The Abortion Issue

[Caboose]

Because the woman gave life to that fetus and while within her has the right to decide whether to continue it. It's really no one else's business except for the father's. It's a shame a number of them are of no help in deciding what is best to do. Of course, at least much, perhaps most of the time the baby was wanted and choice never entered into it.

Well that didnt answer the question at all.

How did you determine whether or not a fetus is a full human and has the right to life?

[Edmond_Outsider]

I also agree that there are some very, very limited legitimate reasons for abortion, but the old worn-out "save them from a life worse than death" and "avoid the dangerous back-alley abortions" are passe'.

Jimbo, I think you and I have found some common ground recently and that's cool. Please take this rebuttal with the respect I intend.

One huge problem I have with the anti-choice zealots is many advocate outlawing all procedures which could be used to terminate a pregnancy.

A D&C, for example, is the only way to prevent sepsis and other complications when a woman miscarries. My wife and I had to make the decision to do this many years ago vs. waiting until the immune system rejects the tissue and expels it. That is, in essence, a massive infection rife with all sorts of deadly probabilities.

Similarly, a complete ban on late term terminations would be a virtual death sentence to the mother of a third trimester stillbirth. In addition, the miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy is horribly traumatic and heartbreaking. My wife is a rock and our miscarriage during the first trimester haunted her for years. After 8 or 9 months, you might have to sedate me for a few years to and I'm not the one who would be carrying it.

I think most rational folks would agree that both these scenarios are acceptable.

However, first to about half way into the second trimester seem like no-body's business but the woman carrying the fetus. I've never made this decision and would never want to. However, I've been through it with many friends over the years and it remains a decision I respect.

That's my view and if God condemns it, God also forgives.

My primary point of contention with your post is:

the old worn-out "save them from a life worse than death" and "avoid the dangerous back-alley abortions" are passe'.

Abortion is as old as pregnancy. This is a sad but true fact of human existence. Women have always and will always do what they must.

One of my longest problems with the anti-choice argument is it is inherently discriminatory against the poor. Rich folks will always have save options. Doctors will go back to the pre-Roe practice of providing those who will pay a high price, safe procedures.

The poor, on the other hand, will not have that option and will die horrible and painful deaths.

That seems like justice to some, but not to me.

[PennyQuilts]

A D & C is farily standard following miscarriages, abortions or births that do not appear to have successfully resulted in expulsion of the afterbirth. In early abortions, they generally just scrape away the baby along with the endometrial lining. It is just a way to remove material that could cause septus and is incidental to an abortion and quite common for that and other procedures.

A third semester stillborn is certainly not a death sentence. I've known a number of people who have experienced that. My own grandmother had two late term stillbirths (full term pregnancies) and lived to tell the tale - and that was more than seventy years ago. My great grandmother had the same thing - 90 years ago. She lived until she was 91.

A late term abortion is a whole different question from a situation involving a stillbirth. If the baby dies, in utero, you aren't talking about an abortion, at all. Most doctors want the mother to expel the dead fetus, naturally, but will go in and remove it if that doesn't happen fairly promptly. But, again, that has nothing to do with abortion.

[Bunty]

Well that didnt answer the question at all.

How did you determine whether or not a fetus is a full human and has the right to life?

Once again, it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that. Instead, it's the pregnant woman's. And it's not like a pregnant woman owns a human being like Southerners used to own slaves, because slaves were already born. Why, Caboose, do you absolutely refuse to grasp that? And if you feel so strongly and passionately that a woman's unwanted pregnancy is, indeed, your business, what are you going to do about it? Go to the waiting room of an abortion clinic and with tears running down your cheeks, beg each and every woman not to go through with their abortions??

[Caboose]

lol, It's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that. Instead, it's the pregnant woman's. Why do you so strongly and passionately refuse that as an answer??

Oh ok, so it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide if a two month old infant is a life. Instead it is the birth mother's. Do you strongly and passionately refuse that?

[Prunepicker]

Why should anyone be put to death without a trial by jury and all of the
appeals necessary to come to the conclusion that they deserve to be put to
death?

[Bunty]

Why must people like Prunepicker so strongly and passionately believe that all fetuses must be totally regarded as complete human beings with every right imaginable?

[Bunty]

Oh ok, so it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide if a two month old infant is a life. Instead it is the birth mother's. Do you strongly and passionately refuse that?

Who really cares with heart and soul other than the pregnant woman?

[Caboose]

Who really cares with heart and soul other than the pregnant woman?

So are you going to answer the question or not? What criteria did you use to determine whether or not a fetus is a life?

[RealJimbo]

Once again, it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that. Instead, it's the pregnant woman's. And it's not like a pregnant woman owns a human being like Southerners used to own slaves, because slaves were already born. Why, Caboose, do you absolutely refuse to grasp that? And if you feel so strongly and passionately that a woman's unwanted pregnancy is, indeed, your business, what are you going to do about it? Go to the waiting room of an abortion clinic and with tears running down your cheeks, beg each and every woman not to go through with their abortions??

Bunty, how can you assert so strongly and passionately that "it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that"? How did you come to this conclusion? It is so very common that there is a difference of opinion on these threads, but you are projecting YOUR opinion here, stating it as though it were established fact, WHICH IT IS NOT!

In my opinion, the point of contention will always be that, will never be resolved with people like you who push their opinion as fact. I personally don't understand how anyone can see it the way you do. It comes down to a matter of a split second, I guess. Anytime before the "fetus", as you call the unborn infant, is actually born, it is up to the mother (possibly the father too) to decide whether he/she (it) lives or dies. This is the way I see it. The unborn child, in my mind, is a human being from the time it is conceived and should at least have the human rights of the very least in our society. If you saw a 2-year-old child being threatened by an animal or another person, what would you do? What if it was 1 year old? 2 months? 2 days? 2 hours? What if it was in the process of being born? Almost to be born? 2 months before birth? In this continuum there is no specific point in time where there is a reason to say that the child has stopped being a "fetus" and is now a human being.

Now go. I'm open to debate. Take your best shot.

[Bunty]

So are you going to answer the question or not? What criteria did you use to determine whether or not a fetus is a life?

Of course, I'm not going to answer that question when a pregnant woman can do it much better from her point of view.

[Bunty]

Bunty, how can you assert so strongly and passionately that "it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that"? How did you come to this conclusion? It is so very common that there is a difference of opinion on these threads, but you are projecting YOUR opinion here, stating it as though it were established fact, WHICH IT IS NOT!

In my opinion, the point of contention will always be that, will never be resolved with people like you who push their opinion as fact. I personally don't understand how anyone can see it the way you do. It comes down to a matter of a split second, I guess. Anytime before the "fetus", as you call the unborn infant, is actually born, it is up to the mother (possibly the father too) to decide whether he/she (it) lives or dies. This is the way I see it. The unborn child, in my mind, is a human being from the time it is conceived and should at least have the human rights of the very least in our society. If you saw a 2-year-old child being threatened by an animal or another person, what would you do? What if it was 1 year old? 2 months? 2 days? 2 hours? What if it was in the process of being born? Almost to be born? 2 months before birth? In this continuum there is no specific point in time where there is a reason to say that the child has stopped being a "fetus" and is now a human being.

Now go. I'm open to debate. Take your best shot.

Well, if you care so dearly with your heart and soul over the helplessness of a fetus as an actual complete human being, and so want to make it your business, what are you going to do about it? Like what I asked of Caboose. Are you going into the waiting room of an abortion clinic and with tears streaming down your cheeks, beg each and every woman to change their minds and not do away with their unborn? How can you be so strongly against abortion, yet not think of doing such a thing? Ha, talk about not understanding how I feel about abortion.

[Caboose]

Of course, I'm not going to answer that question when a pregnant woman can do it much better from her point of view.

So again, to sum it up.. you don't know.

[Bunty]

So again, to sum it up.. you don't know.

Why should it so strongly matter since I can't get pregnant? Besides, I value the opinion of a woman on abortion more so than a man's. Definately ladies first in that field of view.

[Caboose]

Once again, it's not my business, your business, or the government's business to decide that. Instead, it's the pregnant woman's. And it's not like a pregnant woman owns a human being like Southerners used to own slaves, because slaves were already born. Why, Caboose, do you absolutely refuse to grasp that? And if you feel so strongly and passionately that a woman's unwanted pregnancy is, indeed, your business, what are you going to do about it? Go to the waiting room of an abortion clinic and with tears running down your cheeks, beg each and every woman not to go through with their abortions??

Where did I say I was against abortion? What does your sentence about slavery have to do with this? It didn't even make sense.

Whose business is it to decide whether or not a 2 week old infant baby is a full person with the right to life?
What logic makes it different for an unborn fetus?

[Caboose]

Why should it so strongly matter since I can't get pregnant? Besides, I value the opinion of a woman on abortion more so than an man. Definately ladies first in that field of view.

Right, so then it also shouldnt matter to you what a woman does with her 3 year old toddler. If she decides to torture him with a curling iron, throw a cinder block on his head, then feed him to the dogs... what say do you have in it? After all, you are not capable of getting pregnant and giving birth to that child so you (nor the government local or federal..nor society in a general sense) have any understanding of the situation.

[RealJimbo]

Well, if you care so dearly with your heart and soul over the helplessness of a fetus as an actual complete human being, and so want to make it your business, what are you going to do about it? Like what I asked of Caboose. Are you going into the waiting room of an abortion clinic and with tears streaming down your cheeks, beg each and every woman to change their minds and not do away with their unborn? How can you be so strongly against abortion, yet not think of doing such a thing? Ha, talk about not understanding how I feel about abortion.

"tears streaming down your cheeks" is a little dramatic, isn't it? You can't answer my questions, so you pose your own. Can you not answer what I've asked? You keep approaching this as though you have made a decision that a "fetus" is only relevant to a pregnant woman. So is a child only relevant to its parents? Where exactly do you stand on this? I think it is obvious but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

And for the record, I do care very deeply about this issue and have on many occasions spoken to women who were on the brink of making a decision. Some I have persuaded, some I have not. But I have NEVER one time felt it was a decision that should be awarded to anyone unless the mother's life was at risk. Whatever happened at birth would determine the outcome for the child.

[Bunty]

Right, so then it also shouldnt matter to you what a woman does with her 3 year old toddler. If she decides to torture him with a curling iron, throw a cinder block on his head, then feed him to the dogs... what say do you have in it? After all, you are not capable of getting pregnant and giving birth to that child so you (nor the government local or federal..nor society in a general sense) have any understanding of the situation.

Good lord, get a grip on reality. There really is a huge, huge, difference between a fetus and a child of any age out of the womb. Please, Caboose, tell this forum why there can be not possibly be any difference, whatsoever. You too, RealJimbo.

[Prunepicker]

Why must people like Prunepicker so strongly and passionately believe that all
fetuses must be totally regarded as complete human beings with every right
imaginable?

Because they are. Is it going to become a tomato? A squirrel? A fire
hydrant? No. It's a human being. That's what humans begat. The always
have and always will.

[Caboose]

Good lord, get a grip on reality. There really is a huge, huge, difference between a fetus and a child of any age out of the womb. Please, Caboose, tell this forum why there can be not possibly be any difference, whatsoever. You too, RealJimbo.

Then tell us what it is, outside of one is in a womb and one is not.

[PennyQuilts]

Who really cares with heart and soul other than the pregnant woman?

I do. I'm not alone.

I also care about children that aren't mine. So do a lot of people.

And I care about old people who didn't raise me. So do other people.

Many fathers love their unborn children every bit as much as mothers with unborn children - but they have no say regarding whether those children live or die. Grandparents love unborn children. So do aunts and uncles, frequently. Or siblings.

[Bunty]

And so who am I to judge an answer for this when I have already wrote that I respect a woman's opinion more on abortion than a man's.

[PennyQuilts]

Of course, I'm not going to answer that question when a pregnant woman can do it much better from her point of view.

So one pregnant woman says her child is a person from conception - does that bind another? So, according to your logic, whether a fetus is human depends on the mindset of the mother? What about a mother in a coma from a car wreck? A 13 year old mother? A 30 year old mother? You logic doesn't follow. She sets the "value" on the life of the fetus under the current law but she can't change facts or the science of life one way or the other.

[Caboose]

So one pregnant woman says her child is a person from conception - does that bind another? So, according to your logic, whether a fetus is human depends on the mindset of the mother? What about a mother in a coma from a car wreck? A 13 year old mother? A 30 year old mother? You logic doesn't follow. She sets the "value" on the life of the fetus under the current law but she can't change facts or the science of life one way or the other.

Yes, in Bunty's world science and law are determined by the whims of 15 year old hormonal girls.

[RealJimbo]

Good lord, get a grip on reality. There really is a huge, huge, difference between a fetus and a child of any age out of the womb. Please, Caboose, tell this forum why there can be not possibly be any difference, whatsoever. You too, RealJimbo.

OK, but you first. What is this huge, huge difference between a fetus and a child of any age out of the womb? What is it? Waiting......tick tock.