no longer a human. They may be "dead" but they don't think they cease to be a human being. They are just a dead human.

If someone wants to say humanity doesn't come until some sort of subjective thing happens (they are nice people or something like that) then some never become people and people in a coma (even temporarily) are no longer human.

What is it about birth and a first breath that would fundamentally change a being into a human? That sounds more religious than scientific.

[Prunepicker]

Ultrasound cost is just another excuse.

Ultrasound testing is free at most, if not all, pregnancy centers who believe in
saving the child's life.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

Ultrasound testing is free at most, if not all, pregnancy centers who believe in
saving the child's life.

I thought he was saying when you go to the clinic for an abortion though. Then it's not free & at the clinic when you go for the actual abortion is where the ultrasound is forced.

[PennyQuilts]

Back in the day when the courts said it was too much of a burden to have to go to the next state, abortions were running at about $250 - 500.00. My how things have changed - a $150.00 ultrasound is a hard hit for many people.

[bandnerd]

Attaching to the uterine wall is not what creates an embryo. Fertilization does that. However, I am not sure about the lag in time on fertilization and until you said that, I didn't think about it in those terms. I should look that up to pin down the answer.

That's why the morning after pill works in two ways--blocking eggs from release and preventing attachment by simply making the uterine wall an inhospitable place for the egg.

Eggs don't always attach to the uterine wall, even if fertilized. The body flushes it away just like it does the uterine lining every month.

[Prunepicker]

It's her breath, then shouldn't she choose if she wants to end that particular
breath?

Because it's murder.

I still don't see how you view it as a child, but okay.
You did read into it.

Because it isn't a tomato or a fire hydrant. I'd be all for women aborting
tomatoes and fire hydrants from their body, but it's neither. Nor was it nor
will it ever become anything else. It's a child that did nothing deserving of
death.