The Abortion Issue

[xoxotiffanynicole]

You can't conclude when it starts period. arguing about it is just a waste of time.

[Bunty]

Well, I know without a doubt that life starts when a baby takes it first breath of air. I don't mind, if someone wants to fine tune that definition downward some, though, such as by outlawing partial birth abortion.

[bandnerd]

I would like to know where I stated that I had any answers. If anything I have asked a lot of questions that were pushed aside or deemed unworthy of answers.

The only time I stated any opinion was how I couldn't justify putting a woman through a traumatic event that she didn't want in the first place.

The quip about parasites was just a joke.

If you want to know what I believe, I believe that abortions, though not partial-birth or late-term (for what should be obvious reasons), should continue to be legal, in this country, and every country. I believe that a woman should have the right to choose what her body goes through. I believe in second chances.

Caboose, you want to know why I believe these things, but first, let me ask you a question, and it isn't something I want you to take lightly: Are you a religious person, and if so, why?

[Midtowner]

Well, at least Caboose has denied saying that he believes life starts at conception.

Yes he did. And there's his subjective opinion.

He needs to be a little more careful when trying to pretend to be above the fray.

[Caboose]

Well, I know without a doubt that life starts when a baby takes it first breath of air. I don't mind, if someone wants to fine tune that definition downward some, though, such as by outlawing partial birth abortion.

Then why did you say it was not OK to abort a nine month old fetus?

And how did you determine that without a doubt life starts when a baby takes it's first breath of air?

[Caboose]

Yes he did. That's a subjective opinion.

Yes he did what?

[Caboose]

If you want to know what I believe, I believe that abortions, though not partial-birth or late-term (for what should be obvious reasons), should continue to be legal, in this country, and every country. I believe that a woman should have the right to choose what her body goes through. I believe in second chances.

Great. So why does a fetus not have the right to choose what his/her body goes through?

[Caboose]

Yes he did. And there's his subjective opinion.

He needs to be a little more careful when trying to pretend to be above the fray.

Are you claiming I stated that I think life begins at conception? If so, you need to be more careful about making claims you can't back up.

[bandnerd]

Great. So why does a fetus not have the right to choose what his/her body goes through?

Because they can't talk?

I wouldn't even begin to know how to answer this because it is such an out-there question.

[Caboose]

Because they can't talk?

Oh, you mean like a 1 day old infant? Or a like 45 year old stroke victim who can not speak but is otherwise enjoying life?

Try again. Why is a fetus denied the rights we both agree a woman should have?

[Prunepicker]

Well, I know without a doubt that life starts when a baby takes it first breath
of air.

And when does a baby take it's first breath of air? Be careful, because many,
many scientists say that it's before... take a guess.

[buckt]

Oh, you mean like a 1 day old infant? Or a like 45 year old stroke victim who can not speak but is otherwise enjoying life?

Try again. Why is a fetus denied the rights we both agree a woman should have?

Excellent response.....

[Bunty]

But you don't want to answer his question? Or do you believe pretty strongly with heart and soul that all abortion must be banned?

[Caboose]

Caboose, you want to know why I believe these things, but first, let me ask you a question, and it isn't something I want you to take lightly: Are you a religious person, and if so, why?

I would guess that I am probably the least religious person on this entire message board. Now that we have that irrelevant issue out of the way, lets continue.

Why do you believe in second chances for a pregnant woman while denying a fetus it's first chance?

[bandnerd]

I was curious if you were religious because how some people feel about religion--they can't always verbalize why they feel the way they do, they just "know,"--is how I feel about this issue.

In my heart, I just don't believe that a fetus is a person, yet. While it may be a potential life, it isn't a life until it is born. The law doesn't consider a fetus a person, either. The fetus is a part of the mother. Not a separate entity. Not to me.

I realize my answer isn't backed by a team of scientists. While Mid might be Mr. Logic around here, I am not that way.

As for you being the least religious person on the board, we can discuss that another time. You obviously don't know me very well.

[Caboose]

I was curious if you were religious because how some people feel about religion--they can't always verbalize why they feel the way they do, they just "know,"--is how I feel about this issue.

Except they don't just know, they just believe... and usually it's because that is what conforms to their world view.

In my heart, I just don't believe that a fetus is a person, yet.

See above.

While it may be a potential life, it isn't a life until it is born. The law doesn't consider a fetus a person, either. The fetus is a part of the mother. Not a separate entity. Not to me.

Yet you just said late term and partial birth abortions are not OK for obvious reasons. Explain.

I realize my answer isn't backed by a team of scientists.

As far as I can tell it isn't backed by anything.

While Mid might be Mr. Logic around here, I am not that way.

Mid suffers from "I am a lawyer" disease.

As for you being the least religious person on the board, we can discuss that another time. You obviously don't know me very well.

I would say this very thread contradicts what you are implying. You believe in things, I don't.

[bandnerd]

Wow, you're just loads of fun, aren't you?

Do you gain some sense of importance by trying to make others feel doubtful of their beliefs online?

Do you have the Amadeus song stuck in your head like I do, except with the words, "I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/oh-oh-oh I'm a fetus? No? Am I alone in that? Dang.

[Caboose]

Wow, you're just loads of fun, aren't you?

Do you gain some sense of importance by trying to make others feel doubtful of their beliefs online?

Do you have the Amadeus song stuck in your head like I do, except with the words, "I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/I'm a fetus I'm a fetus/oh-oh-oh I'm a fetus? No? Am I alone in that? Dang.

Right. It is a matter of belief to you. Got it. Advocating the mass slaughter of countless innocent humans works for you because you "believe in your heart" that they aren't people. Kind of like how one might fly an airplane into a building because he believes in his heart that God wants him to. Or how one might advocate slavery because they believe in their heart that the slaves aren't fully human.


I am sorry you didn't think this out well enough before you decided to jump in this discussion with the answer you are just so sure is correct.

If it is any consolation, it is not so much your conclusion that I object to... it is how you came to it. Same goes for Bunty.

Think of it as like a big algebra equation. If your answer is 42 that is fine, show us a reasonable logical pattern of thought on how you got to 42. Your faith isn't going to cut it.

[PennyQuilts]

I have found from working with some people who've had abortions and just did it because they thought it was no big deal or not involving a human/fetus get extremely distressed with confronted with an opposing view. One of the reasons I believe in actual full disclosure beforehand (and that kids are the last people to be able to make an intelligent decision on the subject), is the level of emotional anguish many women suffer in second guessing an earlier decision.

I have never deliberately passionately discussed the subject in the presence of a woman who I knew to have had an abortion but once, a woman brought up the subject and I took the pro life side. This was a friend I'd known a long time and socialized with, frequently. Her husband later was FURIOUS with me because his wife had had an abortion years before and the conversation distressed her, horribly. She didn't expect me to raise an eyebrow because she had no idea that anyone close to her felt that way about abortion - she'd come from NY and been surrounded by pro choice people her whole life. Until our discussion, she assumed it was a closed question and, in fact, it wasn't long after Roe v. Wade and she still was of the notion that the baby wasn't even alive until it was nearly five months along.

The wife, btw, never let on that she'd had an abortion. Somehow, her emotional pain became my fault in her husband's eyes because I disagreed with her decision (in the abstract).

I have never understood how someone standing up for life should be the one to bear the blame for the emotional pain of someone who didn't respect life at one point and now just doesn't want to think about it. If you are to believe the pro choicers, no woman has an abortion without great thought and study. This is bedrock pro choice religion. I think that is hogwash. The women I've known who have had abortions frequently didn't have a clue what it entailed.

The pro choicers I've seen who defend a friend or loved one seem to just think that if the woman doesn't think about it, she won't suffer. But to want someone else to not speak out about their own belief system due to risking offending someone who made that sort of choice, is asking a lot.

I'm not saying I think that people who are pro choice and get upset at the discussion ever had an abortion - certainly not - but when I see someone get really upset, I tend to close the subject. Chances are, if they did have an abortion in the past but find themselves in the same situation, they won't get another abortion and I am not in the business of deliberately trying to cause pain. I think anyone walking around with that sort of thing on their heart has enough to deal with.

[bandnerd]

I'm not saying I think that people who are pro choice and get upset at the discussion ever had an abortion - certainly not - but when I see someone get really upset, I tend to close the subject. Chances are, if they did have an abortion in the past but find themselves in the same situation, they won't get another abortion and I am not in the business of deliberately trying to cause pain. I think anyone walking around with that sort of thing on their heart has enough to deal with.

I'm not sure if I know anyone who has ever had an abortion...if they have, they certainly don't talk about it. Pro-life or pro-choice, it is a heavy decision and one that, either way, it seems as if it would stick with a woman for the rest of her life.

I'm not sure if I could go through with it. But, I'm not in the business of telling other women that they can't, either.

[PennyQuilts]

Being on the back side of having had one must really impact what someone feels/thinks about it. It has to be rough anyway you look at it.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

Being on the back side of having had one must really impact what someone feels/thinks about it. It has to be rough anyway you look at it.

It does impact strongly how someone feels about it.
I HAVE had one & I'm not one to want to listen to someone who's never been in the situation of being pregnant. I always said I would never have one, but then I got knocked up, & my whole mind set changed. You never truely know what you will do until you're faced with a decision so strongly as this one.

[PennyQuilts]

It does impact strongly how someone feels about it.
I HAVE had one & I'm not one to want to listen to someone who's never been in the situation of being pregnant. I always said I would never have one, but then I got knocked up, & my whole mind set changed. You never truely know what you will do until you're faced with a decision so strongly as this one.

When I got pregnant, as a teen, my family pressured me to abort and threw me out when I refused. I guess we look at it differently because I never once considered myself "knocked up." It was certainly terrifying, I'll grant you that.

[xoxotiffanynicole]

When I got pregnant, as a teen, my family pressured me to abort and threw me out when I refused. I guess we look at it differently because I never once considered myself "knocked up." It was certainly terrifying, I'll grant you that.

Knocked up is just what I refer to being pregnant as, nothing more nothing less. I was sort of in the same situation as you, although I had two alternatives. 1.) Get married & go away & have it. or 2.) Get an abortion & never tell anyone about it. Raising a child isn't an easy thing to do when you're a child yourself.

[PennyQuilts]

Raising a child isn't an easy thing to do when you're a child yourself.

It sure isn't. Although, in fairness, childrearing isn't easy for anyone, particularly if you have a difficult child. Being very young surely makes it much more difficult.