Rheas (Rays) on N. May: THUG Magnet

[Midtowner]

Mike, visit your local homeowners' associations. Have them all go in on a lawyer and sue the landlord and club owners for nuisance.

Some fun cases to read:

1) This one actually has a rather hilarious (and short) fact pattern. It's from 1955 and you'll know it real quick. It's not really on point because it's a criminal case and as you've said, you've had no luck getting the OCPD to actually enforce the law.

Gibson v. State:

1 The defendants, Ketter Gordon and Jack Pittman, were jointly charged in the County Court of Seminole County with operating and maintaining a public nuisance, were tried, found guilty and sentenced to serve 90 days in jail and pay a fine of $250 and have appealed.

¶2 The only issue presented by the appeal is whether the evidence was sufficient to sustain the conviction.

¶3 The proof of the State showed that the defendants operated a barbecue stand and dance hall in the negro community known as Nobletown near Wewoka. Several officers testified to having visited the place of business of defendants at various times and having observed mixed crowds of colored and white people there drinking and carousing. Many arrests had been made at or near defendants' place of business for drunkenness, fighting, assault with a dangerous weapon and attempted rape. Many other witnesses testified to having gone to the premises of the accused and there having purchased intoxicating liquor from one or the other of the defendants. Some of them testified to buying whiskey in Seven Up bottles for $1.00 a bottle and others bought "Choctaw" beer. Fights in which knives were used were not uncommon and on one occasion, according to a witness, the defendant Gordon hit a teenage boy so hard with a pistol that it almost severed his ear. Many white teenagers from Wewoka would attend the dances where the music was provided generally by a jukebox.

¶4 The proof of the sale and open drinking of intoxicating liquor and a general course of disorderly conduct was wholly sufficient for the jury to determine that the two defendants were operating and maintaining a public nuisance in accordance with the definition of our statute, 50 O.S. 1951 § 2 [50-2]. King v. State, 71 Okl.Cr. 158, 109 P.2d 836; Hilbert v. State, 44 Okl.Cr. 89, 279 P. 910. Judgment and sentence of the County Court of Seminole County is affirmed.

2) MACKEY v. STATE EX REL. HARRIS was a case where the defendant was operating a place called the Red Dog Saloone back in the late 60s/early 70s in OKC. The complaints were much the same as what Mike is complaining about. Through the courts, eventually, the plaintiffs acquired an order permanently closing the business, requiring the sheriff to padlock the door. The Supreme Court of Oklahoma, finding that the trial court found that there was indeed a public nuisance, affirmed.

OSCN Found Document:MACKEY v. STATE EX REL. HARRIS

In short, if the renters don't meet your demands and the noise issue really is bad, then you do have more than adequate remedies through the courts.

[bradzilla]

Some fun cases to read:

1) This one actually has a rather hilarious (and short) fact pattern. It's from 1955 and you'll know it real quick.

Good idea, Midtowner is obviously a good source for all of your legal advice now I see why you two get along so well.

On a serious note another idea is to search around the houston area for similar cases, after katrina they had a mass influx of people from NOLA and had much of the same problems that your describing.

[Midtowner]

Oklahoma law is Oklahoma law, Texas law is Texas law. Yeah, I did disclaim the fact that the first case wasn't even really on point. I just thought the fact pattern was fun. Good lord.. gotta watch out for those "mixed crowds of colored and white people there drinking and carousing." I always enjoy reading cases where it's so obvious that what the Judges, and I'm guessing everyone else, back then knew and valued was so different than today. I checked the location of Nobletown on Google Maps. It's not even really a 'town.' Just more of a crossroads NW of Wewoka.

The Red Dog Saloone case gives a more full description about what the landowners' remedies would be. If Mike isn't exaggerating, I don't think he's going to have a hard time proving a public nuisance in court and getting something done. Now -- I'm not saying that a court is just going to go out and close Rheas. But they might issue an injunction to the landowner/club owner to tell them not to allow this situation in their parking lot to keep happening. After that we can start to talk about padlocking the place.

Folks certainly have the right to live their life and lifestyle [if you can call it that] however they want. They don't have the right to substantially interfere with other folks' enjoyment of their property though.

It's that whole concept of your right to swing your fist ends at my nose theory.

[bradzilla]

Folks certainly have the right to live their life and lifestyle [if you can call it that] however they want.

Why so judgemental of another culture?

Have you really taken a step back and looked at popular white culture and whats happening all over america right now?

-would rather hire someone to clean their own house, raise their children, yard work, and take care of their parents then do it themselves. then talk about it like its some sort of great status symbol that they have someone do that for them.
-Buying cars they cant afford (then losing)
-buying huge house they cant afford (then losing)
-plastic surgery obsessed
-maxed out credit limits to try and sustain some of what they consider lifestyle
-Celebrity obsessed
-highest rate of depression and suicide of any race
-majority of people are on some sort of medicine for anxiety or depression
-so obsessed with appearing weathly that they bankrupt their entire future

is that what culture is and how is it different than this ?

-These black guys have their own culture to where dressing up to the nines
-the bling
-acting like a mafia boss
-I have seen them chauffeured up to the door and walk to the club doors with an entourage, I kid you not.
-but pull up in a Lexus with tinted windows

-it's truly a cultural problem that can't be shrugged off lightly.

Clothes and brand obsessed, buying stuff they cant afford, acting like the money ( which is actually debt) means that they have higher status, car they cant afford.

Doesnt sound that much different to me.

[PennyQuilts]

Why so judgemental of another culture?

Have you really taken a step back and looked at popular white culture and whats happening all over america right now?

-would rather hire someone to clean their own house, raise their children, yard work, and take care of their parents then do it themselves. then talk about it like its some sort of great status symbol that they have someone do that for them.
-Buying cars they cant afford (then losing)
-buying huge house they cant afford (then losing)
-plastic surgery obsessed
-maxed out credit limits to try and sustain some of what they consider lifestyle
-Celebrity obsessed
-highest rate of depression and suicide of any race
-majority of people are on some sort of medicine for anxiety or depression
-so obsessed with appearing weathly that they bankrupt their entire future

is that what culture is ?

That is a strawman. It has NOTHING to do with gangsta culture. It is just saying that other "cultures" have problems. Granted. But gangsta culture is in a class by itself for the distruction of a entire group - and it is spreading beyond the black community to everyone else.

I defy you to find one constructive aspect of Gangsta culture. One. Name one consistently positive attribute of gangsta culture that constributes to the stability of the family, the community and the country. One. Name ONE positive characteristic that would justify the rest of our society supporting the lifestyle and value system.

It glorifies crime, demeans women, denigrates education, advances drug abuse, undermines the care children should be entitled to, encourages violence, and does nothing to promote the dignity that comes with working and supporting your family and other responsibilties. Moreover, nothing in the gangsta lifestyle encourages respect by individuals of either their neighbors or their neighborhoods. And finally, listen to gangsta rap lyrics - it is the most bigoted crap - and I mean towards other minorities, not just "the man." Some "cultures" deserve to fail and this is one of them.

Maybe you think this is about racism. I don't. When I hear/read/become aware of another stupid-ass shooting, stabbing, drive-by, petty crime, etc., etc. you know what I am thinking? I'm thinking about the older black grandparents trapped in that environment where their neighborhoods have been devalued by the gangstas to the point where they can't sell out and escape to a decent neighborhood. I think of innocent black kids forced to go to violent schools, through violent neighborhoods because gangsta thugs who don't concept of responsiblities toward their communites don't give a crap about the kids or their future. I think about a young black girl whose future is thrown away because no sooner does she hit puberty that the young men in the neighborhood decide she would make a good broodmare - and she doesn't have a daddy or a granddad - or a strong male neighbor - willing to step up and keep those bad boys in line - resulting in another generation thrown away. Gangsta lifestyle is not harmless and the worst victims are the innocents who can't escape to Edmond. It is a blight on the black community and as far as I am concerned, we should have zero tolerance. And it isn't about being black - that type of behavior is distructive, no matter your race. It is killing African Americans and until you've gone into the hood (I have) you have no idea how that "culture" is destroying families and their futures.

Calling it a legitimate culture to advance some sort of highbrow notion of "tolerance" is morally bankrupt when you open your eyes and see the victims, be they the neighbors impacted by their ridiculous, disrespectful behavior, or the innocents left back in the hood waiting to be chewed up and spit out by the thugs in question. It is bad enough what goes on in their neighborhoods - there is little you can do from the outside when that sort of thing has taken over and corrupted the core. But to suggest that people should abandon their nighborhoods to allow these thugs to bring that BS to others in the interest of "entertainment," suggests a complete lack of understanding of what makes a community thrive. NOTHING good comes from allowing that sort of behavior to spread - it is a cancer.

[Midtowner]

Why so judgemental of another culture?

Have you really taken a step back and looked at popular white culture and whats happening all over america right now?

-would rather hire someone to clean their own house, raise their children, yard work, and take care of their parents then do it themselves. then talk about it like its some sort of great status symbol that they have someone do that for them.
-Buying cars they cant afford (then losing)
-buying huge house they cant afford (then losing)
-plastic surgery obsessed
-maxed out credit limits to try and sustain some of what they consider lifestyle
-Celebrity obsessed
-highest rate of depression and suicide of any race
-majority of people are on some sort of medicine for anxiety or depression
-so obsessed with appearing weathly that they bankrupt their entire future

is that what culture is and how is it different than this ?

Who cares? This thread is about a public nuisance, not American culture. It's as if you want to pass off the stereotype that black folks are loud and obnoxious as fact and then excuse it. If your premise is that black folks are loud and obnoxious, that in itself is inexcusably ignorant. If you want to continue and use this cultural excuse to justify the extreme interference with landowners who simply want to enjoy their property, then I don't think you're going to find many takers.

I don't think anyone here really gives two craps about anyone else's culture so long as their living within that culture doesn't interfere with my life, liberty, property, etc.

I think we've had similar threads on this forum regarding potential public nuisances created by loud church bells, minarets blasting the daily prayer, etc. If you think a particular culture is being singled out, I'm going to posit that you're dead wrong.

Folks just want to enjoy relative peace and tranquility at 2 o'clock in the morning.

[PennyQuilts]

And Mid is right - while I went off on gangsta culture, that was in response to your attempts to legitmize it. It is really about being a nuisance in the middle of the night for any reason. No one should have to put up with that, regardless of the motivation of the ones causing the problem. And I think it is also dead on to note that you seem to have pigeonholed this sort of behavior as a "black" problem or somehow defining black people. Not all black people are like that and not all people behaving like that are black.

[bradzilla]

-class by itself for the distruction of a entire group - and it is spreading beyond the black community to everyone else.

NOTHING good comes from allowing that sort of behavior to spread - it is a cancer.

Have you seen what has gone on in the US in the last two years due to white american culture?

How is that not disruptive, and how has this black culture effected your life in anyway?

I can say with out hesitation that the 'thug culture' hasnt had any effect on my home price, my 401k, my TSP account, skyrocketing layoffs, or families losing their homes.

[bradzilla]

It's as if you want to pass off the stereotype that black folks are loud and obnoxious as fact and then excuse it. If your premise is that black folks are loud and obnoxious, that in itself is inexcusably ignorant.

Please qoute anywhere where i said that.....

You're really searching and its sad.

[PennyQuilts]

Have you seen what has gone on in the US in the last two years due to white american culture?

How is that not disruptive, and how has this black culture effected your life in anyway?


I can say with out hesitation that the 'thug culture' hasnt had any effect on my home price, my 401k, my TSP account, or the skyrocketing layoffs.

Yeah, the gangsta culture pretty much paid my bills for the past few years, so I guess you can say it affected my life. I spent more time in the hood with its crappy neighbors, shootings, trash in the streets, no window panes despite the snow and ice (sheets are frequently tacked up to keep out the northwind), carpet destroyed by the pitbulls left locked in the house, no dads, dads in prison, drug abuse, kids spitting out babies by age 14, drop outs, grandparents trapped in their homes, no one working, etc. I'd have to schedule home visits in the afternoon because no one was up before that - including up to get the kids off to school.

Keep talking, Brad. As long as it doesn't affect you, you are perfectly happy to look the other way, even if it means you have to move to Edmond. Sadly, these grandparents and kids don't have that option. Gangsta culture is horrible. And yes, I have seen what has happened in white culture - I suspect far more than you have since I work in the business.

The gangsta values glorify violence and self centeredness. Yes, it is spreading. If I had to put my finger on the difference between trailer trash mentality and gangsta mentality is that trailer trash tend to be stupid, uneducated people who have washed out of competitive society. They have low standards and don't "reject" mainstream culture so much as they individually can't compete, either from laziness, ignorance, stupidity or foolish lifestyle choices. But you also see a lot of disabled or elderly in the trailerpark simply because they can't afford to live anywhere else. It is less a moral failing than just circumstances out of their control. In the bible, they say the poor will be among us, always. These tend to be the poor that every society has.

In contrast, gangsta culture actively glorifies violence, crime, self indulgence, and doesn't even make a passing attempt to uphold protecting children or putting them first. It is not the result of stupidity or disability. It is a set of fundamental values that destroys whatever it touches.

Oh, and to equate this with black vs. white culture, as you have done in your post, is racist and insulting. Most black people don't embrace this culture.

[ddavidson8]

Why is everyone taking Brad's bait? He's just a troll.

[Midtowner]

Please qoute anywhere where i said that.....

You're really searching and its sad.

Context is key.

[MikeOKC]

It's amazing that Brad fails to see the obvious. Or, as mentioned above, he's just a troll. I'm not even going to bother correcting his cut 'n paste job on me, taking out a few words and leaving out the context. Stringing things together to make it look different than it is.

It was a bit back upthread, but Brad bragged on his education. I have learned that anytime someone defaults to their education (as proof their opinion somehow carries more weight), on internet forums it almost always means one thing: They don't have what they claim.

It's interesting how Brad went from a guy angry that the police were even bothering with Ray's to (within 24 hours) being a suburban homeowner who had to flee similar things and felt I should do the same. I don't buy it for a minute. I suggested we take these back & forth things to PM. I tried and he ignored me.

It all probably means TROLL.

I appreciate all the ideas on dealing with this situation from many of you who have offered constructive thoughts. It is very much appreciated.

[ddavidson8]

Me Brad

[bradzilla]

-It's amazing that Brad fails to see the obvious. Or, as mentioned above, he's just a troll.

-It's interesting how Brad went from a guy angry that the police were even bothering with Ray's to (within 24 hours) being a suburban homeowner who had to flee similar things and felt I should do the same. I don't buy it for a minute. I suggested we take these back & forth things to PM. I tried and he ignored me.

I enjoy quoting myself since your reading and comprehension skills are lagging behind.

Personal attacks on me is all fine and good but you arent actually addressing the problem, what exactly has any of the people at the club done to you or your property?

Its a waste of time to respond and its isnt going to go anywhere, this thread is about your neighborhood and the club. Not me.

[ray99]

there goes the neighborhood. All you folks have just verified in many different ways that this "ghetto" group is a cancer on society, and probably always will be. They probabably don't have a job, and who would hire them? There are portions of humanity that just aren't capable of being civilized. To some, being a so called thug, is the only life they will ever know. My guess is that they were all living in granny's house, because the parents moved to E. St. Louis.

[kevinpate]

the odd thing all, all the rather interesting back and forth notwithstanding, is that the real issue is not thug activity, it's the noise and the activity, without regard to who is doing it.

If folks are fighting, messing with private property, exceeding reasonable noise levels at 2-3 am, it really doesn't make a tinker's damn whether the source is Rhea's, or the patrons are black.

The same intrusion could exist if the place was called 'NECKS, the blaring music was George or Toby, the skin tone was pasty white, and the bling were spurs on pointy toed chitkickers.

For that matter, call it PREPS, w/ everyone in blue blazer and khakis and whatever passes for preppie shoes, and the music is blaring top 40 claptrap and the bling is all in Greek letters.

The real issue is what's happening - excessive noise, loud fighting, private property being messed with in the surrounding neighborhood.

Focus on the what, and 90% of the posts are meaningless, because those are focusing on the who. Someone urinates on my porch or messes with my car, I could not care less what he wears, listens to, drives or drinks elsewhere. I don't want his drunken arse messing with my peeps, my stuff or momma's flowers.

Simple really.

[bradzilla]

is that the real issue is not thug activity, it's the noise and the activity, without regard to who is doing it.

Focus on the what, and 90% of the posts are meaningless, because those are focusing on the who.

Amen.

-how is it a clash, they are oklahoma city residents hanging out in oklahoma city? What does their race or lifestyle have to do with anything?

[PennyQuilts]

Lifestyle, if that means a mob of folks are engaging in this sort of antisocial behavior on a consistent basis, has quite a lot to do with the situation. It suggests that this is not atypical behavior for this particular group and that their behavior is not going to change absent some sort of external intervention.

[MikeOKC]

Originally Posted by kevinpate
is that the real issue is not thug activity, it's the noise and the activity, without regard to who is doing it.

Originally Posted by bradzilla in response to kevinpate:

Amen.

Brad continues his reinvention. What happened to the Bradzilla who said it was our choice to live in the city and it was this kind of thing that made urban life "exciting"? The Bradzilla who said the cops should lay off of Rhea's and said they were wasting taxpayer money?

[mugofbeer]

Once again, Gangsta lifestyle isn't illegal and black people visiting a business in a white neighborhood isnt illegal either. No matter how much you wish it were true.

No its not, I never said it was and I never mentioned one single word about anyone being black, white, purple or yellow. You're the one who introduced race so lets not be hypocritical. Gee, I even know there are white people who embrace that lifestyle - yes, that's what I said before, LIFESTYLE that glorifies prison life, its a lifestyle that glorifies gangs, its a lifestyle that glorifies the submission and mistreatment of women, its a lifestyle that glorifies crime and murder. The club is on the west side of May Avenue - not IN a white neighborhood.

-Kinda borderline there, its obviously a good sized club with a lot of patrons. When was the last time that you saw any club parking lot as a ghost town 15 minutes after it closes, cops or no cops?

Happens all the time when the club has been deemed a nuisance and the police are there to move it on or if the club owner had sufficient security on hand to move it on. The police in Denver routinely move crowds on from the club in Denver where Darrant Williams was prior to being shot because it has a history of violence. My former policeman neighbor told me of a nightclub in a very nice part of Denver that draws a non-gang-related crowd but that several violent incidents took place in the parking lot after closing so the police routinely cleared the lot after closing time.

-Mentioned it earlier I am a home owner, in a neighborhood, and do have a family. They haven't received your stamp as being 'real', but im not going to hold my breath since you are also under the mindset that the 'thugs' dont have the same civil rights that you do since you dont approve of their lifestyle.

My apologies, I misunderstood one post you made where you said you lived in an apartment in OKC and moved to Edmond - I assumed to an apartment. The point is still the same, however. You moved to Edmond to run from aspects of what this thread is about. You were able to move and you chose to run from it rather than fight it by complaining to the managment, filing noise complaints, etc. Perhaps you ran from it because you were simply renting and it wasn't worth it. If you OWN your home, its worth it and no one has a right to violate your peace and quiet or violate your property in the middle of the night.

If Rheas moved 300 feet from the house you are in now and you were chronically being awoken at 2-3AM by loud, thumping bass speakers, looked out your window and saw people walking near your front door at that time of night, heard people cursing at each other, etc., you wouldn't be singing the same tune AT ALL. You might try to tell us on here you would, but you know you wouldn't.

Amplify what I said above by 10X if you have a wife and children in your house.

Whether you feel these people have civil rights to be a nuisance, even a non-lawyer can figure this one out. You are incorrect. In a previous post I stated that all that is necessary is to enforce loitering laws and now I'll throw in noise laws and the problem is mostly solved.

-Its comparable to children bickering because one child rode a bike in front of the other child's house.

This is your most inane comment yet. People from the club walking in your front yard at 2AM up near your front door isn't even close to being comperable.

[ddavidson8]

So any news on this situation?

[Martin]

^^^
check this thread out.

apparently, rhea's is closed and another club is taking its place. -M